17yr old shot dead next street from me
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A lot of you guys are framing this as if the homeowner started out his night with the intent to murder a 17-year old boy. Try to dial down your righteous indignation for 14 seconds, and imagine yourself, sitting on your sofa in the living room, watching TV. A 6'3" PERSON, whose age you don't know, walks into your apartment, and when you tell him to leave, he gets belligerent and starts fighting with you. YOu have a shotgun handy , you get it, the intruder tries to take it from you. You fire.
It's not the ideal scenario of how this could have played out. I seriously, seriously doubt that the homeowner WANTED to kill some kid that night, or felt good about it afterwards. I doubt anyone in this thread would feel "good" about it afterwards - we speak cavalierly because the action is JUSTIFIED, not because it's PLEASANT. There's a distinction. There are lots of things you can believe in that you wo uldn't WANT to do, but forced to you understand that you would have to do them.
Everything else here is a red herring.
- The kid's age - irrelevant, the homeowner had no way of knowing it, especially given the physical description of the kid.
- Not dialing 911? At what point in the described scenario would THAT have happened? Yeah, I'm going by the shooter's account of the events, but even if the "victim" were alive, do you really think his account would be the truth? He walked into someone's home and started a fight with them, how much credence are we putting in his story, were he still alive? If the perp HAD had a weapon, which the homeowner had no way of knowing, all calling the police would have done was made him dead with a phone in his hand.
- Having an unlocked door? How the hell does THAT matter? If this kid were a rapist, and some woman's home were unlocked, would she be partly at fault for his raping for not locking her door? Keeping a door unlocked isn't any kind of justification for breaking an entering, and especially not a justification for being beligerent and refusing to leave when asked.
And I hate to respond to this idiocy, but I have to mention it :Ender wrote:I love how people keep referring to Darwin when Darwin basically didn't know squat. Current evolution theory is so far beyond the scope of Darwin that he wouldn't even know where to begin studying. Survival of the fittest isn't really a solid theory.
Same thing with Freud... He was almost a raving lunatic.
Sorry for the derail, but it just kind of annoys me when people use Darwin as some kind of qualifying evidence or support.
What planet-changing theories or philosophies have YOU come up with in your life, exactly? Darwin may have oversimplified the "survival of the fittest" method of evolution but he brought a revolutionary idea to the public conscious when such an idea was considered blasphemy. He encouraged scientific thought about something that no one had ever publicly thoguth about before. And "survival of the fittest", while not a perfect model for EVOLUTION, is certainly a valid societal analogy. In most non-human societies, the strongest survive. We have made a society that protects the weak, but when nature rears its ugly head like in this situation, it's good old fashioned survival of the fittest / strongest, is it not?
As for Freud, people who have taken 2 Psych classes in their lives love to get all pompous about Freud because teh guy was a coked out whacko, but most of his theories about how childhood experiences, especially your parents, shape the psychology of adults were revolutionary, and are the basis for most modern Psych theory. Just because you're a lunatic doesn't mean you're wrong.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
point is in all this, the kid was unarmed and **** up, the owner was a total f**king ****
You sir are an idiot if you really believe this. -
LessisNevermore wrote: »If the kid has yet to be identified, how do they know he was 17?
They had identified him, they just didnt let the name out to the public until family had been notified.Slow you are being a total idiot. I have had/been around guns my whole life. Your ricochet theory has more holes in it than a sieve. If ricochets were 180 then they would be very predictable. I would give you a shovel, but you are doing just fine on your own.
Thanks
Ben
That was john locke's ricochet theory
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Here is the "Kids" myspace page....stoned and throwing up gang signs saying he was from Murderapolis Minnesota
http://www.myspace.com/tha_city612
Even in the cleanest picture the family could provide of him for the article ...before getting stoned and holding a baby no less....he is wearing the backwards "Pride" cap and a shirt with a skull with bullet holes in it.
He had already entered TWO more houses down the street before catching his lead prize in the third.
"The family isnt sure why Joel LaFromboise wandered into at least three strangers apartments before his death. "
A 6'3" belligerent gang sign throwing fool cant be considered a "Kid" by anybody....his actions got him killed....as well as they should have....end of story.
The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club -
What a douchebag
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Thank god I live in Canada! We got off the COWBOY era many moons ago! Nuff said!
I thank God you live in Canada, too.:p"SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
If this is a pic of him holding his own child ( I am assuming it is his child), then this whole story really supports the case FOR birth control.
