IsoClean Audio Grade Fuses

halo71

cristo wrote: »

and mine as well.
Goodnight.

No **** hurtin' now. Remember, you necro'd this thread.

quadzilla

cristo wrote: »

or if one side will provide no amount of convincing evidence.

If you can't understand the evidence, no amount will be convincing. Nor does that fact that specific measurement can't be presented now to explain a phenomenon mean that such a measurement never be found. We were able to see light a long time before we understood how it worked, and thunderstorms were once thought to be the work of gods. But from your assertions, because we can't now explain certain things we can observe, we will never be able to explain these experiences, and more to the point, that they must not exist because we do not now have the tools to measure them. Seems a rather silly and narrow way to go through life. I'm willing to accept that not everything can be explained now, but that at some point, we will likely be able to explain why a silver wire sounds different than a copper wire. After all, even you upgraded the components in your xovers, but the circuit values remained the same. By your logic, there should be no difference.

hearingimpared

cristo wrote: »

or if one side will provide no amount of convincing evidence.

It's hard to believe that you either don't or won't accept the study done by DK as his findings are well displayed and documented.

hearingimpared

cristo wrote: »

hearingimpaired, your headache should get better very soon now,
and mine as well.
Goodnight.

That's hearingimpared! No it's not a typo. There's a reason behind the spelling. Did you misread or miss some detail(s) the studies put forth as well?

Usually by this time a troll would have been placed on my bozo list but you decided to come back with some thought provoking posts so I'll still be seeing you.;)

inspiredsports

quadzilla wrote: »

If you can't understand the evidence, no amount will be convincing. Nor does that fact that specific measurement can't be presented now to explain a phenomenon mean that such a measurement never be found. We were able to see light a long time before we understood how it worked, and thunderstorms were once thought to be the work of gods. But from your assertions, because we can't now explain certain things we can observe, we will never be able to explain these experiences, and more to the point, that they must not exist because we do not now have the tools to measure them. Seems a rather silly and narrow way to go through life. I'm willing to accept that not everything can be explained now, but that at some point, we will likely be able to explain why a silver wire sounds different than a copper wire. After all, even you upgraded the components in your xovers, but the circuit values remained the same. By your logic, there should be no difference.

Very well said.

dorokusai

We have the tools to measure these things, they're called ears. As mentioned previously by multiple folks. I use these fuses in my boutique amplifier but have never heard an audible difference, nor do I believe anyone else has regardless of this or that. Who cares? Am I upset it didn't change my life? No.

Most of these audio things are barely noticeable after the project is over. Someone has said here at some point that it's the audiophile that's looking for that final 1% of improvment within their setup. That's true and whether its something you can wrap your head around or something that sounds like a magic trick explained poorly.... just do what you want.

If I listened to this forum verbatim regarding the choices I've made personally, I'd own the same stuff as the next 10,000 members. BUT if you really read what the crew posts here, use and keep all other information in perspective....your next decision will be more informed. Sometimes you have to do what you want and not worry about others right? If not, get out of the hobby.

Use what you read from everywhere to make your decision. This is a pretty balanced website when it comes to suggestions and the members are actively engaged to help one another on any issue of belief or disbelief. If you don't agree, oh well....if you want to challenge/enforce the issue don't worry about the haters on either side....it's NORMAL. If we all agreed this planet would just suck.

cristo

I'm getting the message that the less harmonics in the ac going into the component, the
better, but I'm not sure why this must be so. One could of course, generate a high
quality low distortion 120 vac 60 Hz sine wave source to power your equipment, but consider this:
After the transformer and the full wave rectifier in the power supply of an amplifier, that
60 Hz sine wave is now 120 Hz and not a sine wave any more at all. It's now rich in
harmonics, and the power supply now has the job of filtering that to a smooth dc
voltage with minimal ripple. There are more complicated multi-phase full-wave rectifier circuits
that do a better job in some respects than a standard single phase full-wave rectifier, but that's not the
point I'm trying to get at. Why try to eliminate any non-fundamental frequency in the
ac power entering the component if a bunch of harmonics are going to be added in the
next stage? They are even harmonics, but we're not listening avidly to the ac hum (I hope),
so not sure if even vs. odd is as important as distortion in an audio signal.
Also, capacitors and inductors in a power supply filter ac based on its frequency and amplitude,
whether the residual ac noise is harmonically related to 60 Hz or not, for that matter.

Here's a link that illustrates the harmonic content of a rectified power supply, section 4 and figures 4.2 and 4.3. in particular.

http://www.pdhengineer.com/courses/e/E-3018.pdf

treitz3

Dude, give it up. This isn't electronics class.

Either try one in your rig or accept at face value that some folks like the difference the HQ fuse makes in their rig. It's as simple as that. Now, can we stay on topic?

