Power Cords realy help!

johnADA

dorokusai wrote:

He doesn't have anything Robert, it's all talk.

John - If you want some interesting information, check out the white papers from www.mitcables.com When you get street cred, like Bruce Brisson, let me know. Remember, I'm not trying to convert anyone, as I don't really care either way.....its just an opinion.

A/V forums for the most part are all talk. If you look closely enough you can pick out usable information, but the percentage of such is very low.

You give me Bruce and MIT cables, so what. I can google search anything along the lines of these topics and find another Bruce as far as street cred that will oppose his whole series of white papers with his own.

Who hands out these so called credentials??
What are these credentials worth??
If I did get them does that change this whole debate?

There is a another forum out there based upon the premise of truth in audio/video. There editors/admins have written, help written and conduct some of these tests and they've blasted cabling across the board for snake oil remedies to lose your pocket of coin. They have these credentials also.

For every topic out there, there is no consensus to anything and I mean anything.
So , from any outsiders perspective, if the Audiophiles with credentials cannot agree, what is truth and whats not, whats real and whats not. What weight does anyone carry with the label as a Audiophile, someone with credentials over someone else who has neither label associated with them????

disneyjoe7

How come with only 54 post you're hell bent on anything? JohnADA just leave this forum I don't believe anyone will miss you. See Ya.

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

There is a another forum out there based upon the premise of truth in audio/video. There editors/admins have written, help written and conduct some of these tests and they've blasted cabling across the board for snake oil remedies to lose your pocket of coin.

Then if we here have as our premise un-truth then why do you bother coming here at all???

tonyb

Good question bro...I will be awaiting his reply with
a corona in hand,and a B.S. swatter in the other.

ben62670

He keeps going, and going, and going...

IanD

Yeah, I'll admit that I have a couple of "magic" cords in my system. Do they make a difference? To me , yes. To anyone else? Hell, I really don't care.
My gear, my ears, my money.
In the words of the lone Ranger-
"You two men go that way........the rest of you, follow me."

johnADA

hearingimpared wrote:

Then if we here have as our premise un-truth then why do you bother coming here at all???

Well the reason I eve came here at all was because I had purchased some Polk Audio speakers. What a better information source could there be out there for this.

I had been on every forum out there prior to picking and purchasing these speakers and saw what I saw.

I picked the site which is suppose to be dedicated to the pursuing the truth in Audio & Video for the example of inconsistency with the audiophile arena.

On that particular site which carries credentials in its upper management of that site, you have a vast amount of information posted about most all aspects of this culture. One particular thread I read, one editor/admin had completely gone against what the another editor/admin had written in their information area. It wasn't the first time, nor the first site. Actually every audio/video site does this same exact thing. Allows things outside there rules and regulations etc.

WHY??

Well for various reasons.
Monetary gains.
Self gratification.
Click-ism's and so on.

People read these forums just looking for information for whatever reasons. They end up poorly spending money based upon nothing but opinions that may or may not suit their tastes and so on.

If they read something like these posts and see how it really can be, maybe they take some good advice and not get involved and get a addiction that equals a bad crack habit once they do.

Outside of answers to simple questions like hookups, problem solving, anything not correlating to poor, better, best is about as much as you could believe as a truth to audio/video and you'll get for a answer. The rest, hob gob crap!!

Best speaker for you to purchase? Ones you like when you hear them, within your range of affordability. Forget the name crap, snobbery crap and associated things within that scope. This goes for all audio and video gear, ALL. The best is what YOU LIKE, not what someone else likes and pushes at you. Watch out for hoax's, they abound like no tomorrow.

People do hear things, but are they really there or is it because of the addiction.


We have 2 audiophile definitions.
One is the majority of all forums, why? Because of the crack like addiction.

Audiophile, elitist who touts golden ears about in gross snobbery. Better known as a Audiopile. Gone through hoards of equipment via upgrading, looking for perfect.

Audiophile in its purest and most basic form: one who is enthusiastic about high fidelity sound reproduction. He enjoys his music and doesn't spend a lot of time on forums, because he is enjoying his gear he bought years ago and is still up and running. Does not replace gear unless its actually broken.

dorokusai

I don't think John needs to leave at all, just relax, and perhaps it would lower his blood pressure....maybe.

