Burglary is a risky business....

amulford

A little while back here in Jersey a guy was awakened by some noise in his yard very early in the morning (read 2 or 3 AM). He got out of bed, grabbed his pistol and went out to investigate. He found two men breaking into his shed, where he had some expensive toys.

He yelled out to them "FREEZE, I've got a gun! Both of them turned and came toward him, still thirty or forty feet away, and started to shout at him. One of them raised his hand. He's dead. The other guy got capped, but is alive.

He got off, and deserved to, but it was close. They presented it to a grand jury, got the indictment, and the man was aquitted by jury.

McLoki

amulford wrote: »

A little while back here in Jersey a guy was awakened by some noise in his yard very early in the morning (read 2 or 3 AM). He got out of bed, grabbed his pistol and went out to investigate. He found two men breaking into his shed, where he had some expensive toys.

He yelled out to them "FREEZE, I've got a gun! Both of them turned and came toward him, still thirty or forty feet away, and started to shout at him. One of them raised his hand. He's dead. The other guy got capped, but is alive.

He got off, and deserved to, but it was close. They presented it to a grand jury, got the indictment, and the man was aquitted by jury.

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

JohnLocke88

McLoki wrote: »

Reread my post from a more sarcastic position....

Was it that obvious? Some old photos aren't worth killin someone over. The guy should have just stayed inside; no one was gonna get killed.

hockeyboy

shack wrote: »

It's a damn shame. Horn should be in jail. He executed someone that was no immediate threat and he didn’t let the cops do the job. He became judge, jury and executioner with a pull of the trigger. Texas obviously condones vigilante justice. They may have been thugs and scum...but the ultimate punishment did not fit the crime. Horn committed a worse than crime that the thieves he killed IMO!

"Let the cops do their job?" Bubba, if we count on the corrupt and ineffective police force that operates in typical America to take care of us we are in serious trouble. Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally) who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

amulford

McLoki wrote: »

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

Damn right. It was determined those two weren't armed, but who could tell. The one who lived did the right thing and told the truth at trial, which was a big part of the acquittal.

This Horn guy isn't the same though. He was wrong, period. Especially if they were headed the other way. If he wanted to detain them, he could have done it. He went for the kill. I don't really agree with what he did...

shack

JohnLocke88 wrote:

What's it say about a country that was founded on rugged individualism and self reliance that a man has to be afraid for his rights when he is in the morally superior position. Whether you agree that pulling the trigger was the right thing to do, you must admit that his intentions were nothing short of honorable, attempting to be a good neighbor.

Give me a **** break :rolleyes: All he wanted to do was to be "the hero"...and in the meantime killed two men over some "stuff".

Morally superior? Since when is taking the law above and beyond what is moral a superior position?

exalted512

ND13 wrote: »

Wow!!!

I understand the castle doctrine laws, but how did this apply in this case? It was his neighbors house and he shot them in the back. I'd probably shoot someone that broke into my house without blinking an eye, but this is totally different. With my **** neighbors, I'd probably not even take notice if their places were being robbed;).

Castle doctrine, in Texas at least, applies to immediate neighbor's houses as well. (If they give you consent)

It doesn't matter where you shoot them, if they're on the property, fair game(no pun intended).

My hat is off to Mr. Horn. I hope my neighbors would do the same for my house. Hopefully this will serve a lesson to other thieves.
-Cody

disneyjoe7

McLoki wrote: »

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

I wouldn't stop until I ran out of bullets.

McLoki

JohnLocke88 wrote: »

Was it that obvious? Some old photos aren't worth killin someone over. The guy should have just stayed inside; no one was gonna get killed.

And I assume there was a signed agreement from the thieves that they would not move on to other crimes, in the future (or past) would never harm anyone and at no point would a crime be perpetrated against any of your family or friends?

Crime such as this is rarely a single event, and when the point is reached that they come across someone in the house and ends up hurting or killing them (in the heat of the moment) there is no wayback machine to change past events.

re-read your old spiderman comics for God sake...

shack

hockeyboy wrote:

"Let the cops do their job?" Bubba, if we count on the corrupt and ineffective police force that operates in typical America to take care of us we are in serious trouble.

