Cable Break-in/adjustment period
Comments
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Try auditioning, say, AntiCables against a multistrand cable such as my Analysis Plus Oval Nine (both are relatively inexpensive BTW). The differences are rather obvious in a decent system.
My system is very modest but when I went from regular ol' 14 gauge wire to Anti-cables I could tell a difference for sure. I bought the anti-cables from someone off of here in the FM. Yes they are inexpensive but for the synergy of my system at the time they worked great. They provided me with better clarity,instruments had more weight to them, sounded more lifelike, and provided a much wider soundstage. Drums had more impact and now sounded like drums instead of someone just thumping on something. Now I have moved on to bigger and better imo and the Anti-cables are just sitting collecting dust. At the end of the day though, for those that cannot tell a difference, more power to ya'. You will end up saving money and you can use it to pay your internet bill so you can keep debating and beating this horse till it falls apart. -
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This PIE is no longer work safe.
Adios"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Where is John Wanye when we need him to set an example?
When did men start using smilely faces for communication?
That may have been a turning point for men.
I give up. You guys win.
Continue with your endless self serving circle logic of repitition and patting your own backs for being so clever.
It seems to be a circle jerk off here.
Just remember, "Empty barrels make the most noise."
And don't walk on real rocks that are hot. They will burn you. -
Confucious said over 200 years ago:
"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted."
It is a fact that listening to reproduced music is a highly subjective process built on observer bias and placebo.
It is a fact that blind testing is a process that removes the effect of observer bias and placebo.
I keep asking someone to explain how a test designed to remove the basic mechanisms of a process can be an effective evaluation tool for that process. Why is this so hard?
No competent and credible scientist, wanting to understand the workings of a particular process, would use an evaluation method that is crippling to the process under evaluation. This is what dishonest salesmen and con men do.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Your repsonse is the typical response to not trying higher end cables. What if you read from a very scientific POV that $3K cables made a difference and it was proven (to whatever standard you deem necessary) and you went out and bought them and didn't hear the difference the scientific study showed?
What would you do then? Believe it because science says so? Keep the cables since you foolishly spent $3K on them and tell people they were the greatest cables on Earth even though you couldn't hear a difference?zombie boy 2000 wrote: »In all fairness, your argument is a bit fallacious. You're presupposing two distinct realities coexisting. For example... if in an alternate reality, science says the sky is purple and dogs meow, than chances are that is the case. You can't really posit one fictional scenario and apply it to world in which we live.
ZB, I really don't see any fallacy in H9's argument. It seemed to me that he is not posing a fictional case in an alternate reality, but rather a very probable hypothetical case in the current reality.
The naysayers have said and continue to say that they would accept that there are differences in cables if they could only read a study written in a legitimate scientific journal. To me, this is like saying that they would accept Bluebell brand ice cream as the best in the world, and buy it, only if it is verified by test results published in a scientific journal. Even if the tests proved that Bluebell ice cream elicited the highest number of endorphins and other pleasure response chemicals in the brains of a large number of test subjects, that still does not mean a particular individual will have the same response.
Blind trials are effective tools for gaging the effects of drugs on a large controlled test population. Every drug on the market today is backed by years, sometimes decades, of clinical trials. Yet, there are always significant numbers of people for whom the exhaustively trialed drugs simply do not work.
The perception and enjoyment of music is a highly personal and subjective thing. I just don't see how it can be evaluated in objective terms from the listener's point of view.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
The perception and enjoyment of music is a highly personal and subjective thing. I just don't see how it can be evaluated in objective terms from the listener's point of view.
Hence my sig that I truly believe in:
Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I keep asking someone to explain how a test designed to remove the basic mechanisms of a process can be an effective evaluation tool for that process. Why is this so hard?
The only thing it removes is the identity of the cable, and the bias associated with that one item. The user still has his listening preferences, and the bias that goes along with it. The sound doesn't change by eliminating the knowledge of which cable is being used, unless it is all in your head.
If blind testing doesn't work for audio, please explain why there have been successful blind trials of speakers. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Confucious said over 200 years ago:
"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted."
It is a fact that listening to reproduced music is a highly subjective process built on observer bias and placebo.
It is a fact that blind testing is a process that removes the effect of observer bias and placebo.
I keep asking someone to explain how a test designed to remove the basic mechanisms of a process can be an effective evaluation tool for that process. Why is this so hard?
No competent and credible scientist, wanting to understand the workings of a particular process, would use an evaluation method that is crippling to the process under evaluation. This is what dishonest salesmen and con men do.
If you are admitting that differences in SQ are due to observer bias and placebo, then clearly it is not the cables qualities that are causing this varied perception. Give me $1000. I'll wrap a $100 Monster Cable in some nice sheathing and send it to you and you'll have $1000 sound!
Whether you believe this pseudoscience or not, this is a very fun read. A couple emails shot back and forth between the Vice President of Audioquest's Product Development and the President of Audioholics.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil/audioquest-responds-to-top-10-snake-oil-article
Check it out. -
Don't misunderstand me. I too love expectational bias and placebo effects. I bi-wire my Lsi9s. Do I have any proof that is helps with SQ? No. But it doesn't cost much more and if there's any truth to it, well... I won't be left out.
