Michael Fremer accepts Randi's Challenge

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I didn't have to talk to Randi to get this info, I read the contest rules, I also linked to them above if you would care to read them.

Apparently Adam Blake can't read, or maybe, just maybe, he is purposefully trying to mislead people. I can't imagine someone in the industry would do that.:rolleyes:

So you conveniently choose to believe the things you read that support your POV. IE; what Randi writes is 100% infallable and NOT open to scrutiny, but what Pear cables writes is. Interesting and classic all at the same time.

I'm sure an entertainer who makes his living manipulating people with illusions isn't trying to purposefully mislead anyone either. :rolleyes:

Sheesh...............

WilliamM2

So you conveniently choose to believe the things you read that support your POV. IE; what Randi writes is 100% infallable and NOT open to scrutiny, but what Pear cables writes is. Interesting and classic all at the same time.

Randi has stated his rules, and so far, I see no reason not to think he will honor them. Never said he was infallable.

Blake claims Randi can change the protocol as he sees fit, but he doesn't bother to back that claim up, does he? Am I supposed to think it's true, just because he said it? In a press release?

treitz3

Brick wall.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

On most things, yes, I would want to hear it first. But telephone calls that improve your system? Shining light on CD's to improve their sound? There is a difference between being open minded, and being just plain gullible.

And there is no money back gaurantee on the Teleportation Tweak. He removed it a few days after releasing it. I wonder why?

There you go. Doing it again man. I said I would want to first hear it, and I said a 30 day money back guarantee enables me to do so. All of the products listed and not listed in those three threads except for the "Teleportation Tweak" have 30 DMBG. Now that one I can and will call it **** and anyone who buys it gullible because there is no guarantee. The problem you naysayers face is that most and I don't know the exact figures offer a 30 money back guarantee. That is why unless YOU and the NAYSAYERS don't have a leg to stand on because your studies say it can't work so you won't try it! but you want us to prove in your lobsided tests that we can identify cables. That is BS. If there is a difference to be heard in two different cable then I very confident that audiophiles who have the experience can detect the difference.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I have tried it, I used to believe just as you do. Then I actually got involved in blind testing at a local dealer. None of the participants could identify any difference between the cables. It was a cheap rig though, all McIntosh gear.

I can't stand McIntosh gear . . .just doesn't float my boat. I don't like the sound of a lot of good gear that people or reviewers rave about. Your test above is flawed. How can anyone in an alien environment with equipment they are not familiar with, with cables they are not familiar with "name that cable" like the song. That is so flawed it is not funny.

I did notice that you DIDN'T say, "I tried it in my own rig."

Another thing, you witnessed that, "None of the participants could identify any difference between the cables." That sealed it for you huh. So every audiophile is a gullible, delusional fool because a local dealer conducted a "blind test" and a few guys couldn't identify the cables. How unscientific is that.

Ricardo

Ok; if you don't stop this boring thread (you could always take your back and forth to PM's), I swear I will report you guys to Polk Management. I have not reported anyone yet.....but don't try to test me........

Polk owns this forum, you know?

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

Ok; if you don't stop this boring thread (you could always take your back and forth to PM's), I swear I will report you guys to Polk Management. I have not reported anyone yet.....but don't try to test me........

Polk owns this forum, you know?

Sorry R, wouldn't want to anger the Polk Gods (made up fictional corporate types who field compliants from whiney new members).

H9

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

why don't you explain why not one person has been able to demonstrate this to anyone in a controlled test?

How do you know that? Have you a corner on the information super highway that all controlled tests results are to be funneled through your computer. These are rediculous blanket statements that you are making. You have maybe a dozen guys telling you that they can hear a difference with cables in their rigs. How blindly, gullibly, stubborn can you be because of the results of one test you may have witnessed and then any others you may have read about say it is not possible to IDENTIFY cable A or cable B.

This is why I find you guys with this attitude very entertaining.

Try the cables in your own rig. . . I'll go out on a limb here and say that you can probably get every cable with a 30 day money back guarantee . . . and I'll close with this . . .

