Michael Fremer accepts Randi's Challenge

PolkThug

http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=27

SOUNDS LIKE ACCEPTANCE!

It’s not often that one of the noisy woo-woos out there actually accepts to take the JREF challenge, but we just may have such a one! It’s Michael Fremer, who signs himself as “senior contributing editor, Stereophile Magazine.” Now, we’ve sniped away at Stereophile many times here on SWIFT, and offered them the JREF million-dollar prize, repeatedly – with no response. But that may have changed. I must admit, I feel like a hungry lion who just had a flock of tasty lambs wander into his valley…!

wingnut4772

After just watching his turntable video I would say he is a good choice to try. He's witty, knowlegeable and has a great sense of humour. Good PR for Sterophile as well.

WilliamM2

I expect him to back out, blaming the JREF foundation somehow to save face.

After all, imagine how bad PR would be if he fails.

wingnut4772

There's no such thing as bad publicity and they will just fall back on the subjectivity of it all..different hearing etc.

madmax

All nonsense. If you hear a difference, you hear a difference. Will you be able to hear it tomorrow? Who knows. How often have you listened one day and noticed something and the next day the whole rig sounds like crap...

ninerbj

All nonsense. If you hear a difference, you hear a difference. Will you be able to hear it tomorrow? Who knows. How often have you listened one day and noticed something and the next day the whole rig sounds like crap...

If this is the case with very expensive cables, then you have proven without a doubt they are not worth the money.

LuSh

Madmax has proven nothing. Nobody on this forum has any experience with cables over $5k because nobody on this forum has any in home experience with 25k + speakers; nor do I. And because I don't, I really don't have an opinion. Worth is an entirely subjective opinion.

I use what I feel are good cables; but they're mere tone controls nothing more. A relatively easy way to customize or tweak a system. If I want a different sound I simply disconnect the Harmonic's and connect my Kimbers or Audience. I find this much cheaper (and easier) then hauling in amplifiers and speakers every 6 months.

ka7niq

LuSh wrote: »

Madmax has proven nothing. Nobody on this forum has any experience with cables over $5k because nobody on this forum has any in home experience with 25k + speakers; nor do I. And because I don't, I really don't have an opinion. Worth is an entirely subjective opinion.

I use what I feel are good cables; but they're mere tone controls nothing more. A relatively easy way to customize or tweak a system. If I want a different sound I simply disconnect the Harmonic's and connect my Kimbers or Audience. I find this much cheaper (and easier) then hauling in amplifiers and speakers every 6 months.

Hey, I HAD a Bitstream DAC.
It finally broke, and I let the guy who worked for Meitner modify it.
Ruined it, IMHO.
I sold it.
I really liked that DAC, stock.

Music Joe

In addition, according to the editor of Stereophile magazine John Atkinson, James Randi has completely fabricated the statements about Atkinson made in this "challenge". Furthermore, another audiophile who goes by the moniker "Wellfed" on the AudioAsylum forums, says he tried to take the challenge twice for what I consider a more dubious audio tweak (the GSIC chip), but was denied the opportunity and was lied to by the Randi Foundation. Finally, according to forum posts… at least one person has tried to take the "challenge" previously to show that they could differentiate between loudspeaker cables and they were denied by Randi who said "Wire is not wire. I accept that."

Gawd I remember following the negotiations thread between wellfed & randi.
It's a hoot...
if you can stay awake



zzzzzzzzz

treitz3

madmax wrote:

How often have you listened one day and noticed something and the next day the whole rig sounds like crap...

I don't think I have ever had that happen, but this is the second time lately this was mentioned.

Curiosity makes me want to ask what changed? Temp./ humidity w/ ribbons, cat hair/dust on electrostat's, lower current supply from overloaded electrical system, door open/shut, other half's mouth running, AC on when it wasn't on before, open window, ambient background noises, drinking alcohol, tubes not warm gear not warmed up, moved furniture/plants, different genre of music or was it possibly your ears readjusting to and from conditions that were either low/loud prior to listening as compared to the day before.

