Michael Fremer accepts Randi's Challenge

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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Being that the audio world is "full of them" (snake oil merchants); what percentage do you know for a fact are snake oil merchants? Where is your research data on this topic?

    I have no idea of the percentage, but I hope you are not saying snake oil merchants do not exist.

    Couple of examples for you:

    www.machinadynamica.com

    http://www.shakti-innovations.com/index.html

    http://www.bedini.com/quadribeam.htm
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    jdhdiggs wrote: »
    I'm going to go ahead and through the BS flag on that one. 9 times out of 10 when this stuff comes up, it's those that hear that difference that go into the name calling and bashing of other people or their systems or just generally come off as arrogant ****. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't have responded or even opened the thread.

    Most non-believers WANT to experiment, WANT to see this phenomenon for themselves and then try to figure out why it doesn't work for them, or perhaps invest enough so it does. It's not so much as to "debunk" the theory, but rather prove that it can happen. Believers seem to want the opposite. They want to generate excuses before anything happens, they refuse to be the test subjects, they are the ones that don't want to see the results. Why is that? Especially if you don't care?

    You have got to be kidding! First off where are you getting this 9 out of 10? You got the data to back that up?

    I don't know about anyone else but I really don't give a flip enough to become a white rat or as you put it "test subject."

    Produce a test where I will get paid for my participation within a hour drive of my home and I'll be glad to participate!
    If not . . .
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    I have no idea of the percentage, but I hope you are not saying snake oil merchants do not exist.

    Couple of examples for you:

    www.machinadynamica.com

    http://www.shakti-innovations.com/index.html

    http://www.bedini.com/quadribeam.htm

    I did not say that! You did. Sure there are snake oil purveyors all facets of our lives.

    BTW have you tried any of the three products above? I don't think you did. As a matter of fact I'll bet you that you didn't but are calling it snake oil.

    I think they sound rediculous too and if you remember and I'm sure you will I said a couple of months when someone posted the machindynamica teleportation tweak that I felt hypicritical by saying it sounds like **** . . . you agreed but I also included that I HAD NOT HEARD THEM OR TRIED THEM so I think that must be done FIRST before yelling snake oil.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    BTW I think if Randi, who by the way is a snake oil champion, after all the guy made a living out of illusions, is doing anything more than trying to keep in the lime light and be honest here, I think Fremer will come out with flying colors.

    Randi never claimed his illusions were real. Other magicians did, that is why he started the JREF in the first place. Hardly snake oil.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Randi never claimed his illusions were real. Other magicians did, that is why he started the JREF in the first place. Hardly snake oil.

    So an illusionist is now to be taken seriously as a scientist or is it what he reads!!!

    You crack me up William, the guy made what seems to be a pretty good living off of fooling people and you don't want to assign the tag snake oil to that.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    I did not say that! You did. Sure there are snake oil purveyors all facets of our lives.

    BTW have you tried any of the three products above? I don't think you did. As a matter of fact I'll bet you that you didn't but are calling it snake oil.

    I think they sound rediculous too and if you remember and I'm sure you will I said a couple of months when someone posted the machindynamica teleportation tweak that I felt hypicritical by saying it sounds like **** . . . you agreed but I also included that I HAD NOT HEARD THEM OR TRIED THEM so I think that must be done FIRST before yelling snake oil.

    I don't need to hear any of those items to know that they are snake oil. You are the one who thinks you need to hear it first, not me. Nothing hypocritical about that.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Randi never claimed his illusions were real. Other magicians did, that is why he started the JREF in the first place. Hardly snake oil.
    Then why would he put up a challenge stating that the participant makes the call on the test and later says that "James Randi reserves the right to change test protocol in any way he personally desires".

    Not going to get into it, but that's plain BS. This is not an illusion, it's a mind trip. Snake oil, no?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    So an illusionist is now to be taken seriously as a scientist or is it what he reads!!!

    You crack me up William, the guy made what seems to be a pretty good living off of fooling people and you don't want to assign the tag snake oil to that.


    Randi was an entertainer, are all entertainers snake oil? He never claimed to be a scientist.

    Personally, I think his work the last thirty years debunking faith healers, psychics and others that take advantage of weak people is a lofty cause.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Then why would he put up a challenge stating that the participant makes the call on the test and later says that "James Randi reserves the right to change test protocol in any way he personally desires".

    Not going to get into it, but that's plain BS. This is not an illusion, it's a mind trip. Snake oil, no?

    Do you have link to that? Or is it more of Yashu's "reading between the lines"?

    Here is what it says on the rules:

    "5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned."
    Full rules:
    http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    "WilliamM2 wrote:
    Randi was an entertainer, are all entertainers snake oil? He never claimed to be a scientist.

    Personally, I think his work the last thirty years debunking faith healers, psychics and others that take advantage of weak people is a lofty cause.

    Good cause, yes. Mind games with people that know their stuff and have experience...plus have money to experiment/play around with all sorts of audio gear? He's a fool. I wish him luck.