Nice commentary on the 99% of the cops that are honest hardworking LEOs.

hockeyboy wrote:

"Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally) who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

I'm sure you have a greater insight into what they were thinking....

exalted512

HERES A FREAKIN GENIUS IDEA...DONT COMMIT CRIMES, YOU WONT GET SHOT

is it that hard?
-Cody

shack

Maybe the next time one of you folks jaywalk or cross against the light they should kneecap you. Gotta protect our safe driving neighbors from you criminals. Get drunk in public...better break you arm so you can't commit another crime. Speeding? Blow the damn car up...the driver is obviously a menace.

I have no problem with punishment...and the thieves certainly deserved to be punished. I have a problem with a so called good citizen with an itchy trigger finger taking the law in his own hands and meting out punishment far and above what was called for.

To be honest....it sickens me that we have a society that is so quick to say they would pull the trigger to kill another human being that poses no physical threat to themselves. I'm out....but I just hope the next time you go and visist a friends house and walk around back to see if they are home when no one answers the door, that the good citizen Horn isn't looking out his window and decides to protect his neighbors property.

madmax

The guy on the phone was obviously thrilled about shooting somebody. You can hear in his voice he just can't wait for the thrill. I say death penalty for him.

On the other hand, if he had just shot the punks instead of calling the cops to brag then I would be in his corner 100%.
madmax

exalted512

shack wrote: »

Maybe the next time one of you folks jaywalk or cross against the light they should kneecap you. Gotta protect our safe driving neighbors from you criminals. Get drunk in public...better break you arm so you can't commit another crime. Speeding? Blow the damn car up...the driver is obviously a menace.

I have no problem with punishment...and the thieves certainly deserved to be punished. I have a problem with a so called good citizen with an itchy trigger finger taking the law in his own hands and meting out punishment far and above what was called for.

To be honest....it sickens me that we have a society that is so quick to say they would pull the trigger to kill another human being that poses no physical threat to themselves. I'm out....but I just hope the next time you go and visits a friends house and walk around back to see if they are home when no one answers the door, that the good citizen Horn isn't looking out his window and decides to protect his neighbors property.

Exactly! Because if you see a jaywalker, well, they are def. a threat. And I can def. see how someone can mistake a friend walking around the property as a thief that was seen breaking in with a crow bar and seen running away from a property with a bag of crap.

-Cody

Sami

hockeyboy wrote: »

Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally)

That should have not made any difference, but it's Texas so the jury was most likely full of racist rednecks so I'm pretty sure it did.

hockeyboy wrote: »

who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

That's why they got shot in the back, because they were committed to kill...sure. :rolleyes:

sucks2beme

Weren't the perps suspected of other robberies?
I seem to recall they were able to link them to
crimes committed in serveral other states.
These were NOT nice guys. If there was ever
a case I wish for a do over, this was the one.
I wish they had broke into HIS house. Then it
would be cut and dried. I am not too keen on
someone marching over to someone else's house to
kill the bad guys. I have no problem at all with him
blasting away on his property.

phuz

sucks2beme wrote: »

Weren't the perps suspected of other robberies?
I seem to recall they were able to link them to
crimes committed in serveral other states.
These were NOT nice guys. If there was ever
a case I wish for a do over, this was the one.
I wish they had broke into HIS house. Then it
would be cut and dried. I am not too keen on
someone marching over to someone else's house to
kill the bad guys. I have no problem at all with him
blasting away on his property.

Yes, one had even been deported for a cocaine charge in the 90's. They both had long histories.

One of them was on his property actually.

It's a very gray area, but I'm glad it worked out the way that it did in the legal sense.

bobman1235

I think it's natural for most people, myself included, to be happy or relieved when they hear about what was obviously a criminal being punished. In this case these two lowlifes were probably a drain on society and who gives a crap that they're no longer here.