???

Yashu

I wish him well and hope that he is not tricked by the trickster. Randi made his name tricking well-intentioned scientists with his skills as a magician. He is not an ethical man.

However, I believe that with the proper test, and if randi approves, then the million could be won. I read Pear Cable's reply to all of this and was surprised to see that they agreed with the things that I had said in the other thread. I don't know if that lends any credibility to what I said, it was just interesting to see that others agree.

I have a feeling, however, that this challenge will not go through the preliminary stages, because if randi suspects that the test is arranged to be accurate enough to give clear results, then he might disqualify on some arbitrary reason. Randi is an ****, but he isn't stupid. This is less a test of cable and more a test of the ethics of randi himself. I still find it funny that he does not allow measurement equipment, it is almost like his challenge is meant to be ironic. On the one hand he derides audiophiles for the subjective improvements of cable, but on the other, he does not allow objective measurement of the differences between the cable.

LuSh

ka7niq/ABX whatever your name or handle is; you're the only person (with at least 20 I've spoken with) that feel a stock Bitstream was better then the modded one. I guess it hadn't broken in, regardless I fail to see how this relates to cables.

RuSsMaN

It doesn't, it just allows him to educate us and name drop yet ANOTHER time.

The future of the forum, you're looking at it.

Dennis Gardner

RuSsMaN wrote: »

It doesn't, it just allows him to educate us and name drop yet ANOTHER time.

The future of the forum, you're looking at it.

Just shoot me now............

WilliamM2

Randi made his name tricking well-intentioned scientists with his skills as a magician. He is not an ethical man.

Could you please let us know when he "tricked" scientists"? It would also be nice if you could substantiate your claim that he is not ethical.

still find it funny that he does not allow measurement equipment, it is almost like his challenge is meant to be ironic. On the one hand he derides audiophiles for the subjective improvements of cable, but on the other, he does not allow objective measurement of the differences between the cable.

Why would he allow measuring equipment? The challenge is to see if you can HEAR the difference. Randi knows, and has admitted that there ARE measurable differences. He does not think that they are audible, hence the challenge.

DarqueKnight

I spoke to Joe Grado at last week's audio pioneer seance. Next week I'll try to conjure up Arnie Nudell* and enlist his help in tracking down a mint Infinity IRS system.

[Ok...I know Nudell is still alive...but Infinity is dead, therefore he qualifies as an entity that we can "channel".;)]

Yashu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#Career_as_a_skeptic

Perhaps "scientists" was not the right word, maybe researchers, but read his whole wiki... quite interesting, and if you read it you will see that he is too smart to allow the million to be won because he already understands objectivity, which is exactly why his challenge makes no sense. He wants subjective proof? Can there be such a thing? His challenge is setup exactly like the ones that he has used his skills as a magician against. Why is this?

Edit: If it can be measured, it can be heard... period. The degree is varying, but you are not dealing with a digital computer. The ear is analog, the interpretation of sound is analog. This means that there are an infinite number of variations that the ear can register and the brain can interpret. The brain does not work on ones and zeros. If our equipment can measure something than it stands to reason that the eardrum itself is, at the very least, going to vibrate to reflect that. Certainly some things matter more than others, but as long as the air can carry the sound wave and affect the ear drum, you cannot say that something is 100% "inaudible" and put a period at the end of that sentence. It has already been proven that, while the direct perception of ultrasonic sound is not usually noticed, ultrasonics introduced into broad spectrum sound (20-20,000hz) DO have an audible effect. There are so many things that factor into the resulting wave that hits your eardrum that I would consider randi a complete fool for trying to distill it down to, well, ones and zeros (as in black and white). I think he resents the hifi industry, and I also think that he has been given money to plug monster cable, of all things. If price was really an issue then he would be comparing the Pearl cable to some standard Home-Depot type generic 12g wire. The choice of monster cable just seems... suspect.

PolkThug

Yashu wrote: »

Edit: If it can be measured, it can be heard... period.