Perhaps its some personal crusade to fight audio injustice, but I believe that the members here have brains and can make their own decisions about these things. It might be different if we were talking about expensive stuff here....as the DIY Audio Asylum power cord can be made for $30.

It doesn't matter how its marketed, how its written or how its made....only in how it sounds. You just can't argue that, at all.

Happy Listening!

hearingimpared

johnADA wrote:

Well the reason I eve came here at all was because I had purchased some Polk Audio speakers. What a better information source could there be out there for this.

NONE

johnADA wrote:

I had been on every forum out there prior to picking and purchasing these speakers and saw what I saw.

I picked the site which is suppose to be dedicated to the pursuing the truth in Audio & Video for the example of inconsistency with the audiophile arena.

On that particular site which carries credentials in its upper management of that site, you have a vast amount of information posted about most all aspects of this culture. One particular thread I read, one editor/admin had completely gone against what the another editor/admin had written in their information area. It wasn't the first time, nor the first site. Actually every audio/video site does this same exact thing. Allows things outside there rules and regulations etc.

WHY??

Well for various reasons.
Monetary gains.
Self gratification.
Click-ism's and so on.

People read these forums just looking for information for whatever reasons. They end up poorly spending money based upon nothing but opinions that may or may not suit their tastes and so on.

If they read something like these posts and see how it really can be, maybe they take some good advice and not get involved and get a addiction that equals a bad crack habit once they do.

Outside of answers to simple questions like hookups, problem solving, anything not correlating to poor, better, best is about as much as you could believe as a truth to audio/video and you'll get for a answer. The rest, hob gob crap!!

Best speaker for you to purchase? Ones you like when you hear them, within your range of affordability. Forget the name crap, snobbery crap and associated things within that scope. This goes for all audio and video gear, ALL. The best is what YOU LIKE, not what someone else likes and pushes at you. Watch out for hoax's, they abound like no tomorrow.

People do hear things, but are they really there or is it because of the addiction.


We have 2 audiophile definitions.
One is the majority of all forums, why? Because of the crack like addiction.

Audiophile, elitist who touts golden ears about in gross snobbery. Better known as a Audiopile. Gone through hoards of equipment via upgrading, looking for perfect.

Audiophile in its purest and most basic form: one who is enthusiastic about high fidelity sound reproduction. He enjoys his music and doesn't spend a lot of time on forums, because he is enjoying his gear he bought years ago and is still up and running. Does not replace gear unless its actually broken.

Okay John you've made it clear what you think an audio/video forum should be. You've made it clear how you feel about "audiophile elitists." You've made it clear that you think you can tell people what they should do after they buy their equipment. You've made it clear that anything other than that is an addiction similar to a crack addiction ((although a heroin addiction is much worse (if you'd like I can debate that with ya)).

All that being said I really think you should start you own forum and dump this one as well as all the other forums of un-truth.

C'mon man this is a fun hobby, part of it is working on getting your dream system together and enjoying it however you like to do it. I love tweaking, that is part of my audio "addiction." I would never recommend to another audiophile something I didn't experience myself. If I have an opinion on something I say so, if it is experience I say so. . .

You seem to want people to believe as you do or else prove them wrong. . . get over yourself man. . .and just enjoy the hobby and listening to music, after all isn't this what it is all about.

PS: You will not find a better forum than this one the net. . .if you do then stay there and have fun but for God's sake stop trying to save us from ourselves.

DarqueKnight

One of the basic mantras of the cable difference naysayers is "If there are differences in cables that cause them to sound different, why can't these differences be measured?"

This shows more than a bit of ignorance because the truth is that all the performance parameters that contribute to the sonic differences in cables can definitely be measured...if you have a laboratory with equipment that can measure phenomena at the atomic and sub-atomic level.

Most people fail to consider that an electronic signal, and its associated electromagnetic fields, intereacts with the conducting medium on the atomic and sub-atomic levels.

