Streaming....better than physical? I think so...

marvda1

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

Well-cared-for CDs can last many decades — even centuries. But storing a disc in a hot car or playing it often can eventually lead to "CD rot." "By increasing the relative humidity and temperature, you're increasing the rate of chemical reaction occurring,"

That being said, I still have my first cd purchased whe the cd player came out, and it is in perfect shape.

Emlyn

Same here. Never seen a CD rot since I started buying them in the mid-1980s. In the early days I did see some friends trash theirs by thinking the CDs were indestructible so scratched them up. I know because I helped repair some for them with car polish so they would at least play.

I have had a batch of Blu Rays go bronze and become unplayable within a few months of purchase but those were a manufacturing defect and replaced without charge.

Anyway, I have all my CDs ripped to WAV files and backed up and most of the CDs are safely stored away.

pitdogg2

marvda1 wrote: »

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

Well-cared-for CDs can last many decades — even centuries. But storing a disc in a hot car or playing it often can eventually lead to "CD rot." "By increasing the relative humidity and temperature, you're increasing the rate of chemical reaction occurring,"

That being said, I still have my first cd purchased whe the cd player came out, and it is in perfect shape.

You and I both.

I got onboard shortly after they came out. I will say I have had some that something DID happen to. My problem CD's never left the house and for the most part were in a stable enviroment. For whatever reason I did have 2-3 that delaminated enough to no longer work. You could see it start at the center spindle hole. a little air bubble would open up and grow larger into the playing surface. I never considered it any sort of "rot", something more like not enough or bad adhesive or lack of heat to bond.

marvda1

The article I read said in the early days (up to three years after they first came out) the cds were made with inferior materials that caused some problems.

billbillw

marvda1 wrote: »

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

Well-cared-for CDs can last many decades — even centuries. But storing a disc in a hot car or playing it often can eventually lead to "CD rot." "By increasing the relative humidity and temperature, you're increasing the rate of chemical reaction occurring,"

That being said, I still have my first cd purchased whe the cd player came out, and it is in perfect shape.

I agree mostly, but I have many CD-R that have gone bad. I've also had DVDs go bad. I had to throw out my DVD of the movie 300 a few months back because it wouldn't read. It was all cloudy. Its probably unlikely that they will all go bad at once, but it is that random one that goes bad that is frustrating.

jdjohn

DarqueKnight wrote:

CDPs are inherently noisy. Any spinning, vibrating mechanical device is inherently noisy. Furthermore, mechanical vibration can induce electrical noise in circuits.

We've all heard the whirring noise that CD players make as they come up to speed. There's no reason to think that noise disappears once a player is operating. It becomes a very high-pitched noise that we might not easily hear, but it does not go away, and may actually get into the audio signal itself.

DarqueKnight wrote:

Turntable systems are fraught with noise sources. That is why the uber high end turntables weigh 10 tons. Even with no snap, crackle and pop, a new stylus sliding in clean grooves produces some noise due to friction. Some vinylphiles go so far as to further isolate their turntables from the vibrations produced by the loudspeakers by putting the turntable in a separate room. I was pleasantly surprised by the increase in clarity and detail achieved by converting my records to DSD64 digital files. My turntable rig didn't weigh 10 tons, but it, and it's associated Pass Labs phono pre, weren't slouches either.

Turntables definitely have inherent noise. Besides the vinyl surface noise, the spindle bearing and the motor can introduce noise. Most high-end turntables isolate the motor by having it separated from the chassis.

Vinyl surface noise from friction can be reduced by having a quat included in a record cleaning solution. It will leave a molecular layer of lubrication on the vinyl. A quat also helps reduce static, and is an anti-fungal.

DarqueKnight

marvda1 wrote: »

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

When I was transferring my CDs and SACDs to digital files, all discs played perfectly. I have CDs that date back to their commercial introduction in 1982.

When I was transferring my Blu-rays and DVDs to digital files in 2017, four of my Blu-ray discs and three of my DVD discs would not play. Lions Gate (one title, 2007), Disney (one title, 2013), and 20th Century Fox (two titles, 2006 and 2008) agreed to replace the defective Blu-rays if I shipped them back. I bought Blu-ray versions of the defective DVDs.

bcwsrt

marvda1 wrote: »

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

…

That being said, I still have my first cd purchased whe the cd player came out, and it is in perfect shape.

First CD, purchased September 20, 1985. No rot, same as all the others I have bought since. Sounds as good as ever.

heiney9

My first purchase was in or around 1985. In a long box - Led Zeppelin Houses of the Holy, manufactured by WEA in Germany. $22 plus tax. I bought cd's before I actually had a player. A) because I worked at an audio store so I could play them while I sold audio. B ) I'd have something to play when I got my player off lay-away at the audio store I worked at. I was one year out of HS, so funds were tight.....lol.

As far as I know it still plays fine.

H9

tophatjohnny

marvda1 wrote: »

People have been saying disc rot since the cd came out.. I have yet to have a cd rot.

Well-cared-for CDs can last many decades — even centuries. But storing a disc in a hot car or playing it often can eventually lead to "CD rot." "By increasing the relative humidity and temperature, you're increasing the rate of chemical reaction occurring,"

That being said, I still have my first cd purchased whe the cd player came out, and it is in perfect shape.