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

Dude, give it up. This isn't electronics class.

Either try one in your rig or accept at face value that some folks like the difference the HQ fuse makes in their rig. It's as simple as that. Now, can we stay on topic?

I wonder if gourmet ice cream generates the same amount of skepticism, i.e.:

"I've never tried gourmet ice cream, but I don't think it tastes any better than ordinary ice cream."

"I won't try any gourmet ice cream until I get scientific proof, in peer-reviewed science journals, that it tastes better than ordinary ice cream."

"What is the difference in chemical composition between gourmet ice cream and ordinary ice cream?"

"Even if gourmet ice cream uses better ingredients than ordinary ice cream, I don't believe that translates to better taste and I'm not going to try any."

"Why don't the makers of gourmet ice cream do double-blind taste tests to prove that their ice cream tastes better than ordinary ice cream?"

hearingimpared

darqueknight wrote: »

i wonder if gourmet ice cream generates the same amount of skepticism, i.e.:

"i've never tried gourmet ice cream, but i don't think it tastes any better than ordinary ice cream."

"i won't try any gourmet ice cream until i get scientific proof, in peer-reviewed science journals, that it tastes better than ordinary ice cream."

"what is the difference in chemical composition between gourmet ice cream and ordinary ice cream?"

"even if gourmet ice cream uses better ingredients than ordinary ice cream, i don't believe that translates to better taste and i'm not going to try any."

"why don't the makers of gourmet ice cream do double-blind taste tests to prove that their ice cream tastes better than ordinary ice cream?"

waaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!!!

Outfitter03

I like ice cream; gourmet, homemade or generic store bought! Variety is the spice of life be it ice cream or people's opinions.

inspiredsports

My favorite ice cream sundae: http://www.yumsugar.com/What-Exactly-60000-Ice-Cream-Sundae-1572937 :rolleyes:

hearingimpared

I got news for you guys. I'm an ice commonsewer nyuk, nyuk, nyuk, and love all the "high-end" ice creams but Walgreen's ice creams are fantastic and that at 2 for $5. Smooth, creamy, full of flavor and not puffed up with air it's delicious. They have a great variety too and their strawberry tastes like fresh strawberry preserves.

LessisNevermore

hearingimpared wrote: »

I got news for you guys. I'm an ice commonsewer nyuk, nyuk, nyuk, and love all the "high-end" ice creams but Walgreen's ice creams are fantastic and that at 2 for $5. Smooth, creamy, full of flavor and not puffed up with air it's delicious. They have a great variety too and their strawberry tastes like fresh strawberry preserves.

Sorry, but we reject your "review" as personal opinion. Please try to include some scientific principles in your review, or just post it as opinion.:p:p:D:D

(where have I read that before?):D

FTGV

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Please try to include some scientific principles in your review, or just post it as opinion.:p:p:D:D

I'm sure **** and Vanderkooy have done a paper on said topic.

hearingimpared

FTGV wrote: »

I'm sure **** and Vanderkooy have done a paper on said topic.

Yep, and all ice crean taste the same!:D I would do an ABX on with Walgreen's strawberry in the mix as matter of fact throw Breyers® strawberry in there too and I'll identify them.:p I guess I wouldn't be allowed to look at the ice cream sample!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry Ray, but you derailed your own thread!:eek::D

headrott

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I wonder if gourmet ice cream generates the same amount of skepticism, i.e.:

"I've never tried gourmet ice cream, but I don't think it tastes any better than ordinary ice cream."

"I won't try any gourmet ice cream until I get scientific proof, in peer-reviewed science journals, that it tastes better than ordinary ice cream."

"What is the difference in chemical composition between gourmet ice cream and ordinary ice cream?"

"Even if gourmet ice cream uses better ingredients than ordinary ice cream, I don't believe that translates to better taste and I'm not going to try any."

"Why don't the makers of gourmet ice cream do double-blind taste tests to prove that their ice cream tastes better than ordinary ice cream?"

I love that analogy Raife! I do love gourmet ice cream too! Give the Haagen Daz "Bananas Foster" a try. Unfortunately, it's a limited edition, but maybe if enough people buy it, they'll continue making it. (Unless there are too many gourmet ice cream naysayers out there).;):D

http://www.haagen-dazs.com/products/product.aspx?id=392

Greg

inspiredsports

I'm not sure why so many who doubt have to so adamantly express it in writing before giving an item a try.

I was skeptical about tubes, cables, IC's, tonearms, cartridges, record clamps, capacitors, isolation, etc., etc. But rather than argue, I read, learned, purchased and listened (yes I like to see specs during the learning phase).

