How Qobuz And Tidal Sound To Me
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DarqueKnight
Posts: 6,764
Introduction
My Bryston BDP-3 digital player has built-in features for Qobuz, Tidal, and Internet radio. The Internet radio feature is used occasionally. The thought of using the Qobuz and Tidal music streaming features never occurred until someone recently asked me a question about optimizing the performance of their streaming rig. I could not answer the question, because I don't stream. I did provide the name of someone I thought was very knowledgeable in the subject. Spotify (free) is sometimes used via my PC to audition new music.
This evaluation was done with 30-day trial subscriptions of Qobuz-Studio level service and Tidal-Lossless level service.
Digital Source
Music streamed from the Internet enters my home via a 1 gigabit Internet connection. The ISP modem is hard wired to a router, which is hard wired to an unmanaged 8-port Ethernet switch (Araknis AN-110-SW-R8). The Araknis switch is hard wired to the "A" side of an UpTone Audio EtherREGEN audio grade Ethernet switch. The dCS Debussy DAC and Bryston BDP-3 digital music player are clocked by a dCS Puccini word clock. The EtherREGEN switch is clocked by an AfterDark Giesemann Trifecta Emperor Double Crown 10 MHz Master Clock. Music files are stored on a Synology DS718+ Network Attached Storage (NAS). Ethernet cables between the EtherREGEN and NAS and EtherREGEN and BDP-3 are Revelation Audio Labs Cat8+. All other Ethernet cables are Monoprice Cat8.
Figure 1. Digital source components.
Figure 2. Digital, analog, power, and control interfaces for two channel stereo system.
The Sound
Figure 3. Bottom line: Streamed music did not sound as good as music from my music server.
On my system, comparing different formats/resolutions of the same song and the same song/same resolution but different playback platforms, the hierarchy of sound quality was as follows:
1. Native DSD from NAS.
2. DSD upconverted from FLAC (192K>96K>88.2K>44.1K) from NAS.
3. Native FLAC HiRez (192K>96K>88.2K>44.1K) from NAS.
4. Qobuz HiRez.
5. Native FLAC 44.1K from NAS.
6. Qobuz 44.1K.
7. Tidal 44.1K. Tidal sounded better than Internet radio, but the sound quality reminded me of Internet radio.
Aside from the spatial issues, Qobuz HiRez had fantastic sound quality that came close to the sound quality of native HiRez files of the same bit depth and sample rate.
However, even if the streamed music had been indistinguishable from music from the server, I still would prefer local server based playback for philosophical and lifestyle reasons. I prefer to own rather than rent. I prefer to own my residence rather than rent. I prefer to own my vehicles rather than lease them. I prefer to own physical music media, and make digital copies from them, rather than rent music from a streaming service.
I listened to a lot more songs than those listed in table 1, but the table 1 songs are those that were listened to the most.
Qobuz and Tidal both presented sound stages with shortened depth, and sometimes shortened width, with no images projected further than the speaker plane. Qobuz generally had more clarity, detail and more natural sounding bass than Tidal. Curiously, most of the Tidal songs I listened to did not report their bit rate. Of the nine Tidal songs listed in table 1, only "Fireopal", "Slow Jam", and "Undun" showed their bit rates.
The sound stage width and depth truncation may have been due to compression. I asked Qobuz via email if there was any type of compression applied to their music streams. I did not receive a reply.
Figure 4. When playing the FLAC version of "Rain Down On Me" from the NAS, the BDP-3 digital player reported a constant bit rate of 1412 kbps.
I'm not sure why the BDP-3 reported a bit rate of 1412 kbps.
2 channels x 16 bits/sample x 44,100 samples/second = 1,411,200 bps or 1411.2 kbps
The Windows operating system reported a file size of 77,697,024 bytes for this music file.
1,411,200 bits/second x 440 second song length = 620,928,000 bits
620,928,000 bits x 1 byte/8 bits = 77,616,000 bytes, which is very close to the file size reported by Windows.
"Rain Down On Me" did not have a constant bit rate when streamed from Qobuz. The variable bit rate ranged from a low of below 500 kbps to a high of a little under 1100 kbps.
Figure 5. Lower end bit rate from Qobuz stream for "Rain Down On Me".
Figure 6. Higher end bit rate from Qobuz stream for "Rain Down On Me".
Obviously, with bit rates this low, a CD quality file size of over 77 megabytes was not going to be realized. Hence my question to Qobuz regarding file size compression.