I’ve heard some rotten CDs in my time 😂

marvda1

i know it's hard to tell on youtube but i just ran across this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUt3UjBRF7U

treitz3

That's a good example and over a pair of bookies too. It's even more noticeable on a full range system, as you are adding the full range of benefits to the soundscape.

Tom

VR3

If you listen near field at low volumes then alot of this would not matter.

The farther away you sit and the louder the volume.. The more obvious things become

Emlyn

I see the comparison video above as more an example of the sound quality of a separate network streaming device and a CD player. The sound differences are pretty apparent, but the Denon is known to be a fairly bright sounding CD player and the custom DAC they made sounds pretty warm and thick. It's really a comparison of two pieces of equipment. My ears prefer the streaming DAC.

A comparison of streaming vs CD formats alone would be done through a CD player that is also a network streamer, like a Marantz SACD 30n. I don't think Denon makes a network streaming CD player yet but a Denon CD player would sound different from a Marantz CD player because they're designed to sound different.

treitz3

Emlyn wrote: »

A comparison of streaming vs CD formats alone would be done through a CD player that is also a network streamer, like a Marantz SACD 30n. I don't think Denon makes a network streaming CD player yet but a Denon CD player would sound different from a Marantz CD player because they're designed to sound different.

Here's one issue though, Emlyn. When you slap a CDP and a streamer into one box, you introduce all of the noise from that box into the signal of both sources. This defeats the whole thing with streaming and being able to eliminate the noise(s) that ravage that portion of the system.

I really don't know how one could "accurately" and fairly test this, honestly.

What I was trying to relay in my OP was that my CDP, which isn't a slouch, compared to my streaming rig? Well, there really is no comparison. At least at this point in time. There is far, far less noise in my streaming rig than that of the CDP.

This may change when I address the things I have within the streaming portion of the rig to the CDP but I honestly don't know how much noise would be dropped. Marvin's video example above does a pretty decent job of showing the differences of what I hear between my CDP and my streaming rig. Of course, it's not the exact sound(s) that I hear, along with the differences but it sums up pretty well what the differences I am describing (or trying my best to describe) are.

Tom

DarqueKnight

Emlyn wrote: »

A comparison of streaming vs CD formats alone would be done through a CD player that is also a network streamer, like a Marantz SACD 30n. I don't think Denon makes a network streaming CD player yet but a Denon CD player would sound different from a Marantz CD player because they're designed to sound different.

I compared the sound of my FLAC CD rips to "CD Quality" FLAC files streamed from Tidal and Qobuz, all played through a Bryston BDP-3 digital music player. My CD rips of the same song sounded better than the streamed versions. Qobuz sounded better than Tidal.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/197298/how-qobuz-and-tidal-sound-to-me

treitz3

Damn.

Please allow me to digress on this stance. I have learned otherwise. I will admit when I am incorrect.....and in this case, at this point in time? I was incorrect.

That said, experience is one of the things in this hobby that is awesome.

I have flip-flopped on this stance.

Gear changes (many) have dictated this change in stance. Both formats are awesome. Both formats can be stellar. At this point? I have honestly and without question changed my observation/stance.

Tom

skipshot12

Tom,
Question on less noise streaming vs cd…..
What type of noise did you find to be less of?

Could it be compared to noise from lp’s vs cd’s type of noise?

Skip

Still a newbie when it comes to streaming I are.

treitz3

It's hard to describe. It has to do with EMI/RFI, jitter and digital hash, current leakage and crosstalk. Audible garbage riding the signal, so to speak.

I learned to address it when I was bulding/designing the streaming rig but was unable to address it in the Marantz because I could not utilize a clock. I could only add power conditioning, isolation and a DAC to improve the signal.

This noise I speak of is readily and easily heard when it is gone (because of what happens with the sound) but I find it extremely hard to describe what it actually sounds like.

Tom

skipshot12

Thank you.

rainbow1919

For me it's worth it. I may listen to a lot of the same bands, but when they have a lot albums. That gets to be a lot of money in CDs. I also don't have to worry about storage for the songs/albums. I just have my phone and it works great.

treitz3

Understood. It's all about what is the best scenario to suit your needs. I happen to have a vast collections of physical media (digital and vinyl), along with plenty of storage.

I like the convenience of streaming but I pelrefer the sound of physical....now that I have addressed that pert of the playback again.

It's nice to have differing sources of music ar your fingertips.

Tom

tophatjohnny

I prefer the sound of digital but not all digital is the same so take it all with a grain of whatever flips your lid and enjoy! To house my music library in physical media I would need a good sized extension added on to my home! I couldn’t imagine looking through over 80k albums so not only do my personal files sound much better to my ears than any physical formats do, the the convenience factor adds the word priceless to the process! It’s all personal as long as you’re listening and enjoying what you’re hearing. Amen.!

treitz3

So, some time has passed and gear has changed hands. The Marantz Reference SA-7S1 has officially been retired.

Tonight, I finally heard a dedicated transport, master clock and DAC with physical music.