I bet you couldn't distinguish a quarter of a decibel difference (and probably not half a db either) .

bluzrip

Mebbe we could bring Penn & Teller in to mediate the proceedings. :rolleyes:

WilliamM2

Perhaps "scientists" was not the right word, maybe researchers, but read his whole wiki...

I think your reading comprehension is beyond help.

Nice ramble, but I still fail to see why you would need to measure the difference, to hear the difference.

dorokusai

I only buy gear based on what other people say.

RuSsMaN

I just crammed a FULL pound of cheddar cheese in my ****. Will you listen to what I have to say?

reeltrouble1

Focking Alligators...........

somebody just let a nuke go......

RT1

Pauly

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I just crammed a FULL pound of cheddar cheese in my ****. Will you listen to what I have to say?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Music Joe

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I just crammed a FULL pound of cheddar cheese in my ****. Will you listen to what I have to say?

that's not gouda

madmax

treitz3 wrote: »

Curiosity makes me want to ask what changed? Temp./ humidity w/ ribbons, cat hair/dust on electrostat's, lower current supply from overloaded electrical system, door open/shut, other half's mouth running, AC on when it wasn't on before, open window, ambient background noises, drinking alcohol, tubes not warm gear not warmed up, moved furniture/plants, different genre of music or was it possibly your ears readjusting to and from conditions that were either low/loud prior to listening as compared to the day before.

???

Yes. Along with mood. Even so, if you hear differences given the same circumstances (heat, humidity, mood etc) then they are real. Maybe not acurate, but real.
madmax

LessisNevermore

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I just crammed a FULL pound of cheddar cheese in my ****.

Packer fan?:D

Sami

Yashu wrote: »

Edit: If it can be measured, it can be heard... period.

I'm sorry but you're overestimating the capabilities of the human ear. Jitter for example can be easily measured but there needs to be a lot of it before it becomes audible to human ear.

I have a 100kHz - 6GHz signal generator here, with 9kHz - 7GHz spectrum analyzer. Lets hook the sig.gen. up to an amp and see if you can pick up the signal when the spectrum analyzer does... $50 challenge?

madmax

This mumbo jumbo about equipment and measurements is just so old. There are thousands of applicable measurements to be made. Major manufacturers know that listing anything more than power and THD is a nightmare for them from the average consumer. Audiophiles can hear way more than what is measured because you would have to have a complete list of measurements which will always be incomplete. Nonsense all the way around. BTW, Sami, if your amplifier has a measurable response in the 100khz to 6 ghz range you have a very bad problem.
madmax

ka7niq

Sami wrote: »

I'm sorry but you're overestimating the capabilities of the human ear. Jitter for example can be easily measured but there needs to be a lot of it before it becomes audible to human ear.

I have a 100kHz - 6GHz signal generator here, with 9kHz - 7GHz spectrum analyzer. Lets hook the sig.gen. up to an amp and see if you can pick up the signal when the spectrum analyzer does... $50 challenge?

It is like Religion, you can not prove or disprove the existence of God.
Thus, many will CLAIM to hear differences in jitter/cables, etc.
So far, none have been able to demonstrate it under scientific conditions.
I WAS once "one of them" a dyed in the wool tweak, and THOUGHT I heard differences too.
I learned the hard way my mind played tricks on me.
Be gentle with them, many have not learned this lesson yet.:)

ka7niq

LuSh wrote: »

ka7niq/ABX whatever your name or handle is; you're the only person (with at least 20 I've spoken with) that feel a stock Bitstream was better then the modded one. I guess it hadn't broken in, regardless I fail to see how this relates to cables.

THAT was the excuse given to me, the BlackGates had not broken in yet.
I only kept it 6 months, and dumped it when I had the chance.
A real shame too, it sounded great on my 801's stock.
I planned on getting the remote control version, deal fell through.
Sorry to break in on the thread, but when I saw that you had a DAC I used to own, I wanted to get your opinion of it.
I am glad you are happy with yours, over and out.