That being said, the essence of shack's argument is right. It's one thing if someone is IN YOUR home in the middle of the night; they'd get one warning in my house before a bullet to the brain (I wish my marksmanship were that good). But seeing someone in a vacant neighbor's house, and gunning them down for it? Again, in retrospect I love to see some scumbags removed from the gene pool, but it coulda been a couple of 16-year old kids doing some stupid prank or anything, and obviously no one was in danger and the guy just wanted to shoot someone. I'm not one for defending criminals, I'd love to see them punished to the fullest extent of the law, but you can't just shoot EVERYONE you think is committing a crime in your vicinity, we'd have chaos.


As for Sami and your ridiculous comment about racial motivation, I think the "illegal" part would be more important to this conversation than the "immigrant" part. Plenty of people want tougher laws against illegal immigrants who are not racist. Race has nothing to do with wanting to enforce laws; people who throw around hte 'racist' card every time illegal immigration comes up need to find a new argument, sorry.

Libertyc

Well Mr. Horn (the shooter) was cleared today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/us/01texas.html

JohnLocke88

Libertyc wrote: »

Well Mr. Horn (the shooter) was cleared today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/us/01texas.html

Have you even read the last 20 posts?

And as for the "shoot to kill" idea; a 12-gauge shotgun isn't exactly a highly accurate weapon, but somehow I think a couple of shots at the shins would have been equally as effective at stopping them from running. Only problem for Mr. Horn would have been that they would have lived to sue.

Libertyc

Yeah I read all the posts. I missed the link...

Sami

bobman, have you ever been in Texas?

SolidSqual

In Indiana there is no requirement to retreat. You do however have to be threatened of death or bodily injury before pulling the trigger. That requirement is relaxed if someone is on your own property without your permission and you don't know who they are.

paymontna

A situation like this happened here in good ole PA, not too far from my grandparents home, and the shooter walked free. Shot the guy right in the knee cap with a 30-06. The robber was right at the edge of the shooters yard , and was coming towards the shooters house. LOL.....there was a thread that was posted here a few years back on how a Southern Baptist conservative would handle being held up. I wish whoever posted it would put it up again. It was something to the affect to shoot and keep reloading until you are out of bullets.

mrbigbluelight

shack wrote: »

It's a damn shame. Horn should be in jail. He executed someone that was no immediate threat and he didn’t let the cops do the job. He became judge, jury and executioner with a pull of the trigger. Texas obviously condones vigilante justice. They may have been thugs and scum...but the ultimate punishment did not fit the crime. Horn committed a worse than crime that the thieves he killed IMO!

I'd have to disagree.

The idea that these guys would run away and never come back after having Mr. Horn threaten them with a shotgun is nice but, from my experiences, probably not accurate.

They would have been back. Maybe armed this time, maybe they'd figure they better take out the old man first, maybe they'd come back at night when they figured Mr. Horn would be asleep, maybe .... maybe.

A lot of maybes, to be sure.

But I'm willing to let Mr. Horn go free and let him explain himself to The Big Guy Upstairs when his time comes.

bobman1235

Sami wrote: »

bobman, have you ever been in Texas?

Several times. The Hispanics seem to outnumber the Caucasians. If they think they're oh so discriminated against and life is so horrible for them here, you'd think they'd stop filing in.

ohskigod

I can't lie in saying I am glad he was cleared. I agree with Shack's point that he really wasn't 100 percent right in this case, however, I give the benefit of the doubt when home invaders are so close to his person.

the question is, did he feel his life was in imminent threat and danger, and I feel the answer is yes.

we can monday morning quarterback this all day and say he wasn't in danger, but we also must remember that this guy did not set out into the day with the desire to shoot someone, he was thrust into a very stressful situation of having a home invasion taking place close to him. Having someone even breaking into the house next to you is very stressful in a number of ways, believe me I know.

add in that it takes a special scumbag to actually invade someones home, if you have a home invader on your hands, you also have a potential murderer/rapist, et al. Perhaps not all home invaders are, granted, but it's not a stretch in the assumption.

i said it before and i'll say it again, home invasion to me is a serious crime. If someone doesnt have the built in mechanism to say invading someones home is wrong, that person is not to far away from being in the mindset of saying, killing or invading another human being is kosher as well. call it a generalization, call it un pc, call it what you will.....it doesnt make it any less true.


breaking it down to components, you can say he was wrong, you can bring valid arguments to bear, but it doesnt change the fact that the shooter genuinly felt threatened and in danger of his life. I have no doubt in that.

as for the deceased, I have no sympathy whatsoever for home invaders getting plugged, call me kooky, call me what you will.

