Michael Fremer accepts Randi's Challenge
Comments
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John Holmes had a big cable. He plugged it in everywhere, and when he did, they could tell the difference."she had the body of Venus, with arms."
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If I was putting up $1M I'd want x-rays of both cables involved. I bet Michael Fremmer will back out anyway.
I've offered up free BBQ to anyone who can tell the difference in IC's at my house. I think it would be a cool sight to behold. Dual L/R outs on my source make it easy to switch back and forth quickly. -
I will have to agree to disagree with that madmax. For example, I picked up on a problem within the first minute of audio reproduction on a set of speaker's I had never heard on gear I had never heard in a LR that I had never been in at this year's Polkfest. Did the same thing at Carverfest. Do it all the time with my local cat's systems. Picking up subtle differences in strange settings, even when put on the spot is not that difficult either, at least it isn't for me.madmax wrote:You have to know a system before you can tell something changes
Post #89 was an excellent post. Some of you need to go back and re-read that one.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Kansas is a long way for a BBQ sandwich! But if it was delivered by 20 naked chicks that joined me in eating it in the hot tub, I'd be on my way in T-minus two minutes. Bags packed and all.PolkThug wrote:I've offered up free BBQ to anyone who can tell the difference in IC's at my house. I think it would be a cool sight to behold. Dual L/R outs on my source make it easy to switch back and forth quickly.
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Yeah, WHEN he could plug it in fully :eek:John Holmes had a big cable. He plugged it in everywhere, and when he did, they could tell the difference. -
Don't you guys up in NC use Vinegar on your BBQ ?Kansas is a long way for a BBQ sandwich! But if it was delivered by 20 naked chicks that joined me in eating it in the hot tub, I'd be on my way in T-minus two minutes. Bags packed and all. -
DK,
Again, in the case of the two examples that you used there have been numerous, repeatable, documented, and scientific tests FOR the ability for humans to tell unbeliveably subtle differences.
In cables, it has been the exact opposite. In every case when knowledge of the cables has been hidden from sight, other than Shack's, has shown that humans do not have that ability. If I am mistaken about this, please point me to the peer reviewed paper that demonstrates your claim and I will gladly concede the point.
T3:
I get down to NC on business quite often, I'd do this with you at your house, or elsewhere. I'll PM you when I drop down. As PT said, I just want to see this myself.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Hey Dark One ..... It's FRIDAY evening, going out.DarqueKnight wrote: »I enjoy reading scientific literature. Can you provide references to these exhaustive scientific tests?
NOT gonna respond to to your good natured Troll
At least right now, Google is shut down :eek:
Sheet .... Yahoo is acting up too :eek:
WTF am I gonna do
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OK, it would be my pleasure and I've got just the cables to do the test with.jdhdiggs wrote:.T3:
I get down to NC on business quite often, I'd do this with you at your house, or elsewhere. I'll PM you when I drop down. As PT said, I just want to see this myself.
When we are done, we can shoot up to my favorite high end shop in Charlotte and we can check out some of the other cables/ PC's they have. They have some excellent demo rooms and setups. That way, you can hear the changes in multiple settings with one of them being in a home environment.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
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NOT gonna respond to to your good natured Troll
I thought is was a very specific and fair question. All the cable non-believers are saying there is numerous proven scientifc evidence to back up their claims and I have yet to see any.
I mean even this statement is hyperbolejdhiggs wrote:I'm going to go ahead and through the BS flag on that one. 9 times out of 10 when this stuff comes up, it's those that hear that difference that go into the name calling and bashing of other people or their systems or just generally come off as arrogant ****.
More nonsense where's your proof. I could say 9 out of 10 people who don't hear a difference are wack jobs. Sorry raising the BS flag on you, fly it loud and proud"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Just as no one has ever demonstrated ESP under controlled conditions, no one has ever demonstrated they could hear differences in wire.
Therefore, if there is no empirical evidence for a phenomenon, the phenomenon does not exist. Is this your belief?They may claim to hear differences, but I can claim to be the reincarnation of John Holmes too. Proving it is the hard part .......
Again, it is not difficult for me to "prove" what I can hear. Whether someone else can hear what I hear is not pertinent to my musical enjoyment. I, and others on this forum (to my knowledge) have never claimed any special powers. We do lay claim to trained ears, which is reasonable. It is also reasonable for you to claim that you cannot hear a difference in audio cables. No one knows what you can hear except you.Another sign of Mental Illness, particular Bi Polar Disorder, is believing you have "special powers/abilities".
Perhaps some of you need to go back on the meds ?
