17yr old shot dead next street from me

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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited June 2009
    Did anyone card this larger 6'3" "kid" before they shot him? Just curious?
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • snow
    snow Posts: 4,337
    edited June 2009
    Ender wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about the guy in the article. I was talking about the responses in this thread. Just startles me how people in the thread say they would have done the same thing. No warning shot. No calling the police. Just shot him. Even the wife didn't go to call the police until after the boy was shot.
    Well since I wasnt there and dont know the layout of the house and where the phone was at it's certainly possible that the phone could have been on the other side of where the kid was and she couldndt reach it? who knows. I am pretty certain this entire event unfolded rapidly most likely in less than 2 minutes and almost certainly no more than 5 minutes. As far as a warning shot goes when someone points a shotgun at you and asks you to leave and you dont leave but charge the holder of the weapon and he doesnt actually shoot until your fighting for possesion of it thats plenty warning enough, most likely the owner didnt even have time to react with any sort of warning shot before the assailant had closed the distance.

    I feel bad that it happened but the fact the owner didnt shoot until the kid was actually struggling with him for the weapon say's a lot in my oppinion. He could if wanted shot him long before this took place.




    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    yeah well he at least should have offerd him a sandwich
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited June 2009
    Ender wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about the guy in the article. I was talking about the responses in this thread. Just startles me how people in the thread say they would have done the same thing. No warning shot. No calling the police. Just shot him. Even the wife didn't go to call the police until after the boy was shot.

    a warning shot? Are you serious?

    Let's see, youre in an apartment. If youre on the bottom floor, shoot down...oh wait, thats concrete. Concrete will send ricochet buck shot everywhere. Well lets shoot up? Hope you're not on the bottom floor, you might have just shot and killed someone upstairs. Well, okay, lets shoot at the walls? Hope you're not adjoined to anyone, you just killed them too. Or maybe you're on the end, shoot pointing towards outside...well damn, theres a sidewalk and could possibly have someone walking on it.

    Sorry dude, but you're an idiot, are you reading the article? THE KID IS 6'3" AND WENT AND GRABBED THE GUYS GUN WHILE HE WAS HOLDING IT AT HIM. You think if he dialed the police as soon as he could have, they would have got there before it escalated to the point where he grabbed his gun? Hell no. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

    If someone walks into my house acting like an idiot and I think he might try to harm me, and if i have my choice between a gun and a phone...what is the reasonable thing to grab?

    Wow, just WOW.
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited June 2009
    apphd wrote: »
    You can choose to be a victom or choose not to be a victom, through many different ways.;)

    To me, it's where I live and how I live. The other .000001 percent is fate. But I sleep well. Chris :):):)
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited June 2009
    double post?
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    the reasonable thing to grab if the ham, cheese and ranch..... so you can offer him a sandwich
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited June 2009
    It all depends on whether there are victims prints on the barrel.

    "then walked into a vacant bd room"

    Is that just a rumour?
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    the guy had a teenage daughter and she said that , he just went down to lay in the bedroom screaming louder than she had heard any1 before
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  • Rivrrat
    Rivrrat Posts: 2,101
    edited June 2009
    I love this "I would've called the police" response. IF this kid meant to do them harm, which now I doubt but who knows at that moment, they'd be dead now.

    All I can say is I glad there's castle laws in Az. You come into my house uninvited, and I can use lethal force, period.
    My equipment sig felt inadequate and deleted itself.
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    MOORHEAD – Police have identified a 17-year-old Moorhead male shot and killed by a resident who encountered the teen intruder in his apartment early this morning.

    Vernon Albert Allen wasn’t charged with a crime after being detained by police for questioning since early this morning, Moorhead Police Lt. Tory Jacobson said in a news release about 4 p.m.

    “After careful consideration and consultation with the Clay County Attorney’s Office, Mr. Allen is no longer being detained and there are no criminal charges pending against him,” Jacobson said.