Demiurge

ohskigod wrote: »

we can monday morning quarterback this all day and say he wasn't in danger, but we also must remember that this guy did not set out into the day with the desire to shoot someone, he was thrust into a very stressful situation of having a home invasion taking place close to him. Having someone even breaking into the house next to you is very stressful in a number of ways, believe me I know.

He wasn't in any danger beyond the danger he put himself in. I'm sure it was scary, but that's not danger.

I also don't know that he didn't set out to shoot someone that day. We've got people in this thread saying how they would react in a similar situation. I have been in a similar situation myself, as posted earlier, and never once did it occur to me to run out of my house and shoot them in the back while it was going down. Good thing too, because as the investigation unfolded it was my neighbor that ultimately set up the burglary for the purposes of insurance fraud.

If he had been in the house being broken into we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm as big a gun advocate as anyone on this forum and there's no doubt this guy was in the wrong.

honda cber

JohnLocke88 wrote: »

Have you even read the last 20 posts?

And as for the "shoot to kill" idea; a 12-gauge shotgun isn't exactly a highly accurate weapon, but somehow I think a couple of shots at the shins would have been equally as effective at stopping them from running. Only problem for Mr. Horn would have been that they would have lived to sue.

i feel this way too.
in my house? you had better be a fast MF.
running away from my house? i dunno--- depends on what you did before you started running (definitely against the law in my state).
running away from the NEIGHBOR'S house? gee... "do nothing" is the only *legal* answer around here.

i missed this story the first time around, but i read and listened, etc today.

would some of your opinions be changed if he had first yelled "stop thief!"?

i am kind of on the fence. having your property burglarized is a uniquely horrible feeling. i am pro-life, etc etc etc. but i gotta say. a LOT (but certainly not ALL) of the cops around here are pulling a paycheck at least as much as they are "protecting" the public. take it as you will. and it is a crying shame, too, as the *good* cops get their image tarnished by the bad/crooked/indifferent/etc ones--- just like everything else in life.

a

ohskigod

Demiurge wrote: »

He wasn't in any danger beyond the danger he put himself in. .

And your absolutly sure of that judgement call sitting from your keyboard and typing? honestly?

you knew EXACTLY what was going through his head, every minutia of detail that hapenned that night to make that much of a judgement call? Wow man, just wow.

as I said, in lieu of not being there, I lean toward the guy that did not willfully break the law and create the situation in the first place, call me kooky. Even if we concede that the shooter reacted wrong, I tend to be less judgemental since the shooter did not create the stressful situation, the INVADERS DID!!!

people react wrongly in stressful situations all the time. When there are home invaders and dangerous criminals very close to your house, it isnt like your safety is absolutly guaranteed by staying in the house. Granted, I'll say that a strong argument can be made that he should have stayed in the house, but I believe he genuinly felt that if he stayed there, he was endangering himself by waiting for the afformentioned dangerous criminals in close proximity to his house to act before protecting himself.

I lean toward the shooter genuinly believing the only way he could guarantee his safety was to meet the threat in the open, where he would have control over the situation.

again, you can judge him all you want from the safety of your own home, but your (as well as my) **** was not on the line that night, so maybe we should both shut our yaps as to what was going through his head that day.

in light of not being absolutly sure what was going through his head in regards to what he did and why, I tend to place blame, in the face of unknowns, solely at the feet of those that invaded the sanctity of that neighborhood.

As a society, we place less and less blame on those who break more than just laws, but basic rules of conduct and decency in terms of invading and hurting others for **** going awry and creating bad results. There basic rules to follow in life that change depending on the situation your in, FOLLOW THEM, and you might make it through this thing called life in one piece