JUST KIDDING
Another sign of Mental Illness, particularly Bi Polar Disorder, is having a pathological need for attention and acceptance from strangers or from those peripheral or inconsequential to your life. For example, you were banned in August of 2007 from the Audio Circles forum. This was just prior to joining the Polk forum in August of 2007. You then went complaining about the ban on (at least) two other forums: the Klipsch forum and the Audio Asylum forum. Here are some links:
Boo Hoo, I just got banned from AC-but no big deal-to Klipsch forum
Boo Hoo, I just got banned from AC-but no big deal-to Audio Asylum forum
Boo Hoo, here is why they banned me from AC-but no big deal-to Audio Asylum forum
You have proven somewhat reluctant to answer my technical questions. Perhaps a question in the realm of mental health will prompt a cogent and thoughtful response: If it really was "no big deal' for you to get banned from the Audio Circles forum, why run to two other forums asking if anyone else had had "trouble", and subsequent discussion?.
You apparently came close to being banned from Audio Asylum also:
Audio Asylum-Pssst Ka7niq
Audio Asylum-I am only defending myself
Audio Asylum-COOL IT!Perhaps some of you need to go back on the meds ?
JUST KIDDING
Passive/aggressive behavior, is typical of those with low self esteem and a pathological need for attention/acceptance. I'm not kidding.:)
Such good discourse.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Let me put a BIG dent in the "wishful hearing" aka placebo theory of cable differences.
About 8 years ago I decided to go back to basic 12 awg speaker wire, and relatively inexpensive IC's (like $24/pr type available at Radio Shack). I bought some 99 cents a foot 12 awg stuff at RS that looked pretty respectable, nice bright copper, heavy insulation, etc, etc. I popped those cables into my system---WANTING THEM TO "SUCCEED." No dice. No amount of placebo on the planet could convince me to keep those wires. They sounded like absolute **** next to my fairly modest Audioquest Granites.
This from a guy who has "substantial" hearing loss in his left ear. I'm no "golden ear" though my wife says I am, but I do have a very good sense for tonal accuracy and hearing distortions. Let me illustrate, I once listened to an NEC CD transport (I-SIG can confirm this) and I could hear the distortion of that transport---readily---easily. Once I described what it was I was hearing, then Wes (I-SIG) was able to pinpoint what I was talking about. I think he was pretty amazed, as he knows how bad my left ear is. When it comes to tones, I'm almost a "savant" type. Call me on the phone once, then don't call again for like 3 years, I'll know it is you immediately. I lock on to how things sound. I'm not trying to pump my own nads or anything, but it is true. Now ask me to hear anything above 11kHz---forget it--no can do; but hearing frequency ranges has nothing to do with tonal accuracy, pitch.
Something to chew on...
To add to that, anyone who thinks wire does nothing but pass on it's input, untouched, has never even taken a basic electricity course. Wire is an electrical component. It has bandwidth, impedance, resistance. Wire topolgies also can affect how wire performs---if they didn't, everything would be wired with good 'ol 18awg solid core copper right? These principles are not "voo-doo" or theory, they are globally accepted facts.
Climb out of that box (book/internet, whatever box you're in---you know, the land of wisdom and inexperience) and try different cables. Then share your opinion's, at least then they will have some credibility. If you come back here and say "Steve, you suck. I tried 9 different cables, I didn't hear a damn bit of difference." Cool, love you man--understand completetly, at least you gave it a go; I've got nothing but respect for you for testing the theory. My bet is, however, you're gonna be surprised at the result.
You know the world was flat until somebody set out to find the truth....
You all have a wonderful weekend, get the old lady drunk and do her---or vice-versa for you Polk gals, or if you're umm, well hell--you know whatta I mean. Have meaningless pig sex is what I'm saying, with whomever. It's my wifes birthday this weekend, so she'll be gettin some and I've got to go pick up her gift (shhhhh...digital camera, don't say nothin). Travel, have fun, listen to music. I'll expect to see all of you here on Monday at the crack of noon.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
If I am mistaken about this, please point me to the peer reviewed paper that demonstrates your claim and I will gladly concede the point.
You, and others are missing the point. There is nothing for you to "concede" because what Shack, and I, and others are saying is that just because someone cannot perceive a difference under a set of circumstances, does not mean there is no difference. This is not a point of contention for me. I hear what I hear and that is that. Whether someone else believes me when I say I hear what I hear does not diminish my listening pleasure.
I mean really, if you can't hear a difference in cables now, are you going to start hearing differences because 1 or 1,000,000 Ph.D. researchers have published peer reviewed articles stating that there are audible differences in cables? To each his own, but I require no such validation to enjoy music.