Sometimes the analogy of water flowing through a pipe is used to illustrate how electric current flows through a conductor. This is not an entirely accurate analogy. Water flowing through a hollow conducting medium (pipe) does not interact to a large degree with the conducting medium itself. It is a simple matter of one type of material flowing through a void in another type of material.

Conversely, an electric current, which is both matter and energy, flows through a solid medium. The way that an electric current interacts with the atomic structure of the conducting medium determines the quantity and quality of the signal that flows through the medium. Obviously, "gross" or "aggregate" type data like current, voltage, and capacitance can be measured with common electronic measurement tools. However if you really want to thoroughly describe the effects on an electric signal as it impinges on different types of conducting materials (cables), you would need to look at things like current density and field strength density. Most, and perhaps even all, cable manufacturers do not have the time, equipment, and highly trained, highly paid personnel that are required for making these types of rigorous measurements.

I think it is wonderful that some (most) people cannot perceive differences in the sound of electonic components and conductors. Sometimes I envy them. But then, when I turn the lights down low, put on one of my favorite discs, and get magically transported to another time and dimension by the music, I pity them because they don't know what joy they are missing in the sound of well-recorded music being faithfully reproduced.

I don't doubt for one nano-second that the naysaysers are truthful when they say there hear no differences in the sound of cables, amps, and source components. However, I feel that it impugns the integrity of the reviewer when he/she says that because they perceived no differences, there were absolutely no differences. I mean, just because I can't tell a difference between two different glasses of wine doesn't mean a difference isn't there. A true wine connosieur (might) could taste both wines and tell you the maker, vintage, and perhaps even the day of the week the grapes were pressed.

I rest.

hearingimpared

Sigh of relief, the big guns are in!!!

snow

hearingimpared wrote:

NONE



Okay John you've made it clear what you think an audio/video forum should be. You've made it clear how you feel about "audiophile elitists." .

C'mon man this is a fun hobby, part of it is working on getting your dream system together and enjoying it however you like to do it. I love tweaking, that is part of my audio "addiction." I would never recommend to another audiophile something I didn't experience myself. If I have an opinion on something I say so, if it is experience I say so. . .

You seem to want people to believe as you do or else prove them wrong. . . get over yourself man. . .and just enjoy the hobby and listening to music, after all isn't this what it is all about.

PS: You will not find a better forum than this one the net. . .if you do then stay there and have fun but for God's sake stop trying to save us from ourselves.

Great post joe. I also agree this is a great forum. As far audio eletists go, I really doubt there is very many of them here. For a couple reasons, one is that the majority of us make x amount of dollars per year ranging from on average $50.000.00 to $150.000.00 some more, some less im sure. We also have wifes, kids, housepayments etc. Most of us even if we wanted to couldndt afford to be in the eltists category. I buy what i can afford to when i have my bills paid. If there is extra play money i set this aside for my hobby until I have enough to purchase the next component. Its all about having fun learning a little and when i turn my system on I really enjoy myself.
Its not about keeping up with anyone, I will never be able to afford some of the things that some people have and I am ok with that. I remember reading a post that Joe made about how he had been away from audio for a while, and then had moved and bought a pair of sda srs 1.2tls and a couple of amps and a few other components to make a system and how he felt when he first played a cd and put on a lp. He was so happy. I actually could relate to everything he said. It practically brought a tear to my eye. (That is what its all about.) I try to only post about things that i have a personal knowledge of. When people ask about certain products, I try not comment on those unless i have used that product. That is why i have such a hard time with people posting oppinions about something they have never tried. And have no desire to try. I am not saying that this magic cord that people talk about will make an audible diffrence to me or not. The fact is I dont know. I havent tried it. And until I do I am not going to write it off as hocus pocus. If you havent noticed these people posting about this, and other cords arent selling them. There is no finacial gain for them to do so. If you want to beat someone up with words try writing nasty grams to the sellers of these cords if it makes you happy. We as audiophiles are not the enemy. REGARDS SNOW

dragon1952

johnADA wrote:

People read these forums just looking for information for whatever reasons. They end up poorly spending money based upon nothing but opinions that may or may not suit their tastes and so on.

