Michael Fremer accepts Randi's Challenge
Comments
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Quote #715960? Let me assist you........
Ring a bell? Charlie White ring a bell? If not, I am talking to a brick wall and wasting my time with you.
Gee, sorry, I didn't know where you got that #715960 from, I don't see it. You could have just said post #121.
As far as you being able to do it, just sign up then. -
I'll make it easy for you. read post #158.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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The press release certainly states that is the case. And since no "protocol rules" have been agreed upon by either party in writing...Randi is free to change them I would suppose.
Right, it's a Pear Cable press release, it is not the official challenge rules. -
Tom, pick up Dave next weekend and come on up, we'll have a real cable circle jerk and try to trick each other!!!:D
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I'll make it easy for you. read post #158.
I'll make it easy for you, the link you gave is a PEAR CABLE press release. It is not the official challenge rules.
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
Read them, and quit playing stupid. The protocol is agreed upon by both parties and then:
"5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement in writing of all parties concerned." -
I don't need to hear any of those items to know that they are snake oil. You are the one who thinks you need to hear it first, not me. Nothing hypocritical about that.
Just one more thing, don't you think it is closed minded to just read papers and reports and technical manuals and take it as gospel? Why wouldn't you want to hear something before casting aspersions on it? I mean you say, "You are the one who thinks you need to hear it first, not me" as if that is a bad thing. I can indeed think for myself and go outside the box and make a judgment based on my own senses. I know dog **** is going to be bad for me so I don't eat it, I don't need a scientific explanation for it. However, as ridiculous as some of the tweaks you listed a few posts back seem, I would definitely want to hear them, especially when a 30 day money back guarantee is involved. Without that guarantee I wouldn't try it but that guarantee enables me to make up my own mind as to whether or not something works for me or not.
I know we've talked of this before. I just don't why guys on your side of the fence think we are naive or gullible for wanting to try this stuff for ourselves without it being a scientifically controlled experiment. Don't we all go through life most of the time doing everything subjectively EVERYTHING and never apply scientific RULES to things? That would be a big waste of time. -
To get back on track....
Is there anybody here against somebody publicly showing their ability to distinguish differences in speaker wires? I've never seen a video or a tv show of someone doing it and I think it would be neato. (I've heard differences with drastically different gauges, but I doubt I could do it two brands of the same gauge)
Willie, is this a good enough test to get you to shut the F'up? Really? Is this cool for you and your goonies? When I pass the recorded "test" will you help me to get half a million dollars? Remember, I'll split half of it with you. Half a million for doing what you are doing on this forum. Talking and setting up protocols as well as disputing. You are perfect for the job. Don't get me wrong. I like you. Devil's advocates are always lovely in the audio world. So, what do you say? Please?I would have absolutely no problem doing it. That said, the naysayers would have a field day blabbing about how the test was flawed, and I didn't have 55 blindfolds and it wasn't under "controlled" circumstances, blah, blah, blah.
That said, I would have no problem doing it.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I'll make it easy for you, the link you gave is a PEAR CABLE press release. It is not the official challenge rules.
Read them, and quit playing stupid. The protocol is agreed upon by both parties and then:
I've read enough legal documents to know that NOTHING decribed in the 16 rules means anything unless Randi agrees and signs and returns the application to the applicant. That is the essence of No test protocol for the challenge was stipulated in the original accusation, however James Randi reserves the right to change test protocol in any way he personally desires.This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). All correspondence must be written, and will be answered, in English only, except that properly-prepared translations into English accompanied by certification of the qualifications of the translator, will be accepted. Upon properly completing this document and agreeing upon the test protocol, applicant will receive the application back, signed by JR. At that point, the applicant becomes eligible for the preliminary test, which, if successful, will result in the formal test."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Just one more thing, don't you think it is closed minded to just read papers and reports and technical manuals and take it as gospel? Why wouldn't you want to hear something before casting aspersions on it?
On most things, yes, I would want to hear it first. But telephone calls that improve your system? Shining light on CD's to improve their sound? There is a difference between being open minded, and being just plain gullible.