    “Mr. Allen has been cooperative with the investigation and has the right to return home at this time after a very disturbing critical incident,” he said later.

    Allen shot and killed the teen at 12:06 a.m. today after the male entered his upstairs apartment at 1103 19th St. S. in Moorhead. Allen yelled at the teen to leave and when he didn’t, a physical fight broke out, according to police. Allen then grabbed his shotgun and the intruder was shot in the chest or abdomen during a struggle.

    Police today asked for assistance in identifying the deceased teen, who was transported to the Ramsey County Medical Examiner Office for examination.

    Jacobson said police are withholding the teen's identity pending notification of his family.

    Police and witnesses say the teen who was shot had first entered an unlocked downstairs apartment in the four-plex, where resident Sara Graham scared him away.

    Graham said in an interview late Saturday morning that she didn’t know who he was and told him to get out.

    After he left without incident, Graham said she ran out her apartment building and down the driveway, thinking she was chasing after him.

    Then she heard a bang.

    Going back to her apartment, Graham met the intruder again going into her apartment a second time. He then made his way into her daughters’ unoccupied bedroom where he collapsed, she said. He was bleeding from a gunshot wound to his chest and wailing uncontrollably, Graham said.

    “There’s nothing like the sound of a grown man when he cries when he’s been shot,” Graham said.

    Graham said her two daughters, ages 11 and 8, were at their grandmother’s house Saturday.

    At the same time Graham was following the intruder into her own apartment, her upstairs neighbor, Allen, called 911 to say he had shot an intruder in his apartment.

    The teen who was shot received medical attention at the apartment, police said, and was transported to Innovis Health in Fargo, where he died.

    Allen told police that the intruder was intoxicated.

    Late this morning, a man sitting outside 1107 19th St. S., the neighboring apartment complex, who identified himself as David Allen, Vernon Albert Allen’s brother said his brother must have been protecting himself.

    “Knowing my brother it had to be self-defense,” David Allen said. “He’s the caretaker (for the apartment building). When something happens, he calls the cops and gets them involved.”

    He added that he’d been in his brother’s apartment after the shooting and that it appeared there was a struggle. He said there was blood in the apartment. Neighbors said the street and the two apartment buildings that share a parking lot were cordoned off with police tape in the early morning hours after the shooting. Late Saturday morning drops of blood dotted the carpeted stairway from the upstairs apartment down to Graham’s apartment.

    According to public records, Vernon A. Allen, 47, previously lived in Buffalo, N.D., and Fargo.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,460
    edited June 2009
    If that's the case, you must be very familiar with the feeling associated with bringing a Popsicle to a gun fight.

    Post of the week!!!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • JohnLocke88
    JohnLocke88 Posts: 1,150
    edited June 2009
    exalted512 wrote: »
    a warning shot? Are you serious?

    Let's see, youre in an apartment. If youre on the bottom floor, shoot down...oh wait, thats concrete. Concrete will send ricochet buck shot everywhere.

    If you want to get technical, it will ricochet at an angle equal to 180 degrees minus x (being the downward angle of the shotgun), not "everywhere." Other factors such as the thickness of the carpet and the padding underneath with mitigate ricochet to a negligible amount.

    exalted512 wrote: »
    Well lets shoot up? Hope you're not on the bottom floor, you might have just shot and killed someone upstairs. Well, okay, lets shoot at the walls? Hope you're not adjoined to anyone, you just killed them too. Or maybe you're on the end, shoot pointing towards outside...well damn, theres a sidewalk and could possibly have someone walking on it.

    Agreed. Those are not viable options.

    exalted512 wrote: »
    Sorry dude, but you're an idiot, are you reading the article? THE KID IS 6'3" AND WENT AND GRABBED THE GUYS GUN WHILE HE WAS HOLDING IT AT HIM.