If they read something like these posts and see how it really can be, maybe they take some good advice and not get involved and get a addiction that equals a bad crack habit once they do.

Oh wonderful another Lone Ranger...or maybe Dudley Do-Right? :rolleyes:

dragon1952

Wanna by a power cord little boy? Nya-ah-ah!

johnADA

Who ever said including myself, that I never tried anything?
Am I bitter, partly so,confused, disgusted and so fourth, most definitely yes.

I started out 2 years ago with absolutely no equipment. I had the best money could buy 30 years ago, within the range I allowed. Having kids and so fourth took away time, money and so fourth from a hobby I began to miss and the lids poked, prodded and killed everything I owned.

Now they are grown up, money is freed, but I've been out of the game so long I dont know whats, what, anymore and begin the cruise these forums.

I started out with just a simple flea bay surround setup until I had the information I needed and began to shop around with a final game plan in place.

So ask around about receivers and what do you get. Oh, buy this one, no this one, no that one, no seperates and so on. I said come people and amp is and amp, its job it to amplify the sound given to it right? Well here we go, hoards of opinions, but between it all, if you look, you can see a partial answer. No 1 KHZ crap, power useage in amp numbers, not watts along with other stuff which is more cosmetic of a nature.
Speakers , same exact crap.
DVD players
TV's, hell you guys got a war just as bad as this between LCD and Plasma's going on right now.
All audio/video equipment for a matter of fact.
Nobody posting the information you need to make a desicions directly, its there, partially hidden, but the rest is snobbery, egotistical in nature.

So I pick out everything I want and purchase and funds come together. Saving here and there just to get thing going I used the connects etc from the cheapo home all in one system. Once I get all the new gear up and running, we begin to make the final finished tweaks.

First one was losing the 22 gauge, 35 foot speaker runs for 14 gauge speaker wire made by X. I quintupled or more the power the all in one had. Difference between running the new speaker cord. Nope, peace of mind was all to be found. I tried very hard to talk myself into at least something, but in the end, nope!!

Next up, interconnects.

RG6U versus RG-59, Well, WOW. Kids said wow, mom said wow, the picture was noticably better.
Played between optical and digital connects from CD player and DVD player.
Subtle at best between the 2 types, between cheap cables , affordable, expensive, going to Mono priced ones a subtle difference to somewhat decent difference. Between mono's and B brand godly's, nada, good thing flea bay sometimes get you more than you paid for stuff.
Actually ended up with the CD player at analog. Those DAC's within that player sounded much better than the ones in my receiver. But still stayed with mono price.
Went into the rebuild of the polks. Even though they had the best neutral based sound of any pre-builts I found, they missed something I had longed for, great sound.
So along the build, I get what I posted earlier, a way to measure things. Once with that in hand, lessons I learned with interconnects, I purchased a highly regarded, majority backed power cable. NADA, out $250 bucks, but NADA, good thing for flea bay once again, got $275 for that $250 cable.

Be careful people is my recommendation.

OK, that outta the way, lets see how you'll destroy all this.

It was asked a few times, so here goes.

Onkyo Integra 7.5 Receiver-Stole it from flea bay
AMC CD8B CD Player- Guy listed it wrong, stole it from flea bay
Oppo 971H DVD Player-New
Syntax Kolin 3712 LCD TV, ISF calibrated- New

Polk R-30's, er once were, now housing 2- 6 1/2 Dayton Classic midwoofs and one 1 inch Vifa silk dome. Simple 2nd order Butterworth, Zobel network, series padded tweeter.

Polk R-25I, er once were, now housing a single Dayton Reference 5 inch and a Dayton 1 1/8 Silk Dome. Simple 2nd order as above, wanted the rears just a tad brighter than the fronts.

No center, phatom until the new room is done and the fronts are placed out 8 foot or more, under that a center is highly debatable.

10 inch Dayton Reference subwoofer in a homemade cabinet using a Rythmik Audio 250 watt, 6 db boost @ 30hz, plate amp.

Oh, thats the problem, I can hear it now!!

bikezappa

DarqueKnight wrote:

One of the basic mantras of the cable difference naysayers is "If there are differences in cables that cause them to sound different, why can't these differences be measured?"