Not trying to be mean-spirited, but now what happens to the baby? -
Running at someone with a shotgun.....FOR THE LOSS.
honestly, that choice alone tells us that the "fail" was strong with that one :rolleyes: Can't say it enough, when your drunk, your responsible for your own actions.
anywhoo, there might very well be facts about this case we do not know. Maybe the shooter knew this person and used this as a grand oppurtunity to off someone he doesnt know. who knows, who cares. At face value seems like a very justifiable shooting, espescially if there was a scuffle.
I do know that some people here have very warped views on gun usage.spelling isnt the issue here ric , opinions are! If i had a shotgun aimin at some1 ,then if they charged i would drop it a couple of inches and go for the legs ,its that simple
seriously? Brotha, I dont know who gave you safety/gun/martial arts training, but that guy should be slapped. get your money back, 'cause you were trained all kinds of wrong.
it sounds like I'm busting your balls but I'm not. I take safety, self defence, and martial arts seriously, and this statement is wrong on so many levels I can't count. wandering through life with some of the conceptions of self defense you outlayed in this thread alone tells me you have a significant chance of getting hurt or killed during your life. I'm serious here.
get your learn on my friend.........judging by the neighborhood you live in, your life may depend on it.Living Room 2 Channel -
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Just sitting here reading the news , and I think I found the fellow that gave Slowpolky his firearms training.......:D
" During a trial in 2006, following which he was acquitted of raping a woman who he knew to be HIV positive, he informed the court that following sex with the woman he had taken a shower as he believed that it would prevent, or at least reduce the chances of, infection. "The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club -
You only point a gun at someone if you intend to KILL them, PERIOD."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
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He should have baked him a pie."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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However in Canada you would more likely wind-up in jail for a long time not counting the suits against you. The law will sometime get someone to go further than the finger that presses the trigger. Unless you are a total nut case there might be tiny bit of brain cell that might work for you telling you that free killing can bring a lot of pain for your self!Even in Canada, you can find hunting. It's not uncommon to have a shutgun locked up in the basement.
You come beating on my door and yelling, I very well might load up some 20 ga. buckshot. If you're in my house and I have a gun in your face, you should leave. If you do not leave, I don't plan on letting your hands touch the gun.
It's never safe to break into peeps cribs and scare the **** out of them. It doesn't matter how wasted or feverish you might be; a lethal threat is a lethal threat.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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Free killing? What do they put in the water up there?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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However in Canada you would more likely wind-up in jail for a long time not counting the suits against you. The law will sometime get someone to go further than the finger that presses the trigger. Unless you are a total nut case there might be tiny bit of brain cell that might work for you telling you that free killing can bring a lot of pain for your self!
No disrespect to you, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I live in Canada and you can bet if someone entered my home uninvited I would not think twice about crushing someones skull with a baseball bat and ask questions after. There are a lot of sick fu##s in the world these days and I won't take the chance that someone may hurt my wife or kids. If a court could find me guilty and sentence me to jail I would still be happy with myself knowing that I protected my family. I won't take any chances.Polk RTi 8's
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"It's futile to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person." demaples July 29/08 -
The problem is the thruth will never come out. Young men is dead and can not give his side of the story. Story then can be made up at will!We need more facts. What really happened, etc. This is a very emotionally charged issue but who knows what happened. A hot head with a gun or just some guy protecting his family?
If the guy dusted this kid when all he did was wander in by mistake, charge the hell out of him.
If the kid was threatening or belligerent, give the guy (the shooter) the benefit of the doubt.
:D ChrisDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
The problem is the thruth will never come out. Young men is dead and can not give his side of the story. Story then can be made up at will!
And your first and only reaction is to blame the person whose home was broken into, while completely absolving the person who broke, entered, and assaulted someone in their own home.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
shadowofnight wrote: »Here is the "Kids" myspace page....stoned and throwing up gang signs saying he was from Murderapolis Minnesota
Even in the cleanest picture the family could provide of him for the article ...before getting stoned and holding a baby no less....he is wearing the backwards "Pride" cap and a shirt with a skull with bullet holes in it.
Classy.
As far as all the shoot to kill stuff...yeah, if you are unwilling or incapable of pulling the trigger, never point your weapon at anyone.
I don't think my .22 target rifle will take anyone down even with a 15 shot capacity but I know my breaker bar will. Ever see what 3 feet of drop forged steel with a tempered steel knuckle on the end will do to a human skull? Or bone for that matter? No, I haven't either. But I know what it can do to a 2x4 when swung with enough force and that is MUCH stronger than bone. One good whack anywhere on an attacker with that and they are going to be hurtin' bad.
Would I be able to swing it fast enough? Maybe, maybe not. But if it's a maybe not, I probably wouldn't have had a chance with a gun either.