Bell Laboratories did a lot of research on stereo reproduction and acoustics during the 1950's. When I get some time, I will look through the archives to see if there were any studies done in the area of audible cable differences.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I mean really, if you can't hear a difference in cables now, are you going to start hearing differences because 1 or 1,000,000 Ph.D. researchers have published peer reviewed articles stating that there are audible differences in cables? To each his own, but I require no such validation to enjoy music.
The most incredibly intelligent thing said on this topic to date. +10.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
After that post, please do.I'll ask for listening tips in another thread since I will be visiting audio shops in Seattle in the near future.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I mean really, if you can't hear a difference in cables now, are you going to start hearing differences because 1 or 1,000,000 Ph.D. researchers have published peer reviewed articles stating that there are audible differences in cables? To each his own, but I require no such validation to enjoy music.
Again, you missed the point.
So it's ok for you to ask for papers but not the reverse? Interesting... I'll bet you can't find the paper, but you can find tons that show that what you are experiencing is purely psychological. Personally, I'd rather have the money in my wallet and an open mind.
As for why documented proof might help, here I'll help you guys with that once since you want to completely ignore this portion of the human experience as a whole:
I fully admit that I may not here differences because, unlike the "believers", I choose not to ignore the psychology of the human mind and understand how my preconcived notions could prevent me, and others, from hearing the differences. Hence why "proof" would be benificial to the doubters as well.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Good stuff DK.
Anyone else see a pattern here......08-09-2007, 1:44 PM 950196 in reply to 950189
ka7niq
Joined on 08-06-2002
Tampa Florida
Posts 187
Re: Problems At Audio Circles ? Anyone Else ?
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Like I said, I just went because I own a pair of older VMPS RM 40's.
VMPS owners are tweakers like Klipsch guys, sort of.
ALL of my 'sins' were in a PM discussion between what I THOUGHT was just an audiophile flaming me.
There was no way to identify the guy as a moderator.
I even asked him IF he was, and if not to 'get a life' ALL in a PM too.
Heck, I have basically told Roy Delgado off here and NOT got banned, LOL
Maybe that is why Klipsch commands respect, because they ALLOW other viewpoints.
You are right, I will not miss Audio Circles, and I do plan to write every manufacturer with a circle on there and Boycott them.
Maybe this unidentified moderator will get the message then ?
Amp- Moscode 600
Custom Tube Line Stage
B&W Matrix 801's
VMPS RM 40's
Von Schweikert VR 4 JR's
TEAC Digital amp
Oracle Turntable w/ Itok arm
Koetsu Onyx
JVC DVD CD Player w/ Lite Dac 72 Tube Dac
Audioquest GR 8
Vampire interconnects, etcPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Yes, he's a SIZE="1"][B][I]you fill in the blank here[/I][/B][/SIZE no matter where he is......
We need to all strive to be such a stand up gentleman, such as him.:rolleyes:~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Oh this is great stuff. Been playing victim since at least 2001, eh!?!Posted by ka7niq on August 27, 2001 at 16:39:11
In Reply to: Psst ka7niq..... posted by Rod M on August 27, 2001 at 15:23:46:
I am only standing up for myself, and I am only responding to people who have been rude to me.
There is obviously a click, and I am not part of it.
I have stepped on the toes of a few Reviewers, Dealers, and their friends.
I am new, just an Audiophile, havent been here long enough to make friends who will support me.
I respect people who respect me!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
To get back on track....
Is there anybody here against somebody publicly showing their ability to distinguish differences in speaker wires? I've never seen a video or a tv show of someone doing it and I think it would be neato. (I've heard differences with drastically different gauges, but I doubt I could do it two brands of the same gauge) -
Again, you missed the point.
Ok. If you say so.So it's ok for you to ask for papers but not the reverse?
Ummmm...I think if I had a problem with providing scientific support for what I hear, I would not have stated the following:DarqueKnight wrote: »Bell Laboratories did a lot of research on stereo reproduction and acoustics during the 1950's. When I get some time, I will look through the archives to see if there were any studies done in the area of audible cable differences.Interesting... I'll bet you can't find the paper, but you can find tons that show that what you are experiencing is purely psychological.
That is very objective and open minded of you.:rolleyes:Personally, I'd rather have the money in my wallet and an open mind.
Me too. Hence my comment:DarqueKnight wrote: »I really do not understand why this is such a point of contention. If a $39.99 cable sounds the same as a $3,999 cable to someone, I am happy for them. I wish I could be that way, then I would have more money to trick off on strippers.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Let me put a BIG dent in the "wishful hearing" aka placebo theory of cable differences.