. . . YOU PROVE TO US THAT YOU CAN'T HEAR A DIFFERENCE!!! Tables are turned now my friend. . . oh what's that you don't want or need to prove that to us, well then kindly stop this debate until you have some credibility by attempting to prove things by the rules I just stipulated.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Apparently Adam Blake can't read, or maybe, just maybe, he is purposefully trying to mislead people. I can't imagine someone in the industry would do that.:rolleyes:

I'm sure he has more credibility than the illusionist Randi.

Spacedeckman

Sona wrote: »

Consider the audiophile. Put 10 different cables in their systems and they will be able to tell you which one is in.

But, the true question isn't which one is in, it's which one sounds better. Who cares what brand it is until you need to identify it to purchase them.

I helped a friend develop some cables he was going to market. I sat in his listening room for a long time, listening to various cables and taking notes on what my perceptions were on each one. I had a dealer do the same, only to identify that I had the same preference as he did, almost directly inverse of price.

I have had speaker cables that sounded great on my boss' system, but were like a wet blanket covering mine. Same with interconnects. He sent a pair home with me that retailed for $400. I warmed my system up for an hour, did a baseline with the current set-up, then put in the "new" cables. The sound was so bright and edgy, that I immediately pulled them and put them back in the package they came in. I called my boss, and he laughed. Same impression he had.

There are differences in cable, but then again, there are supposed to be. They are designed to act as equalizers in many cases. I've even heard differences in the plugs used on interconnects. In early experiments at home, I used cheap Radio Shack plugs so I could test out a variety of things with no big investment. When I went to higher quality ends, I noticed a big difference, especially in the bass. The RS plugs had "big" bass, but it was fuzzy, unfocused. The better ones "cleaned it up" noticeably. Don't ask me why, I wasn't the only one that heard it.
The RS plugs were kind of fun for a while, but got tiresome.

Again, it's not "which", it's "which is better". If you always pick the same one or two out of 10, that in itself is showing a preference, which is all an audiophile needs.

Mark

WilliamM2

I did notice that you DIDN'T say, "I tried it in my own rig."

Of course I tried it on my own rig. But to be honest, there is no way for me to do a true blind test on my own rig, as I have to swap the cables myself.

WilliamM2

How do you know that? Have you a corner on the information super highway that all controlled tests results are to be funneled through your computer.

Can you provide one link to a controlled test with positive results? I can't find one, maybe you can?

ka7niq

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Passive/aggressive behavior, is typical of those with low self esteem and a pathological need for attention/acceptance. I'm not kidding.:)
QUOTE]
Exactly the type of behavior YOU are displaying here DK.

steveinaz

FWIW, better cables don't always sound better. I did not like the Audioquest Diamondback, though it was 3 times the price of my Copperheads. In my system, the Diamondback was very dry, 2-dimensional.

My point? Cost doesn't always dictate what is better sounding. Yet another hole in the placebo effect theory. I sold off my more expensive Diamondbacks and went back to the much cheaper Copperheads. Why? The copperhead simply sounded better in my system.

I think Shack found the same thing when he tried them..? Right Shack-master?

treitz3

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Of course I tried it on my own rig. But to be honest, there is no way for me to do a true blind test on my own rig, as I have to swap the cables myself.

William, that is simply not true unless you have no friends or you live in a town with a population of 1.

shack

WilliamM2 wrote:

I have tried it, I used to believe

WilliamM2 wrote:

I DID hear a difference, and no one could convince me otherwise

WilliamM2 wrote:

a couple cable comparisons I sat in on at a local dealer, showed me I was wrong

WilliamM2 wrote:

I know if Fremer passes the test, I will believe it

WilliamM2 wrote:

I already have said that if even one person could pass a controlled test, I would believe that cables could make a difference.

WilliamM2 wrote:

I did it (a double blind test) on my own equipment at home, as well as a comparison at the dealer

WilliamM2 wrote:

But to be honest, there is no way for me to do a true blind test on my own rig, as I have to swap the cables myself.

I like the way Michael takes a stand and stays true to his beliefs...not to be swayed by others.