DarqueKnight I have enjoyed your posts in the past and present. However measurement is not the issue, as least not for me. The issue is to prove to me and other buyers that you or anyone else CAN hear the differnce between power cables. This would require a double blind test. I know some people don't believe in double blind testing but I wish them well in a world without these tests because medicine and engineering have successfully used them for many years.

I say mustard on my power cords improves the sound. You should think I'm nuts and full of BS. That would be commen sense. You would be correct. However, if I pass the double blind test with and with out mustard then something is changing the sound that relates to mustard on the cables. That's interesting to me and this information may be useful for designing cables and other stuff.

Just prove, not measure, that you can hear the difference.

bikezappa

dorokusai wrote:

I don't think John needs to leave at all, just relax, and perhaps it would lower his blood pressure....maybe.

Perhaps its some personal crusade to fight audio injustice, but I believe that the members here have brains and can make their own decisions about these things. It might be different if we were talking about expensive stuff here....as the DIY Audio Asylum power cord can be made for $30.

It doesn't matter how its marketed, how its written or how its made....only in how it sounds. You just can't argue that, at all.

Happy Listening!

What a reasonable post doro!

Thanks

bikezappa

hearingimpared wrote:

Sigh of relief, the big guns are in!!!

10 posts per day on average.

WOW

When do you get time to listen to music?

heiney9

johnADA wrote:

Who ever said including myself, that I never tried anything?
Am I bitter, partly so,confused, disgusted and so fourth, most definitely yes.

I started out 2 years ago with absolutely no equipment. I had the best money could buy 30 years ago, within the range I allowed. Having kids and so fourth took away time, money and so fourth from a hobby I began to miss and the lids poked, prodded and killed everything I owned.

Now they are grown up, money is freed, but I've been out of the game so long I dont know whats, what, anymore and begin the cruise these forums.

Sorry to hear you had to leave the hobby.

This and other forums are to be used as a guide and yes, there is a lot of info, good and bad. The only way to jump back on the horse and find what you're looking for it to start experimenting again. There is no magical short path to audio nirvana. YOU have to decide how far you want to go in this hobby and then start on your path all over again. COnsumers have about 100 times more products and services available to them than they did 30 years ago. It muddies the water a lot. Try asking someone what the best Auto is, chances are you'll be just as frustrated as you are trying to put together your system.

Experience counts for a lot in this hobby, and I'm talking about personal experience. There is no way around it. Use us and othe sites, reviews, articles, opinions, experiences as a guide. Nothing we say is written in stone nor does it work for everyone and every system. There is no way around this if you are serious about getting what ever it is you are looking for out of your audio/video system.


P.s. Cables make a difference.........in my system

H9

PolkThug

bikezappa wrote:

This would require a double blind test. I know some people don't believe in double blind testing but I wish them well in a world without these tests because medicine and engineering have successfully used them for many years.

Sounds logical.

Here's the illogical:

"I can hear a difference in power cables. I couldn't hear a difference in a double-blind test, therefore I conclude that the test is invalid."

bikezappa

PolkThug wrote:

Sounds logical.

Here's the illogical:

"I can hear a difference in power cables. I couldn't hear a difference in a double-blind test, therefore I conclude that the test is invalid."

The double blind test may be invalid. But from what i hear went people talk about cables it that there is a big clear difference.

PolkThug if they gave 2 groups of people a drug to test if it can cure XYZ. One group gets the a sugar pill the other group gets the drug. No diffence in cure rate. Is the drug test invalid? Would you want to take that drug if you had XYZ? Or would you want to take a drug that had a higher cure rate than the sugar pill?

It's just a matter of where we want to spend our money. On power cables or new Music or different speakers.

If you are hearing a difference in music maybe it's not power cables but something else.

reeltrouble1

DarqueKnight wrote:

I think it is wonderful that some (most) people cannot perceive differences in the sound of electonic components and conductors. Sometimes I envy them. But then, when I turn the lights down low, put on one of my favorite discs, and get magically transported to another time and dimension by the music, I pity them because they don't know what joy they are missing in the sound of well-recorded music being faithfully reproduced.