The ice cream analogy is great, and I'll bet many who argue about the difference between a 40 cent and 40 dollar fuse have a mindset that forces them to deny themselves the ice cream that costs and extra buck a quart.

DarqueKnight

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm not sure why so many who doubt have to so adamantly express it in writing before giving an item a try.

Bashing or naysaying an audio tweak you have no personal experience with makes a person look real smart on the Internet.;)

Face

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm not sure why so many who doubt have to so adamantly express it in writing before giving an item a try.

They're Luddites.

DarqueKnight

Luddite: In modern usage, "Luddite" is a term describing those opposed to industrialization, automation, computerization or new technologies in general.

inspiredsports

Well, I tried to take the high road, but you two have pegged what I was really thinking

One of these is going into my VTL ST-50 when it comes back modded from Music Technology, and also into my modded PV-5. This pair of fuses will actually be one of the more economical tweaks I've put into those two little jewels.

Thanks for the nice write up, DK.

heiney9

Welborne Labs uses the Ceramic fuses (similar to Iso Clean) in their upgraded linear power supply they sell for the Squeezebox Touch. Who am I to argue. It sure isn't hurting anything.

Our upgrade design incorporates a tightly regulated linear power supply featuring low noise Schottky rectifier diodes, low noise, low drop-out voltage regulator chips, Ultra low impedance Nichicon capacitors and a high-current-low-noise-split-bobbin transformer (get it? it's designed for very low noise). Our power supply measures less than 50 microvolts of ripple under full load resulting in very quiet operation with plenty of reserve current for good dynamics. Additional benefits are obtained with the use of a ceramic fuse, Vishay/Dale 1% metal film resistors, Wima polypropylene bypass cap, heavier gauge dc power cable and a detachable ac power cord.



H9

jinjuku

I'm sure it's been stated in this thread: Jumper the fuse with some good old fashion copper and see if it makes a difference.

Hunk of OFC > high end fuse.

bikezappa

There are many successful methods to interview a person for an engineering position. A key requirement is to determine if the candidate can recognize real data from crap numbers. Here is my simple test.

I greet the candidate who is sitting at a round table. I apologize that I need to address something that is work related but will be back in ten minutes. I ask the candidate to calculate the circumference of the table which is about 36” in diameter and hand the candidate a calculator which has a pie button and a tape measure. I ask them to write the answer on the paper. I come back in ten minutes and look at the answer on the paper. If the answer is something like 113.0953784” the interview is over. They failed.

Why?

Because they don’t understand that the tape measure can only measure the diameter of the table to XX.XX significant figures. They use the simple formula of C=pie X Diameter and enter 36.23” times pie. The error is that the calculator has probably 20 significant figures for pie. The calculator will then give you 20 significant numbers in the answer.

A good answer would be 113.1”

A better answer would be 113.1 +/- 0.2”

A great answer would be a table of ten different measurements of the diameter of the table which are averaged with a calculated circumference with a standard deviation from the mean. I’m sure there are even better answers but the candidate had only ten minutes.

That answer would get them hired that day because they understand the meaning of data/numbers.

What’s this got to do with fuses you may wonder?

Filters can remove electric noise from the AC power source. Filters are built into most all good audio equipment for this reason.

A filter is made up of capacitive and inductive resistance (capacitors and inductors) to block certain noise frequencies.

A fuse has no capacitive or inductive resistance and is not a filter. Well I suppose you could say fuses do have some reactance but the amount is very, very small. A brick has some inductive and capacitive reactance but it will not filter selected frequencies. The magnitude issue here is similar to measuring the circumference of the table with the pie button on the calculator and tape measure to 20 places. Who cares about the 19th or 20th numbers?

A fuse is just resistive in electronics at the frequencies we are using and a very low resistance at that.

A line cord is very similar to the fuse, basically a pure resistor.

No filtering is accomplished with a fuse or line cord at these frequencies.

inspiredsports

bikezappa wrote: »

There are many successful methods to interview a person for an engineering position. A key requirement is to determine if the candidate can recognize real data from crap numbers. Here is my simple test.

I greet the candidate who is sitting at a round table. I apologize that I need to address something that is work related but will be back in ten minutes. I ask the candidate to calculate the circumference of the table which is about 36” in diameter and hand the candidate a calculator which has a pie button and a tape measure. I ask them to write the answer on the paper. I come back in ten minutes and look at the answer on the paper. If the answer is something like 113.0953784” the interview is over. They failed.

Why?

Because they don’t understand that the tape measure can only measure the diameter of the table to XX.XX significant figures. They use the simple formula of C=pie X Diameter and enter 36.23” times pie. The error is that the calculator has probably 20 significant figures for pie. The calculator will then give you 20 significant numbers in the answer.