Sounds like a political candidate in a line to kiss babies.

I'll admit that I once was a "non" believer and then was proved to be wrong. I'm not going to change my position again.

shack

ka7niq wrote:

Exactly the type of behavior YOU are displaying here DK.

Can't you find another forum to go and get banned from?

WilliamM2

treitz3 wrote: »

William, that is simply not true unless you have no friends or you live in a town with a population of 1.

None of my current friends are into audio like I am. They think the amount of money I have in my system is insane. Even if one of them were willing to spend his time helping, I'm not sure I want them touching my equipment. I will admit I am very anal about my equipment! Even my 18 year old SDA-1C's look like they were bought yesterday.

There is also the issue of how to do a controlled test without any special equipment. I would want instant changes of cables, not 5 minutes between each one. I would love to get my hands on an ABX comparator. This would allow instant changes, without any help, and would be truly blind.

dudeinaroom

hearingimpared wrote: »

...Try the cables in your own rig. . . I'll go out on a limb here and say that you can probably get every cable with a 30 day money back guarantee . . . and I'll close with this . . .

that's only if his rig is up to par.

heiney9 wrote: »

Sorry R, wouldn't want to anger the Polk Gods (made up fictional corporate types who field compliants from whiney new members).

H9

I didn't know HTRookie was new????

you want an a/b here you go, you must not have read any of the links I had posted.

dudeinaroom wrote: »

candyliquor35m was kind enough to let me audition a pair of kimber kable pbj's to demo. This offer came from this post
click me baby

WOW. Man I gotta buy me some $1000 dollar interconnects! If these sound this nice (I've seen them for around $75 on the net) I can only imagine what more expensive cables would do.

First thing I noticed was how much more the treble was detailed. It's almost like some one removed a light sheet from in front of my speakers. The midrange is very smooth and natural sounding. And the bass has more impact and depth. My wife could also tell the difference. My player has two sets of out puts on it and I ran the kimbers off of one set, and the philips cables off the other. One set is hooked into the cd input and the other is hooked into the video/aux input. I had my wife listen as I switched form one input to the other and she could tell the difference, as she did for me and I could also tell tell the difference. I have switched the cables from one set of inputs to the other, and same with the outputs just to make sure that they were not a factor. The 5.1 out put sound a little better( I have the rear, center, and sub all set to none as this is only a 2ch rig).

The only thing I have run through them so far is classical. I have always liked classical music, but with these cables I now enjoy classical music. I always though cabling would make a difference, but I am shocked at how much of a difference it could make. Now I'm not talking night and day more like dusk and day, but it is more that I though I would hear out of just some wires. For those of you who cannot hear a difference either your rig is just not enough to convey the difference, your ears just can't pick it up, the cables you are trying are of similar quality, or lastly you are just in denial.

These cables also have changed the sound stage. Before the kimbers woodwinds, and strings alway sounded as if they were placed dead center. I was listening to Tchaikovsky's Dance or the Reed Pipes, and I noticed that the woodwinds were no longer centered, they were just to the left of center, uhh maybe I'm just out of the sweet spot, wait the small strings are just right of center sweet. I could now hear even better placement to cool. On Mahlers Adagietto from sym. #5 the strings and woodwinds had traded spots. Then I can also hear layers of instruments as if one group is behind the other, and also the way the instruments are laid out side to side. I also came back to Khachaturian's Sabre Dance. It made you want to get up and run around like a mad man It just had so much energy, raw power, and then smooth and mellow.

I really like these cables, I'm going to have to hurry up and send them back before I get addicted. Oh to late. I am starting to hate HiFi, as it is going to just totally ruin my financial life, oh well it's worth it.

Thanks for the experience Carl. I really appreciate it. You will see your pbj's back around the end of the month.

Later all,

Ted

WilliamM2

I like the way Michael takes a stand and stays true to his beliefs...not to be swayed by others.

Sounds like a political candidate in a line to kiss babies.

Not really, I did do a double blind test on my rig years ago, when I had a friend that was into audio. Problem was, the only way to make it blind, was to actually leave the room while my buddy switched, or did not switch the cables. Too much time between cables to get good results.