And there is no money back gaurantee on the Teleportation Tweak. He removed it a few days after releasing it. I wonder why? -
Quit changing the subject.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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WilliamM2 have you ever tried different cables? Don't knock it until you try it. You may or may not hear a difference. You also have to consider the gear you are using, I won't use high end Cables on my Denon, but If I still had my ..er.. blakeh and SKsolutions Adcoms I would be trying any cable I could get my hands on. I went up the cheapy ladder with cables and noticed small improvements, and a couple of polkies here let me borrow their cables that were a on the lower side of expensive and the difference was almost night and day. If you system lacks the resolution, you are not going to hear the difference, and if your ears lack the resolution it's all together point less. Out of curiosity what gear are you running?
My findings 1 2 3 4 -
Willie, is this a good enough test to get you to shut the F'up? Really? Is this cool for you and your goonies? When I pass the recorded "test" will you help me to get half a million dollars? Remember, I'll split half of it with you. Half a million for doing what you are doing on this forum. Talking and setting up protocols as well as disputing. You are perfect for the job. Don't get me wrong. I like you. Devil's advocates are always lovely in the audio world. So, what do you say? Please?
I already have said that if even one person could pass a controlled test, I would believe that cables could make a difference.
As far as helping you win the prize, I don't see how I could. You have to fill out the application, and you have to come up with a protocol that is controlled, and that you are comfortable with. That would mean contacting the JREF yourself. -
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'Nuff said. I'm the guy.I already have said that if even one person could pass a controlled test, I would believe that cables could make a difference.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
shoot with the right rig I could probably tell you tooI responded to his question, sorry if it offended you. -
I've read enough legal documents to know that NOTHING decribed in the 16 rules means anything unless Randi agrees and signs and returns the application to the applicant. That is the essence of No test protocol for the challenge was stipulated in the original accusation, however James Randi reserves the right to change test protocol in any way he personally desires.
No test protocol can be stipulated, until the JREF and the applicant agree upon one. Once they do that, it can't be changed. The Pear Cable press release claims Randi can change it any way he wants, at any time. That just isn't true.
And as far as I know, Fremer has not even filed an application yet. Probably never will. -
Cable believers and disbelievers lets just agree to disagree before some one gets banned, you guys know how these things turn out.:D
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Great, now I'm gonna get banned for typing banned great, by the end of this post I'm going to be quadruple banned.
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If Randi was serious about the challenge (and I doubt he is) the test protocol would be developed and determined by a disinterested 3rd party agreed upon by both the applicant and Randi. As it stands now there will never be any test protocol agreed upon because if there is even a hint of success, Randi simply has to NOT agree to a protocol or if he screws up and actually allows something that might succeed he can claim the preliminary test did not pass the criteria to proceed to the final test.
This so called "challenge" is so full of holes and escape clauses that Randi will go to his grave knowing his personal $10,000 and the foundations $1,000,000 will never even see a whiff of a test.
8. When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.
11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization. Although others may become involved in the examination of claims and may add their reward money to the total in certain circumstances, James Randi (via the JREF) will carry out the implementation and management of the challenge. JREF will not entertain any demand that the prize money be deposited in escrow, displayed in cash, or otherwise produced in advance of the test being performed"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Well, as the king of naysayers I thought that you would have had a test procedure ready, considering you and your goonies debunk all of ours.As far as helping you win the prize, I don't see how I could. You have to fill out the application, and you have to come up with a protocol that is controlled, and that you are comfortable with.
You mean to tell me that we have been debating all this time and you don't have a proper test that you folks would not accept as fact? Tell me it's not true?
Simple. Type it up. I'll submit it. Get me accepted. Half a Million Dollars. What have you and all of your goonies got to lose. Collectively, you can do it! ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
WilliamM2 have you ever tried different cables? Don't knock it until you try it.
I have tried it, I used to believe just as you do. Then I actually got involved in blind testing at a local dealer. None of the participants could identify any difference between the cables. It was a cheap rig though, all McIntosh gear. -
Quit changing the subject.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Well, as the king of naysayers I thought that you would have had a test procedure ready, considering you and your goonies debunk all of ours.