That's just a tool but I promise, it is a capable multi-tasker for sheer destruction and even even as a lethal weapon. I guess that puts me in caveman times since I'd be clubbing someone with a large, metal stick.
It's not about the weapon you chose, it's about the intent of your force. Do you want to do harm or do you want to stop a person dead in their tracks? I know, for me, a 6 foot 3 guy is considerably bigger than me. If I was twice his age, that two strikes against me. I'm going to use an equalizer.
See, the problem with TECHNOKID, apphd and slowpolky is that you silly folks think this would have been a fair fight and the intruder could be reasoned with.
1. He was anebriated in some way. So much so that he walked into the wrong house 3 TIMES!
2. Because he walked in to the WRONG HOUSE even once, he was obviously not in full possession of his faculties thereby not very rational at all.
3. The home owner was over twice his age and in addition to protecting himself and his home he had another life in his charge.
4. The kid, whether the door was locked or not, broke and entered.
5. The home owner obviously told him to leave as well as the FIRST person who he walked in on. The guy who shot him was not first in line to encounter him.
That's 5 items right there that tell me that the guy acted with due diligence and the kid had all the opportunity in the world to get outta dodge. He didn't. He attacked a man in his own home, whether he was trying to remove the gun from the owner's possession to preserve his own life or not is not the case. That wasn't one of his options. His options were leave or get shot. He chose C and got the simplest test in the world wrong and got shot.
It's not "cowboy mentality", it's a man with multiple disadvantages using his resources to put the odds back in his favor. If it was me, I would have done something to incapacitate the individual myself.
Even from a young age I was always taught that fighting is the last resort but if it had to come to it, you'd better be willing to take the fight farther than your opponent and make sure you opponent doesn't get up. If he/she does, they can still harm you. I have ended every fight with the other person either pinned on the ground, out cold or hurt so bad they cannot stand anymore. That's how it is. I will walk away much more often than take a swing. But if you swing at me, you're in for a hurtin'.
Lastly, the most important thing I was ever told about fighting was by my uncle who said "There's no such thing as a fair fight."
Remember, he brings a stick, you bring a knife, he brings a knife, you bring a gun, he brings a gun you bring a bigger gun...
Fighting is not about evening the odds, gentlemen. It's about getting the odds in your favor. Every fight should be approached as a threat to your life otherwise you will underestimate your opponent and you'll be dead yourself.Expert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
I have pity for the dead boy but I have even more sympathy for the guy who has to shoot him down. It's going to stay with him for the rest of his life while trying to protect himself and his family. Killing is easy but forgetting the memory ain't unless he is a blood thirsty psycho running on steroid. This is another mess up story in our part of the world.
It makes me wonder how the parents of the boy raises him up. They are to blame for their son to be a drunk head and intrude into someone's property and get himself killed.
17 yrs is a young man...Not a small kid. But If I were the homeowner defending him, I would put some senses into him with a baseball bat to sober him.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Well I read about half the posts in this thread and for everyone that says they would do this or that you are wrong. You honestly dont think straight when someone breaks into your house. It happened to me the day after I graduated highschool The person came into my house thru an open window. My dad fired warning shots and the intruder rushed him so he shot twice one in the leg the other in the neck. I thank my dad for protecting my family everyday who knows what could have happened. Please have some sort of respect for people that protect their families. I dont know anyone that wouldnt protect one of their familys from an intruder.
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This thread is a gigantic train wreck.
17 year old got what he had coming.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
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Change your "smart" comment for "barbaric" and we are on the same page! Yep, many of the posters still live in Tombstone! I guess for some 2009 reality is still to take the law in to their own hands! Has man kind truly evolved :rolleyes:Your "reality 2009" is a joke.