About 8 years ago I decided to go back to basic 12 awg speaker wire, and relatively inexpensive IC's (like $24/pr type available at Radio Shack). I bought some 99 cents a foot 12 awg stuff at RS that looked pretty respectable, nice bright copper, heavy insulation, etc, etc. I popped those cables into my system---WANTING THEM TO "SUCCEED." No dice. No amount of placebo on the planet could convince me to keep those wires. They sounded like absolute **** next to my fairly modest Audioquest Granites.
How does this put a dent in the placebo theory? You bought cheap cables, you may have wanted them to work, but you still knew they were cheap cable.
That is a classic case of the placebo effect. -
I would have absolutely no problem doing it. That said, the naysayers would have a field day blabbing about how the test was flawed, and I didn't have 55 blindfolds and it wasn't under "controlled" circumstances, blah, blah, blah.To get back on track....
Is there anybody here against somebody publicly showing their ability to distinguish differences in speaker wires?
That said, I would have no problem doing it.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
***[Disclaimer: Please ignore this message if you are not a cable cultist or cable pervert.]***
I was able to track down some Audioquest DBS (Dielectric Bias System) cables at an agreeable price. Within the next month, I will be posting reviews on the following:
1.Audioquest Leopard Tonearm Cable with 72 volt DBS (1.2 meter).
2.Audioquest Volcano Speaker Cable with 72 volt DBS (8 foot pair).
Some literature is appended below for your reading pleasure.
Mmmmmm...nice juicy cables.:)
Some background research:
Audioholics.com article: Dielectric-Absorption-In-Cables-Debunked
Audioholics.com article: Top Ten Signs An Audio Cable Vendor Is Selling You Snake Oil
Good night.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Personally, I'd rather have the money in my wallet and an open mind.
Now THAT'S funny. :rolleyes: I don't recall seeing anything from you that even comes close to accepting the fact that some many hear a REAL difference.
I was a doubter and am cheap as hell. The ONLY reason I came to know is because I tried some loaner cables (the old cable swap by doro) and was absolutely shocked by what I heard. I had no vested interest in the outcome one way or the other. I wasn't out any money. I was perfectly content with my cheap patchcords and spooled 18G speaker wire and generic power cables. If anything I was predisposed to assume I WOULDN'T hear any difference. My ABX testing came about because I wanted to say cables are cables...don't blow your cash when it is not necessary.
I tried it, I heard it and I am satified that what I heard is real and that it makes a difference. It's good enough for me."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
How does this put a dent in the placebo theory? You bought cheap cables, you may have wanted them to work, but you still knew they were cheap cable.
That is a classic case of the placebo effect.
I own expensive cables, they sound great to me. However, I thought that moving up the ladder would give me more, so I bought new cables at 3 times the price. Man, I really wanted them to sound better, but you know what, they didn't. I returned them and stayed with my present cables.
So much for your placebo effect theory. :rolleyes:Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Again..blah, blah, blah...do what you will. It's your system right? I'll stick with what I've got......wait.....wait for it.....compliments of George Grand of the Jersy Grands....KAPICHE?
shoot, did I spell that right?Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
DarqueKnight, a good post and you also touched the subject that is present in Randi's challenge: snake oil merchants. Lets face it, audio world is full of them.
Being that the audio world is "full of them" (snake oil merchants); what percentage do you know for a fact are snake oil merchants? Where is your research data on this topic? -
Again..blah, blah, blah...do what you will. It's your system right? I'll stick with what I've got......wait.....wait for it.....compliments of George Grand of the Jersy Grands....KAPICHE?
shoot, did I spell that right?
Why I believe you did and a big +1
seems likes the insurgents are needing a bit of revival...........a little of Randi's medicine show to get their blood boiling.
RT1 -
If you truly KNOW that a cable A sounds better than cable B, you should be able to blindly identify these cables when you hear them in random order. Simple as that, and that's what this whole challenge sounds to be like, whether it's rigged or not.
Sorry flawed! Why? Why wouldn't a statement like, "I like the way cable B sounds over cable A" be an acceptable answer. Why would I have to identify it? I don't make a practice of learning the vintage and dirt of the cable made. I just know what I like and don't like and if cable B whatever the manufacturer, sounds better to me than cable A to me why would I have to prove it to you or anyone else?
This whole thing is so stupid. You guys crack me up. You are trying to tell me what I like, don't like, hear or don't hear. You can't hear a difference, fine, you don't believe there is a difference, fine, but don't try to tell any audiophile that your religion is better than ours. Stupid stuff man.
Listen to your wire hangers and be happy. I'll listen to my audiophile gear and be happy atleast until I hear something better. Case closed. BTW I think if Randi, who by the way is a snake oil champion, after all the guy made a living out of illusions, is doing anything more than trying to keep in the lime light and be honest here, I think Fremer will come out with flying colors.
This discussion has been closed.