    Put his video camera's in my house and let him swap or not swap the SC's as he chooses. Blindfolded or not, I will tell him when he is lying and when he actually switched the cables.

    Is that so hard to understand? It's really not that hard. Really.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Do you have link to that?
    Here is what it says on the rules:

    "5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned."
    Full rules:
    http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

    Yes sir, here's a link. ;)
    http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-b...not-311034.php

    5th paragraph or so......
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    Where'd you go? hehe. :D
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote:
    Personally, I think his work the last thirty years debunking faith healers, psychics and others that take advantage of weak people is a lofty cause.

    I think it pays well.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Yes sir, here's a link. ;)
    http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-b...not-311034.php

    5th paragraph or so......

    That is a link to Pears response, Adam Blake said it, not to mention several other falsehoods in the statement. I gave you a link to the rules, read them.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Where'd you go? hehe. :D

    I was eating dinner, clam chowder.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    Huh?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Nothing hypocritical about that.

    Indeed there is and I am not going to waste another keystroke in explaining that one.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    shack wrote: »
    I think it pays well.

    I believe I read he gets paid about $180,000 a year. A bit less than some heads of non-profit organizations.

    Update:

    http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=27#i8
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Huh?


    You asked where I went, I told you I was eating dinner, and what I ate. Is it really that difficult?
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    A bit less than some heads of non-profit organizations.

    There you go, throw some non related info into the mix to take the focus off!!! Smoke and mirrors taught very well I'm sure by Randi.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    I was eating dinner, clam chowder.

    White or red . . . Manhatten or New England? I love clam chowder. . . we agree on food methinks.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    White or red . . . Manhatten or New England? I love clam chowder. . . we agree on food methinks.


    White, new england.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    You asked where I went, I told you I was eating dinner, and what I ate. Is it really that difficult?
    The quote above that one. I could care less what you ate.

    Provide where you got your information debunking my link please, since I provided a link for you. That's fair, don't you think?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    Once again, I see we are off topic. See quote #715960.

    Then talk your sheite WilliamM2. I'm there for you.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2007
    6 pages already? This one is going a bit longer than the monthly cable discussion threads on the forum.
    I guess there is more data now....
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    The quote above that one. I could care less what you ate.

    Provide where you got your information debunking my link please, since I provided a link for you. That's fair, don't you think?

    From your own link?

    "When we asked Adam Blake who contacted who first, he told us, "Fremer contacted Randi first and we have been in contact with Mr. Fremer. Pear Cable has had no direct contact with James Randi."

    I also gave you a link to the rules, especially Rule #5. Here it is again.

    "5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned."


    Now if you can show me where it states in the rules that Randi may change the protocol as he desires, it may help your case.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,775
    edited October 2007
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Once again, I see we are off topic. See quote #715960.

    Then talk your sheite WilliamM2. I'm there for you.

    Quote #715960? You lost me, but thanks for being there for me.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    White, new england.

    Yum I like my New England with Franks Hot Sauce and cracked black pepper. Not Tabasco, it's too salty.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited October 2007
    Quote #715960? Let me assist you........
    treitz3 wrote: »
    I would have absolutely no problem doing it. That said, the naysayers would have a field day blabbing about how the test was flawed, and I didn't have 55 blindfolds and it wasn't under "controlled" circumstances, blah, blah, blah.

    That said, I would have no problem doing it.

    Ring a bell? Charlie White ring a bell? If not, I am talking to a brick wall and wasting my time with you.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2007
    WilliamM2 wrote:
    Now if you can show me where it states in the rules that Randi may change the protocol as he desires, it may help your case.

    The press release certainly states that is the case. And since no "protocol rules" have been agreed upon by either party in writing...Randi is free to change them I would suppose.
    1 Million Speaker Cable Challenge Accepted

    Audiophile Reviewer Michael Fremer Agrees to Double-Blind Loudspeaker Cable Test

    Newton, Mass. - October 15, 2007 - Responding to accusations that the high-fidelity Pear Cable Anjou loudspeaker cables could not be differentiated from typical equivalent Monster Cable, Michael Fremer, writer for Stereophile Magazine and musicangle.com, has agreed to double-blind listening tests to prove that cables can be differentiated sonically. Accuser James Randi has claimed to offer a $1 million dollar prize if the high-fidelity cables can be detected.

    While Pear Cable remains highly skeptical that the challenge is genuine, full support for Michael Fremer's effort has been offered. Although the cables to be used in the test have not yet been selected, Pear Cable has offered to loan Mr. Fremer any Pear cables necessary to conduct the test if he desires to use them.

    To date, James Randi has provided no scientific evidence of any kind to support his accusations. No test protocol for the challenge was stipulated in the original accusation, however James Randi reserves the right to change test protocol in any way he personally desires.

    Official rules for the James Randi Educational Foundation challenge state that $1 Million will be paid to "any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability." Michael Fremer has expressly stated as a condition of his challenge acceptance that he does not possess any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal abilities, and that he does not believe he has above average hearing. Fremer has also asked that interconnects be tested in addition to loudspeaker cables unless James Randi will concede that they affect sound quality
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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