Mr. Allen did what any smart person should do in that situation and he should get a medal for it. I'd have no problem shaking his hand.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
More likely a COWARD!point is in all this, the kid was unarmed and **** up, the owner was a total f**king ****DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Change your "smart" comment for "barbaric" and we are on the same page! Yep, many of the posters still live in Tombstone! I guess for some 2009 reality is still to take the law in to their own hands! Has man kind truly evolved :rolleyes:
I've read a lot of stupid comments on here over the years, but yours takes the cake. I've got $10.00 that says you'd crap your shorts before you even got to a phone. :rolleyes:Political Correctness'.........defined
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I am just done here with this thread. Perhaps we should thank this guy for performing a retroactive abortion. I bet the people upset by the death of this 17 year old would have given less than a F@#K if the kid was aborted in the first place.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
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Change your "smart" comment for "barbaric" and we are on the same page! Yep, many of the posters still live in Tombstone! I guess for some 2009 reality is still to take the law in to their own hands! Has man kind truly evolved :rolleyes:
I'd rather "take the law into my own hands" than stand by and watch my family be killed while I waited for police to show up and clean up the mess. I hope you don't have anyone under your care; they're as good as dead if anything happens.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
It is no different today then it was back in the days of Cro magnon man or 10 million years from now, you have the right to defend yourself in your own house cave or space ship. 99.9 % of the time a gun whether it be a pistol shotgun or rifle is a very effective deterrent against having to actually commit violence against someone else. There are several comments here about using other weapons to defend ones self which is all well and good but unless you are 100% sure that the intruder wont take your chosen weapon away from you and use it against you a gun is your "smart" option because you can fire at a distance without putting yourself at risk.Change your "smart" comment for "barbaric" and we are on the same page! Yep, many of the posters still live in Tombstone! I guess for some 2009 reality is still to take the law in to their own hands! Has man kind truly evolved :rolleyes:
Sure you might be able to defend yourself if your a 47 year old out of shape overweight average homeowner against a 6'3 crazed drugged up young man in most likely the best shape of his life with a club of some sort but why put yourself at risk?
This fellow gave him every oppurtunity to back down and go away up to not firing until he was struggling for possesion of the gun anyone in there right mind would have done the same thing at that point.
Its not like he blasted the kid as soon as he walked through the door without any warning, he was asked to leave then told to leave at threat of getting shot the kid "CHOSE" to fight, the wild west Tombstone inferences dont even apply here.
Just out of curiosty what would you have done?
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
If I point a gun at somebody, it isn't a joke. I'm not going to aim for a leg or an arm or the weapon they are holding (or in this case, not holding). I don't intend to hurt someone and listen to them scream or give them the chance to retaliate or pretend to be some damned gunfighter that I'm not.
If I point a gun at somebody, I'm going to kill them. A bullet isn't supposed to slow someone down or make them think about what their next move is. A bullet is supposed to stop someone and make sure they never think again. Plain and simple.
Would I do this lightly? Hell no. I would never ever ever condone the killing of anyone when I feel there is a chance of ending a confrontation otherwise.
If a 6ft 3in 8 year old came into my house and started to get violent to the point that I feel the need to pull out a gun... Well... I'm a smallish-guy with a smallish wife and a baby... I'm sorry, but that's one large 8 year old that will be buried.
As far as picking a weapon... Given time, I have great aim. If a mammoth-sized drunken gang member comes storming at me, I know I don't have time. A shotgun would be fine.
Now, I respect life but most especially when my life is respected. When someone violently pushes their way into a home, goes straight for where the kids normally are, gets violent and refuses to leave (violent and confrontational), that someone isn't respecting my life, nor any of the things that make my life safe and secure. You aren't "scaring" me or "dissin'" me... At that point, you are a threat to life. My home. My family. My life.
I don't own a gun right now. I'm pretty sure that I'd really really hate myself if I used it. I'd always think that if I were a couple seconds earlier or later with some action that there could have been another answer. Sometimes though, fellas... There isn't another answer. One of those times is when there is a large drunken **** charging through your house obviously looking to hurt somebody and he just went into your kids room.
Of course, this is my opinion.
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I dont think I have ever seen a thread where so many had the right idea on self/family preservation....and just a few that have absolutely no clue how the world really works.
For the few that are calling the homeowner a ****/coward/barbaric.....here is a video ( Some need visual stimulation...reading and comprehending may be a little too difficult ) as to why you have to end the threat immediately when faced with an intruder that has entered your home.
Even if he appears unarmed...nothing you can see in his hands....and you just want to baseball bat/crowbar/shoot him in the leg ( That one was so retarded I couldnt even bring myself to post a reply to it....thankfully others did ) ....inside your home with your families lives at stake....in 2 seconds he could produce a weapon to end all of your lives.
Having a drawn out conversation with an intruder is not a viable option...unless his **** is on fire from going supersonic in the opposite direction away from myself and my families direction...he is a dead man.
As mentioned already...if he would have turned and ran the homeowner would not have shot him...he could have lived to eat a few more shrooms and enjoy life. The homeowner was actually pretty stupid to let him get close enough to grab the shotgun....one aggresive move after being warned he would be shot and killed in self defense is all it takes ( Either coming towards the homeowner or reaching into his pants/under a shirt as shown in the video....both of those are fearing for your life and shooting to stop the threat )
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zWF5TyLca1w&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zWF5TyLca1w&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club
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