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Where is John Wanye when we need him to set an example?
When did men start using smilely faces for communication?
That may have been a turning point for men.
I give up. You guys win.
Continue with your endless self serving circle logic of repitition and patting your own backs for being so clever.
It seems to be a circle jerk off here.
Just remember, "Empty barrels make the most noise."
And don't walk on real rocks that are hot. They will burn you.
They are called 'emoticons'. It is hard to read typed words and comprehend the emotion that they were written with. That's why we have exclamation marks, question marks, emoticons, etc. That is a pretty ignorant statement, suggesting that real men don't use emoticons. It kind of dilutes the weight of your other opinions. Also, the arrogance, 'cleverness' and 'patting on the back' works on both sides. In general, both sides think they are more clever than the other hence the arguments. Same with the barrels making noise. Both sides are just as noisy. How does it work just one way in your opinion?2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
I don't know what's funnier, the passion of the nay-sayers or the tags attached to the thread.
I used to be a non-believer once upon a time, thinking that cables made a negligible difference. New speakers, new power amp and it all changed...
Is a $7k cable better than a $1k cable? Maybe, maybe not, depends who's listening to it and what their system consists of. I don't believe that any cable is "better" than another, just different, if you cant hear any differences, you should count yourself lucky!!!
If you know your set up well enough (and the resolution is there), you should hear a difference...
Don't feed the trolls, the ignore button is your friend, embrace it.In terms of audio, i truly feel sorry for the visually impaired. How can they know what they like if they cant read google?
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=86838 -
"When you change to new cables, there may appear to be an audible difference. If this seems to be for the better, well and good - you'll keep the cables. If the cables seem marginally worse than the old ones, the 'break in improvement' claim will encourage you to persevere with them for a while. Over this time your auditory system will habituate to the new sound balance, resulting in a perceived improvement. If you then swap back to the old cables for a 'fair' comparison, they will probably sound worse, as you are now adjusted to the new ones. "
-Gene DellaSala -
"When you change to new cables, there may appear to be an audible difference. If this seems to be for the better, well and good - you'll keep the cables. If the cables seem marginally worse than the old ones, the 'break in improvement' claim will encourage you to persevere with them for a while. Over this time your auditory system will habituate to the new sound balance, resulting in a perceived improvement. If you then swap back to the old cables for a 'fair' comparison, they will probably sound worse, as you are now adjusted to the new ones. "
-Gene DellaSala
Not if you are an acute listener and really know the rest of your system. I just demoed an entire set of MIT CVT Terminator 2's (I/C's and speaker cables). These replaced older Termintor 2 I/C's and speaker cables. The CVT's were fully broken in (and a completely different design and material than the original T2's). I had them in my system for 4 weeks. The CVT's are a lot more expensive than my older T2's.
After 4 weeks I really disliked certain attributes of the sound in my system to the point where I thought something might be wrong. When my demo time was done with the CVT's and put the T2's back in. Viola, the system attributes I liked were back.
I wanted to like the CVT's and they were on my WTB list, but after demoing them in my system, in my environment I am glad I didn;t purchase them.......I would have been disappointed because they sound different enough to what I was using in the first place. The difference wasn;t positive.
H9
P.s. Point being I never adjusted to the sound of the newer designed more expensive cables."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
polkie4life wrote: »I
Don't feed the trolls, the ignore button is your friend, embrace it.
Where is the ignore button, seriously is there one ?Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
DK... please don't misread me. I'm squarely in H9's camp. I just felt as a Philosophy major (with a slight bent on Advanced Logic), that Senor Heiney's take had a hole. Again, I just wouldn't want the hyenas to run rampant with the proverbial "carcass".
I suppose if the analogy wasn't so extreme, than it would be easier to digest. Maybe a revision is in order? Either way, anyone that can sing the praises of Monarchy has nothing but respect from my angle.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
Where is the ignore button, seriously is there one ?
User CP upper left, edit ignore list.
I was on here a long time ago (different user name). I had only 2 on there CL35 and one other. This time around i have several (16ish). It really is a great feature, not having to sift through the BS and worthless posts, that seem to over-run the forum.
It used to be a really helpful place, full of friendly banter, and most all a passion for polk. It certainly has changed, you only need look at some posters history to see a lot came here with the sole intent of trolling...In terms of audio, i truly feel sorry for the visually impaired. How can they know what they like if they cant read google?
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=86838 -
Where is the ignore button, seriously is there one ?
click on their name - select view public profile
when their window pops up click on user lists
there you will find the ignore button -
Dragon... I kind of think Bike makes a valid point in that respect. I belong to several forums which completely disallow emoticons of any kind simply because they feel that we are intelligent enough to convey what we mean without resorting to such.
Leave it to 4Chan, MySpace, and YouTube for the endless onslaught of "LOL"'s, "STFU"'s, and "GrL U HaWt u RawK ;')""s. We're better than that.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I spent a lot of money in expensive cables, and now there are a couple of people that say there's no scientific proof that they sound better??