    Yep, pretty stupid decision. But from a civil/legal stand point, the home owner escalated to deadly force before the 'perpetrator.'
    exalted512 wrote: »
    You think if he dialed the police as soon as he could have, they would have got there before it escalated to the point where he grabbed his gun? Hell no. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

    Doesn't matter from a civil law suit stand point; the Fact that he had time to grab that shotgun, but not to dial 911 and leave the phone off the hook will be a damaging piece of evidence in a civil suit.
    exalted512 wrote: »
    If someone walks into my house acting like an idiot and I think he might try to harm me, and if i have my choice between a gun and a phone...what is the reasonable thing to grab?

    Dial 911, then grab the shot gun.
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    very well putt john
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited June 2009
    JohnLocke88 wrote: »
    Dial 911, then grab the shot gun.
    Your first concern should be self preservation, not someone's who is intruding into your home.

    And any firearms course will tell you, NEVER, EVER fire a warning shot! Why endanger more innocent parties?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • exalted512
    exalted512 Posts: 10,735
    edited June 2009
    JohnLocke88 wrote: »
    If you want to get technical, it will ricochet at an angle equal to 180 degrees minus x (being the downward angle of the shotgun), not "everywhere." Other factors such as the thickness of the carpet and the padding underneath with mitigate ricochet to a negligible amount.
    You dont think the carpet/padding has the ability to change directory? What about when it bounces back off the stove or something else?
    JohnLocke88 wrote: »
    Yep, pretty stupid decision. But from a civil/legal stand point, the home owner escalated to deadly force before the 'perpetrator.'

    Depends on where you live. If someone comes in my house threatening me, I do not know if they have a weapon, and it takes less than a second for someone to pull a gun out of their waist band and shoot.

    By your logic, you have to wait until someone uses deadly force against you before you use it against them? Hope you're a quick draw.

    JohnLocke88 wrote: »
    Doesn't matter from a civil law suit stand point; the Fact that he had time to grab that shotgun, but not to dial 911 and leave the phone off the hook will be a damaging piece of evidence in a civil suit.

    Dial 911, then grab the shot gun.
    The FACT is he had to protect his family FIRST. My family comes FIRST. I dont give a flying crap about a god damn telephone when someone is breaking into my house. I dont have a land line, you know how many times its taken me 15 minutes to find my damn cell phone before I go to work? My 12 gauge stays in the same place.

    The day you have to grab a phone before a gun to protect yourself from a home invasion, is the day you might lose your life.
    -Cody
    Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    all the facts aint concrete as of yet
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  • fatchowmein
    fatchowmein Posts: 2,637
    edited June 2009
    The problem with dialing 911 first is that you and those around you may not be around to hear that 911 recording in court.

    Escape. If you can't, act defensively (barricade, weapon, etc). Lastly, call for the calvery. You all probably heard it many times, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away."

    When a stranger is standing in your home, you don't have time to pull his credit report and find out what his intentions are.

    On the other hand, I feel you have every right to engage a stranger standing in your home anyway you like. If it's your belief that the best method is to call 911, knock yourself out. Just don't infringe on my right to defend my family.
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  • snow
    snow Posts: 4,337
    edited June 2009
    JohnLocke88 wrote: »
    If you want to get technical, it will ricochet at an angle equal to 180 degrees minus x (being the downward angle of the shotgun), not "everywhere." Other factors such as the thickness of the carpet and the padding underneath with mitigate ricochet to a negligible amount.




    Agreed. Those are not viable options.




    Yep, pretty stupid decision. But from a civil/legal stand point, the home owner escalated to deadly force before the 'perpetrator.'



    Doesn't matter from a civil law suit stand point; the Fact that he had time to grab that shotgun, but not to dial 911 and leave the phone off the hook will be a damaging piece of evidence in a civil suit.



    Dial 911, then grab the shot gun.
    The fact is the homeowner has every right to defend his home with lethal measures, if you think for a moment that the family of the victim has any legal recourse at all civil or or criminal with the evidence provided your living in a different world than I am. Just the fact you state that the owner had time to dial 911 before grabbing a weapon is both guessing about things you know nothing about and downright silly to be honest.