This audio journey has been so much fun. I love streaming but after hearing this combo? There are things that are different but both can be SO enjoyable.

Differing presentations, differing volume levels (at the same spot on the Canary pre) but the end result with noise gone is so, very enjoyable. The better the recording, the better the experience but also, the better the gear? The better the bad sounding recordings sound decent.

While it took a MAJOR leap to up the quality of physical music to be back on par with streaming? It was worth it....at least IMO and in my current experience.

The Esoteric transport had me wondering if I had made the right decision, as it had a sonic signature...while cool? The cool factor didn't last that long. Add in a tube swap, PC, cable and Master Clock swap along with it?

Oh, man. All of a sudden? This is sounding oh, so sweet. More to come but I will say this....

I was very confident when I made the OP. As time has marched on? I may have changed my stance. Yes, it took as much effort as the streaming rig did but the end result as to what hits your ears was worth every part of said effort.

Tom

treitz3

treitz3 wrote: »

Oh, I have way too much physical music to get rid of the CDP or vinyl. Many of which are not available on streaming. I enjoy each playback for what they have to offer and will be doing the same. Upping my vinyl and digital setups.

I'm thinking for the CDP, either losing the Marantz and step up to something better (maybe just a transport) or maybe getting a master or word clock, DAC and going balls to the wall to improve it, like I did with the streaming setup.

Time has passed. Things have moved on. I have been listening to physical music after the upgrades and now, the differentiation between streaming and physical have gotten so small, that both are equally enjoyable.

This hobby is not cheap but now two of my sources are just as equally enjoyable as the other (on the digital realm). Please allow me to get the system warmed up and re-acclimated to itself and I will attempt to describe the differences between physical and streaming again, given my current setup.

I do know this.....time to seriously work on the vinyl aspect of the rig! Other than tweaking? I'm finally done on the digital front(s).

Tom

tophatjohnny

I can hardly wait 😂 it’s all in what you enjoy listening to! Don’t get caught up on what’s better and even more so others opinion because that’s just what it is! I served hundreds of people small to huge digital libraries on both external hard drives as well as NAS units and hear back from so many of the people I’ve served with their opinions and experiences listening to both my files and that of physical media! More often than not they prefer the digital experience but they comment about having a cd or vinyl record just feels more natural to them ! Oh and then you think that gear plays a roll in the ear??(of course it does) C’mon! Just do you and enjoy your listening experience no matter what gear you may or may not have! It’s all good! So much music and so little time! And where would I store over 80 k albums or CDs anyway! I’d look like some kind of hoarder wouldn’t I😂

billbillw

At this point with technology, I don't see any reason to keep holding onto a physical playback setup, if we are talking about digital media like CDs/DVD-A/SACD and not vinyl.
The digital disc contains digital information that can be extracted in its purest form. Once that information is extracted and stored properly, there is nothing on that disc that will be superior to a streaming setup, assuming everything else is equal (Same DAC and attention to noise reduction, etc). If anything, the mechanical playback of the disc always poses additional challenges that are no longer an issue with a streaming setup. The cost for the players/transports that do actually come close or equal the pure streaming setup are quite a bit more expensive that I'm willing to spend. I also think they are part of are a vanishing market with parts getting harder to replace. Streaming setups and DACs on the other hand, are getting better and less expensive each year.
For some, they like the physical aspect, which is why some people still love cassette tapes, but I'm not one of those. I am happier choosing songs/albums from a catalog on my tablet, and putting them into a queue and letting things play until I fall asleep or turn it off. I don't miss having to clean the discs of smudges, or getting frustrated when a player decides it doesn't like a disc and hangs or skips/flutters/etc. With modern software and PC hardware, it is relatively easy to get a guaranteed perfect extraction of the audio on just about any digital audio/video disc. That's where I'm at.

skrol

This has been an interesting read. I have an iBasso DX170 DAP that I use to stream Qubuz and a Pioneer DV-46AV for playing CD/SACD/DVD-A. I have both going to a Benchmark 1 DAC. The DAP uses the SPIF coaxial input and the Pioneer uses the optical. The Pioneer only outputs 16bit / 44.1KHz to the digital outputs. Comparing CD quality streaming from the DAP to the same version CD played on the Pioneer, the Pioneer wins. I would think that the sources are providing the same digital signal to the Benchmark DAC. The DAC is obviously handling the conversion and the output stage is common.

Why is this? "Norman, plase coordinate"


Maybe this is where it gets into oscillators and clock and such. I would think that the iBasso would be more advanced technology inspite of its small size.

treitz3

skrol wrote: »

Why is this?

In layman's term's? Not all 1's and 0's are equal and your observations are a classic example as to why.

Different designs and DAC's do different things, the same with clocks (or an asynchronous CPU) . Add in optical and now you have conversions. Then there are power/vibration/isolation considerations and a plethora of chances for noise to enter (or ride) the signal somewhere or everywhere across the chain.

All of which, affect the signal/sound.

Tom

treitz3

Hey man, if you want to disagree? Be a real man and state why or correct me. Otherwise, you are just a cowboy wanna be troll.

Putz.

Tom