You mean to tell me that we have been debating all this time and you don't have a proper test that you folks would not accept as fact? Tell me it's not true?
Simple. Type it up. I'll submit it. Get me accepted. Half a Million Dollars. What have you and all of your goonies got to lose. Collectively, you can do it!
Randi has already stated that the use of an ABX comparator would be fine. Sounds good to me as well, but would you agree to it? -
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dudeinaroom wrote: »WilliamM2 have you ever tried different cables? Don't knock it until you try it. You may or may not hear a difference. You also have to consider the gear you are using, I won't use high end Cables on my Denon, but If I still had my ..er.. blakeh and SKsolutions Adcoms I would be trying any cable I could get my hands on. I went up the cheapy ladder with cables and noticed small improvements, and a couple of polkies here let me borrow their cables that were a on the lower side of expensive and the difference was almost night and day. If you system lacks the resolution, you are not going to hear the difference, and if your ears lack the resolution it's all together point less. Out of curiosity what gear are you running?
My findings 1 2 3 4
DUDE, reasoning doesn't work for cable debunkers, they know all, see all and hear all. Stop being gulliable and just collectively decide cables don't make a difference and be sure to never find out for yourself. And for christ sakes don't be objective in your findings.........what were you thinking.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I already have said that if even one person could pass a controlled test, I would believe that cables could make a difference.
OMFG, that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. If I prove to you cables make a difference then you will be a believer. WTF, DUDE?
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Let's see I've never tried ice cream and I don't think it would taste good, but if you try it and like it then I will like it too.
Youa have to be a bigger WACK JOB than JohnK.
Really, I'm practically speechless. What a totally bassackward thing to write. I hope your in a rubber room, because if you're not you could be dangerous to the general population.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
The Pear Cable press release claims Randi can change it any way he wants, at any time. That just isn't true.
And just when was it you personally spoke to Randi and got this info? I'm thiking someone like Pear cable, who happens to be in the industry, might and mean might (by just a little bit) have more insight than you do.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
OMFG, that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. If I prove to you cables make a difference then you will be a believer. WTF, DUDE? .
Let's see I've never tried ice cream and I don't think it would taste good, but if you try it and like it then I will like it too.
Youa have to be a bigger WACK JOB than JohnK.
Really, I'm practically speechless. What a totally bassackward thing to write. I hope your in a rubber room, because if you're not you could be dangerous to the general population.
H9
If someone, anyone, could pass a controlled test, it would prove that there are differences in the sound of cables. Of course I would still be unable to hear it, never said I would be able to, just that I would believe that cables could make a difference.
Instead of throwing insults, trying to defend your religion, why don't you explain why not one person has been able to demonstrate this to anyone in a controlled test? -
And just when was it you personally spoke to Randi and got this info? I'm thiking someone like Pear cable, who happens to be in the industry, might and mean might (by just a little bit) have more insight than you do.
H9
I didn't have to talk to Randi to get this info, I read the contest rules, I also linked to them above if you would care to read them.
Apparently Adam Blake can't read, or maybe, just maybe, he is purposefully trying to mislead people. I can't imagine someone in the industry would do that.:rolleyes: -
If someone, anyone, could pass a controlled test, it would prove that there are differences in the sound of cables. Of course I would still be unable to hear, never said I would be able to, just that I would believe that cables could make a difference.
Instead of throwing insults, trying to defend your religion, why don't you explain why not one person has been able to demonstrate this to anyone in a controlled test?
Yeah the insult was a little strong. Bottom line is I do hear a difference and that's good enough for me. I apologize I can't prove it to you so you can be a believer too.
I still don't understand if you feel you can't hear a difference why you would give a rats **** why anybody else does. Sounds to me like you are arguing for the sake of arguing and that *can* be a borderline mental cond.
I wish I had the same passion to prove to YOU that cables make a difference as your passion for US to prove it to you. I simply (and selfishly) only care about how it affects me with my rig in my listening environment with my music at my leisure. Sorry, but you'll have to learn on your own. In your case though, what's to learn or experience you already said you don't hear a difference. Case closed!
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
This discussion has been closed.