    And no the owner didnt escalate anything the kid did by grabbing the shotgun, at the moment in time the owner had every reason to believe that if the kid gained control of it he would be shot, and any jury in a civil suit would see it the same way.

    As mentioned in my first post on this the shooter deserves a medal for a job well done.



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D
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  • JohnLocke88
    JohnLocke88 Posts: 1,150
    edited June 2009
    snow wrote: »
    The fact is the homeowner has every right to defend his home with lethal measures, if you think for a moment that the family of the victim has any legal recourse at all civil or or criminal with the evidence provided your living in a different world than I am.


    Right.....people almost always have legal recourse. Go check out a law book at your local library. I think I must be living in the world called "reality 2009" you're living in "Tombstone 1881."
    snow wrote: »
    Just the fact you state that the owner had time to dial 911 before grabbing a weapon is both guessing about things you know nothing about and downright silly to be honest.

    First, off yes, I am just speculating. We ALL are (including your high and mighty self) speculators as A) we were all NOT there, B) the only conflicting witness to the account is now DEAD (thanks to Mr. Allen) and C) Mr. Allen would almost undoubted lie had something arisen to possibly lead to his being charged with murder. "Pot, meet kettle."

    I guess had he had the shotgun under his sofa (just in case a big ole' baddie came running through the UNLOCKED door), the additional time to grab the phone might have been relevant. , I think the time it took to leave the entry way (living room, w/e) run down the hall, get the shotgun out of the closet (out from under the bed) would have not taken an additional 3-5 seconds to make a quick stop at the phone. Or here's this for a novel thought, hold the gun on the guy, pick up the hand held and call 911.
    snow wrote: »
    And no the owner didnt escalate anything the kid did by grabbing the shotgun, at the moment in time the owner had every reason to believe that if the kid gained control of it he would be shot, and any jury in a civil suit would see it the same way.

    Alrighty, by that universal logic, if a criminal pulls a gun on you trying to rob you, and you reach for the gun, he has every right to shoot you, because "if you gain control of it, he has every reason to believe he'd be shot." Sounds good to me! The fact that it was in the shooter's house may be a mitigating factor in a criminal proceeding, but such factors are not as heavily weighted in a civil suit. (regardless of what you say :D)

    Say what you like, but a civil suit should, and will, come. Just because you say a jury will decide one way, don't make it so. I'm not saying that it's a 100% guaranteed slam dunk, but any good lawyer will get that "kid's" family a good chance at a civil settlement.
    snow wrote: »
    As mentioned in my first post on this the shooter deserves a medal for a job well done.

    REGARDS SNOW

    The celebration of death... Not simply, a tragic event, that resulted in the unfortunate, but necessary taking of life. Nope! A celebration! KILL KILL KILL! "You come to my house uninvited and I'll blast your **** you sad sack of crap!"

    Sad to see some people purport such violent, and unempathetic views. :(
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,460
    edited June 2009
    Your "reality 2009" is a joke.

    Mr. Allen did what any smart person should do in that situation and he should get a medal for it. I'd have no problem shaking his hand.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • snow
    snow Posts: 4,337
    edited June 2009
    Originally Posted by JohnLocke88
    Or here's this for a novel thought, hold the gun on the guy, pick up the hand held and call 911.
    It sounds like to me the threat of the shotgun had no effect being as he rushed the owner and fought with hin for it, what makes you think the kid would have waited while you called 911? and besides I only have 2 hands of which both would be firmly on the shotgun, how many hands do you possess?
    Alrighty, by that universal logic, if a criminal pulls a gun on you trying to rob you, and you reach for the gun, he has every right to shoot you, because "if you gain control of it, he has every reason to believe he'd be shot." Sounds good to me! The fact that it was in the shooter's house may be a mitigating factor in a criminal proceeding, but such factors are not as heavily weighted in a civil suit. (regardless of what you say :D)
    Wow totally different scenario, the kid was the criminal here not the owner, how you can possibly compare the two as being the same is beyond me. Trust me I know the burden of proof is much lower in a civil wrongful death suit then it is in a criminal court but the fact remains that the kid was at fault for one being in the house to start with. two after being asked to leave with a shotgun as a motivator chose to fight with the owner would be proof enough that it was self defense.
    Say what you like, but a civil suit should, and will, come. Just because you say a jury will decide one way, don't make it so. I'm not saying that it's a 100% guaranteed slam dunk, but any good lawyer will get that "kid's" family a good chance at a civil settlement.
    Any good lawyer would laugh at you and tell you to spend the money hiring him, elsewhere after being presented with the above evidence.