A good answer would be 113.1”

A better answer would be 113.1 +/- 0.2”

A great answer would be a table of ten different measurements of the diameter of the table which are averaged with a calculated circumference with a standard deviation from the mean. I’m sure there are even better answers but the candidate had only ten minutes.

That answer would get them hired that day because they understand the meaning of data/numbers.

What’s this got to do with fuses you may wonder?

Filters can remove electric noise from the AC power source. Filters are built into most all good audio equipment for this reason.

A filter is made up of capacitive and inductive resistance (capacitors and inductors) to block certain noise frequencies.

A fuse has no capacitive or inductive resistance and is not a filter. Well I suppose you could say fuses do have some reactance but the amount is very, very small. A brick has some inductive and capacitive reactance but it will not filter selected frequencies. The magnitude issue here is similar to measuring the circumference of the table with the pie button on the calculator and tape measure to 20 places. Who cares about the 19th or 20th numbers?

A fuse is just resistive in electronics at the frequencies we are using and a very low resistance at that.

A line cord is very similar to the fuse, basically a pure resistor.

No filtering is accomplished with a fuse or line cord at these frequencies.

Does a brick filter the selected frequency if it is that of sunlight?

How do you know what frequencies (if harmonics are considered) are audible? (Is your measuring tool capable?)

You might just be that guy sitting at the table with the measuring tape and limited ability calculator

Face

inspiredsports wrote: »

You might just be that guy sitting at the table with the measuring tape and limited ability calculator

Really!

If I was on the other end of the table, I'd want to hit him over the head with it.

quadzilla

bikezappa wrote: »

There are many successful methods to interview a person for an engineering position. A key requirement is to determine if the candidate can recognize real data from crap numbers. Here is my simple test.

I greet the candidate who is sitting at a round table. I apologize that I need to address something that is work related but will be back in ten minutes. I ask the candidate to calculate the circumference of the table which is about 36” in diameter and hand the candidate a calculator which has a pie button and a tape measure. I ask them to write the answer on the paper. I come back in ten minutes and look at the answer on the paper. If the answer is something like 113.0953784” the interview is over. They failed.

Why?

Because they don’t understand that the tape measure can only measure the diameter of the table to XX.XX significant figures. They use the simple formula of C=pie X Diameter and enter 36.23” times pie. The error is that the calculator has probably 20 significant figures for pie. The calculator will then give you 20 significant numbers in the answer.

A good answer would be 113.1”

A better answer would be 113.1 +/- 0.2”

A great answer would be a table of ten different measurements of the diameter of the table which are averaged with a calculated circumference with a standard deviation from the mean. I’m sure there are even better answers but the candidate had only ten minutes.

That answer would get them hired that day because they understand the meaning of data/numbers.

What’s this got to do with fuses you may wonder?

Filters can remove electric noise from the AC power source. Filters are built into most all good audio equipment for this reason.

A filter is made up of capacitive and inductive resistance (capacitors and inductors) to block certain noise frequencies.

A fuse has no capacitive or inductive resistance and is not a filter. Well I suppose you could say fuses do have some reactance but the amount is very, very small. A brick has some inductive and capacitive reactance but it will not filter selected frequencies. The magnitude issue here is similar to measuring the circumference of the table with the pie button on the calculator and tape measure to 20 places. Who cares about the 19th or 20th numbers?

A fuse is just resistive in electronics at the frequencies we are using and a very low resistance at that.

A line cord is very similar to the fuse, basically a pure resistor.

No filtering is accomplished with a fuse or line cord at these frequencies.

So what you're saying here is that you won't trust anything you can't measure on an o-scope, and further, that if you can't see it on your o-scope, it must not exist, and that only numbers matter. What a sad way to go through life. As I've said before, just because you can't measure it today doesn't mean we won't be able to measure it tomorrow. But we can hear it today. So in that regard, we can measure it. It's just not quantifiable.

Funny thing is, I would have given you your 113.1 in such an interview, but only because I'm too lazy to write down entire answer. Or if I was feeling snarky over having my interviewer walk out on my interview, thus telling me that the interview is not much of a priority for them, I would have put something like 13.31x10e1. And then left.

inspiredsports

Face wrote: »

Really!

If I was on the other end of the table, I'd want to hit him over the head with it.

I think what I was saying is that I wouldn't have hired bikezappa precisely because of the same trap he set for his job candidate.

He's relying a a measurement that may not be accurate, and may not be measuring the right thing when he states his belief a fuse can't impact sound quality simply because he can't find a measurement to support it.

This is getting tiresome that it has to be said over and over that specs and measurements are great as long as you remember that your ears also need to be used.

Face

He must be looking to hire someone lazy and/or someone who won't make him look dumb.