I'll admit that I once was a "non" believer and then was proved to be wrong. I'm not going to change my position again.

Unwilling to change your mind, no matter what evidence is presented. An open mind eh?

treitz3

William, You are always making excuses why you can't do tests and why you can't make it to Polkfest. Yes, I remember what you said on the PC thread.

I have already said that I would be willing to publicly show that I have the normal [to me] ability to notice a change in speaker wires can change the sound reproduction in a system.

So, without being rude, I'm asking you to either hook up with another forum member who lives close by you who could demonstrate a test for you, or really try to make it to a Polkfest.

Granted, you might not be able to pick up on any change. If you witnessed someone else blindfolded, double bling, triple blind....whatever who could tell you whether or not a change is present and whether the cable was even switched or not..............

Would it really make you believe?

If so, refer to the highlighted sentence above.

dudeinaroom

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Not really, I did do a double blind test on my rig years ago, when I had a friend that was into audio. Problem was, the only way to make it blind, was to actually leave the room while my buddy switched, or did not switch the cables. Too much time between cables to get good results.



Unwilling to change your mind, no matter what evidence is presented. An open mind eh?

what evidence??? he found out for himself there is a difference, what more evidence do you need????? so if Joe Blow tells him that there is no difference and shack knows there is a difference, you are saying he should believe Joe Blow?? 1 question, what planet are you from????????????????????

treitz3

Ricardo wrote: »

Ok; if you don't stop this boring thread (you could always take your back and forth to PM's), I swear I will report you guys to Polk Management. I have not reported anyone yet.....but don't try to test me........

Polk owns this forum, you know?

Report anybody for what? Having an audio related discussion on a Polk audio Board located within the 2 channel audio forum? :mad:

I should report you for posting an off topic statement while making threats in the middle of an audio related subject. :rolleyes:

If we are boring you, read a different thread.

dorokusai

It's a joke Treitz, based on some rhetoric that ka7niq stated at another inquisition, relax.

treitz3

Went over my head, my bad.:o

dorokusai

Let's hug, talk about high school, girls and making tea cozies.

dudeinaroom

dorokusai wrote: »

Let's hug, talk about high school, girls and poke their cozies.

shack

William M2 wrote:

Not really, I did do a double blind test on my rig years ago, when I had a friend that was into audio. Problem was, the only way to make it blind, was to actually leave the room while my buddy switched, or did not switch the cables. Too much time between cables to get good results.

Unwilling to change your mind, no matter what evidence is presented. An open mind eh?

Once something has been PROVED to my satisfaction and there is no additional information available to disprove it...I cease to have an open mind. I learned a long time ago that 1+1=2. It was proved to me. I no longer need to verify the facts with more testing and research. Same with my belief of cable differences. It was proved...case closed.

I do find it interesting that your experience with double blind testing /listening was sufficient to prove to you that there is no difference...but others blind testing (such as mine) should not be sufficient to prove it to me unless I am willing to go through someone else's criteria for proving it. A double standard perhaps?

I am willing to concede that you DIDN'T hear in your testing. Maybe you have poor hearing, maybe it was some sort of psychological issue, maybe you had clam chowder in your ears....I don't know. But I will concede that YOU did not hear a difference in your experience without asking for you to prove it (it is difficult prove absence of perception without a method of sensing brain waves or something). It is evident you are not willing to do the same.

shack

dorokusai wrote: »

Let's hug

I'll hug your wife....but not you!

WilliamM2

William, You are always making excuses why you can't do tests and why you can't make it to Polkfest. Yes, I remember what you said on the PC thread.

What excuses? I have done the tests, I have compared cables. I was just explaining the difficulty of doing it at home. A difficulty none of you will admit to.

As far as Polkfest, I'm sorry I did not have time to attend, I do have a job, and also run a business out of my home. My employer does not allow vacations between Sept. 15 and Dec. 15, as that is our busiest time of the year. BTW, did you do controlled cable tests at Polkfest? If not, what's your point?