    The celebration of death... Not simply, a tragic event, that resulted in the unfortunate, but necessary taking of life. Nope! A celebration! KILL KILL KILL! "You come to my house uninvited and I'll blast your **** you sad sack of crap!"

    Sad to see some people purport such violent, and unempathetic views. :(
    Not sure what that tirade was all about but I suggest getting a refill on whatever medication your on because you must be out.



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D
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  • LessisNevermore
    LessisNevermore Posts: 1,519
    edited June 2009
    You dont think the carpet/padding has the ability to change directory?

    Nope, it doesn't. But "CD C:\Windows" will change a directory.:p

    If the kid has yet to be identified, how do they know he was 17?
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    point is in all this, the kid was unarmed and **** up, the owner was a total f**king ****
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  • snow
    snow Posts: 4,337
    edited June 2009
    slowpolky wrote: »
    point is in all this, the kid was unarmed and **** up, the owner was a total f**king ****
    Not if he had got control of the shotgun :rolleyes: The owner was using the shotgun as a deterrent to violence. What do you believe the owner should have done? other than make him a sandwich.



    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    lol, offer him a beer
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  • slowpolky
    slowpolky Posts: 714
    edited June 2009
    i seriously think we should have a new home edition assault weapon that has a non lethal option of ammo , like what about dual barrel guns that fire rubber builets or the bean bags. What about a gun that has a electric stun capacity to stop and drop instead of fire and kill
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited June 2009
    Slow you are being a total idiot. I have had/been around guns my whole life. Your ricochet theory has more holes in it than a sieve. If ricochets were 180 then they would be very predictable. I would give you a shovel, but you are doing just fine on your own.
    Thanks
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • NotaSuv
    NotaSuv Posts: 3,849
    edited June 2009
    slowpolky wrote: »
    i seriously think we should have a new home edition assault weapon that has a non lethal option of ammo , like what about dual barrel guns that fire rubber builets or the bean bags. What about a gun that has a electric stun capacity to stop and drop instead of fire and kill

    LOL yeah I am sure all the bad guys will switch too.....................

    bottom line is you shot to kill..period....one shot one kill............

    you defend your home and family period......................

    maybe if this "innocent teen" didnt start fighting the homeowner he would be here to tell his tale.............he didnt and he bacame aggresive...

    sad story yes................is home owner a **** or deserves more than a slap on the wrist.............no

    I really hope you are never in the same situation and we read about the guy who shot the kid in the legs only to be shot by the kid who had a gun in his waistband.....................
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  • apphd
    apphd Posts: 1,514
    edited June 2009
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    To me, it's where I live and how I live. The other .000001 percent is fate. But I sleep well. Chris :):):)


    Exactly! There are many things you can do to reduce the risk of ever needing to use deadly force to defend yourself. As far as your .000001 %.......
    From the US Dept of Justice "2006 Criminal Victimization Statistical Tables"

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf

    .025% of Americans were a victim of a personal or property crime in 2006.
    24.2% of reported crime in 2006 was a crime of violence.
    8% the violence was completed.

    Sleep well Chris:rolleyes:
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