This is a gem. Speaks volumes on the I hear/I do not hear.

We know that people "learn" differently based upon the ability of their brain functions. Some of the ways to learn are obvious, such as visual learning, rote memory function, analytical order process and sensory information, it has also been determined there is another way to learn defined as "a musical learner" most evident in people who can listen to a song as few as a single time or even 1/2 of a time and then play it on some instrument. These people are keenly aware of pitch, tone, intonation, syncopation, rythym and muscial time. Of course, this learning ability as well as all others vary between individual's.

However, one need not play any musical instrument to be able to learn musically, and this ability does not necessarily deter other brain function learning abilities. Through this ability sound is quickly determined as being different or "sounds better", how?, most do not care, to most it does not matter, but some do.

I have no doubt of certain placebo, this topic is to vast for here, I would suggest Martin Luther's writing on the difference between actuality and reality as a starting point.

Raife--Yes indeed, like all genius a curse and a blessing. How wonderful to be human.

John--I asked about the propogation of velocity, its just a little thing in the big picture of a system. You did not respond. Your last post was a bit better should you actually want to integrate into the community here.

Zap--An analogy if you will, you posted pics of women in the babe thread you found appealing. Others did not and gave you a hard time....why?? same image, identical, no difference, same thing.........different human response though, not exactly the same, but you get my drift.

RT1 will now return to his jovial cutting up self.

You hear me you Anti Hi-Fi Audio Insurgents!!!!!

RT1--unwashed, unshaven, unclean, wire-buying, component-loving Audio Infidel.

Listen to the Music.

Someone here quoted Count Basie, "if it sounds good, it is good"

I am sticking with Count.

RT1

zombie boy 2000

Good point bike... and one to which I would willingly concede. If the placebo effect is responsible for my altered perceptions, then where does it benefit me to squabble over the means to this end?

Perception is reality and the whole nine yards....

PolkThug

bikezappa wrote:

PolkThug if they gave 2 groups of people a drug to test if it can cure XYZ. One group gets the a sugar pill the other group gets the drug. No diffence in cure rate. Is the drug test invalid? Would you want to take that drug if you had XYZ? Or would you want to take a drug that had a higher cure rate than the sugar pill?

The pill example above is not a parallel. In the pill example each person can only be cured or not cured one out of one times. In a cable test, each individual person would get many tries.

zombie boy 2000

Big Ted.... threw out his line and reeled them in with a single post. Very efficient and very well-said.

bikezappa

Zap--An analogy if you will, you posted pics of women in the babe thread you found appealing. Others did not and gave you a hard time....why?? same image, identical, no difference, same thing.........different human response though, not exactly the same, but you get my drift.

That was a poor attempt at humor. After looking at basically the same type of women 100 times I thought the group could get a laugh.

I haven't posted there any more.

I just want some evidence that people can hear differnces in a double blind tests with power cords, because I hate to put mustard on my power cords.

bikezappa

PolkThug wrote:

The pill example above is not a parallel. In the pill example each person can only be cured or not cured one out of one times. In a cable test, each individual person would get many tries.

Correct that's why they would need to test 100' or 1,000s people with the single pill test. For power cords I only really need one or two people taking many tests to determine if there is a effect.

You can do double blind tests to determine if the resistor is within spec or if the material will support the weight or if changing the volume level can be detected.

reeltrouble1

I fear you missed my point, not going for humor, understand I do a lot but not here....yes, same general type of photo as all the others, scantily clad women, ones you liked, yet different response from a different person looking at an identical image, did not mean to tear a scar off a wound, however, apparent I did. Please disregard if you can.

RT1

tonyb

This whole thread is..Blah....Blah....Blah...
If it sounds good to YOU then it's money well vested.
End of story........

PolkThug

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I fear you missed my point, not going for humor, understand I do a lot but not here....yes, same general type of photo as all the others, scantily clad women, ones you liked, yet different response from a different person looking at an identical image, did not mean to tear a scar off a wound, however, apparent I did. Please disregard if you can.

RT1

What's your point? That people are subjective? I don't think anyone will argue with you about that.