I hate you guys. And I'm going to talk with my lawyer about this._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
I see that, at this point, some reminder and clarification is needed. This public service announcement is offered in the interest of preventing individuals on my ignore list from wasting time addressing comments to me. I always notify individuals when they have been "upgraded" to "ignored" status. The most recent example can be seen here. Citing Audioholics.com as a credible source of performance audio related information earns an immediate upgrade to ignored status.
First, please understand that I am interested in pursuing high performance audio and video systems. Like others interested in the pursuit of high performance anything, I enjoy the camaraderie, advice, and information derived from interaction and discussion with other individuals who have the same hobbyist goals or who aspire to the same goals...even when they have disagree with my viewpoints.
You should understand that I believe that two can't walk together unless they have the game goal. Two travelers can take different paths to get to the same destination and they can discuss ad infinitum on whether it is best to travel to Los Angeles by rail or by air. Each transportation method has its advantages and disadvantages. However, each traveler can have a mutually beneficial discourse because they are trying to get to the same place. Now, what if another traveler tries to inject himself into the discussion by railing against mechanized transport and that it would be better to get to New York by walking or by horse driven carriage because it is so much better for the environment? First, the first two travelers are not interested in going to New York. They want to go to Los Angeles. Second, they want to get there by mechanized and professionally guided transport.
At the risk of sounding elitist, I must advise that if you are not pursuing mid to high performance audio and video or have some aspirations for doing so, then I really have little to no interest in talking to you about audio or video related topics. We simply don't inhabit the same hobbyist space and have little to nothing in common.
Audio/video naysayers, once they are identified and I have had all the fun I want "playing" with them, are cheerfully added to my ignore list. Therefore, the only way I see a naysayer's comments is if one of my audiophile friends or audiophile aspirants quotes them in one of their posts.
Several of us have asked the forum administration to modify the forum software so that the comments of ignored individuals do not show up in quotes, similar to the way that ignored individuals cannot send us private messages and similar to the way that we do not receive email notification when an ignored individual posts to a thread that we are subscribed to.
If I comment on a post that has a quote from an ignored individual, that individual should understand that I am not speaking to them, but rather to the person that quoted the ignored individual or I am speaking in general to the other non-ignored thread participants.
FYI, the picture below gives some insight into what I see when an "ignored" individual makes a post
Hope this helps.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
zombie boy 2000 wrote: »DK... please don't misread me. I'm squarely in H9's camp.
ZB, I understand that. I just genuinely didn't see any fallacy in H9's argument.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DK... When I claimed a "slight bent" in Advanced Logic, I never meant to infer that I was a master of said domain. To be honest, Ethics and Cultural Anthropology were more my bag.
I could see where I might have strayed off the path, but my intentions were ultimately good (however paved to hell they were).
Viva La Cables!!!I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
zombie boy 2000 wrote: »...but my intentions were ultimately good (however paved to hell they were).
Again, I realize that. I could have been more clear that I was asking for clarification rather than disagreeing with you.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
zombie boy 2000 wrote: »DK... When I claimed a "slight bent" in Advanced Logic, I never meant to infer that I was a master of said domain. To be honest, Ethics and Cultural Anthropology were more my bag.
I could see where I might have strayed off the path, but my intentions were ultimately good (however paved to hell they were).
Viva La Cables!!!
Good areas IMHO....you must be familiar with the Raven paradox then? A little C. Anthropology 'never' hurt anyone...and has helped many come to terms with the ethnocentrism found in EVERY culture!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
I am open to host a test with any naysayer in Dallas Fort Worth area that has contributed to club polk and an hoest to god open mind to hear the immediate differences with a Monster digital coaxcable and a Kimber Kable D-60 cable. The difference between a $7 (monster new, marked down from $27 at Radio Shack) and a demo/used $179 KK.
The differences are immediately heard and well worth the money for KK. My fear is the naysays will not be opened minded enough to really hear the difference.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
Good areas IMHO....you must be familiar with the Raven paradox then? A little C. Anthropology 'never' hurt anyone...and has helped many come to terms with the ethnocentrism found in EVERY culture!
cnh
You had me at Joseph Campbell.
And as for the Raven paradox....
very appropriate to this discussion. Good call.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
At the risk of sounding elitist, I must advise that if you are not pursuing mid to high performance audio and video or have some aspirations for doing so, then I really have little to no interest in talking to you about audio or video related topics. We simply don't inhabit the same hobbyist space and have little to nothing in common.
In other words if they don't agree with you, you don't want to talk to them. The very idea that those who don't buy into the cable myth are not seeking high performance audio, is a joke.Audio/video naysayers, once they are identified and I have had all the fun I want "playing" with them, are cheerfully added to my ignore list. Therefore, the only way I see a naysayer's comments is if one of my audiophile friends or audiophile aspirants quotes them in one of their posts.
So you keep asking questions of those you disagree with, but you don't see their replies. Looks more like you can't hold up your end of the discussion. What a clown. -
My fear is the naysays will not be opened minded enough to really hear the difference.
You're looking for a naysayer with an open mind? Really? You would have better luck finding a casino that routinely forgives gambling debts.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”