Figure 7. Tidal did not report a bit rate for this song.
Figure 8. For DSD files from the NAS, the BDP-3 reported a constant bit rate of 2,822 Kbps.
Conclusion
I would not implement Internet-streamed music in my primary home stereo system. I might consider it for a secondary system at home and/or at work...providing I could get over the psychological hurdle of subscription fees.
References
The Turntable Retirement Project
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2272111
The Disc-less Life
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/183308/the-disc-less-life-no-cds-sacds-dvds-blu-rays-or-vinyl-records
The PCM To DSD Conversion Project
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/179508/the-pcm-to-dsd-conversion-project
My Bryston BDP-3 digital player has built-in features for Qobuz, Tidal, and Internet radio. The Internet radio feature is used occasionally. The thought of using the Qobuz and Tidal music streaming features never occurred until someone recently asked me a question about optimizing the performance of their streaming rig. I could not answer the question, because I don't stream. I did provide the name of someone I thought was very knowledgeable in the subject. Spotify (free) is sometimes used via my PC to audition new music.
This evaluation was done with 30-day trial subscriptions of Qobuz-Studio level service and Tidal-Lossless level service.
Digital Source
Music streamed from the Internet enters my home via a 1 gigabit Internet connection. The ISP modem is hard wired to a router, which is hard wired to an unmanaged 8-port Ethernet switch (Araknis AN-110-SW-R8). The Araknis switch is hard wired to the "A" side of an UpTone Audio EtherREGEN audio grade Ethernet switch. The dCS Debussy DAC and Bryston BDP-3 digital music player are clocked by a dCS Puccini word clock. The EtherREGEN switch is clocked by an AfterDark Giesemann Trifecta Emperor Double Crown 10 MHz Master Clock. Music files are stored on a Synology DS718+ Network Attached Storage (NAS). Ethernet cables between the EtherREGEN and NAS and EtherREGEN and BDP-3 are Revelation Audio Labs Cat8+. All other Ethernet cables are Monoprice Cat8.
Figure 1. Digital source components.Figure 2. Digital, analog, power, and control interfaces for two channel stereo system.The Sound
Figure 3. Bottom line: Streamed music did not sound as good as music from my music server.On my system, comparing different formats/resolutions of the same song and the same song/same resolution but different playback platforms, the hierarchy of sound quality was as follows:
1. Native DSD from NAS.
2. DSD upconverted from FLAC (192K>96K>88.2K>44.1K) from NAS.
3. Native FLAC HiRez (192K>96K>88.2K>44.1K) from NAS.
4. Qobuz HiRez.
5. Native FLAC 44.1K from NAS.
6. Qobuz 44.1K.
7. Tidal 44.1K. Tidal sounded better than Internet radio, but the sound quality reminded me of Internet radio.
Aside from the spatial issues, Qobuz HiRez had fantastic sound quality that came close to the sound quality of native HiRez files of the same bit depth and sample rate.
However, even if the streamed music had been indistinguishable from music from the server, I still would prefer local server based playback for philosophical and lifestyle reasons. I prefer to own rather than rent. I prefer to own my residence rather than rent. I prefer to own my vehicles rather than lease them. I prefer to own physical music media, and make digital copies from them, rather than rent music from a streaming service.
Table 1 - List Of Song Version Comparisons
I listened to a lot more songs than those listed in table 1, but the table 1 songs are those that were listened to the most.
Qobuz and Tidal both presented sound stages with shortened depth, and sometimes shortened width, with no images projected further than the speaker plane. Qobuz generally had more clarity, detail and more natural sounding bass than Tidal. Curiously, most of the Tidal songs I listened to did not report their bit rate. Of the nine Tidal songs listed in table 1, only "Fireopal", "Slow Jam", and "Undun" showed their bit rates.
The sound stage width and depth truncation may have been due to compression. I asked Qobuz via email if there was any type of compression applied to their music streams. I did not receive a reply.
Figure 4. When playing the FLAC version of "Rain Down On Me" from the NAS, the BDP-3 digital player reported a constant bit rate of 1412 kbps.I'm not sure why the BDP-3 reported a bit rate of 1412 kbps.
2 channels x 16 bits/sample x 44,100 samples/second = 1,411,200 bps or 1411.2 kbps
The Windows operating system reported a file size of 77,697,024 bytes for this music file.
1,411,200 bits/second x 440 second song length = 620,928,000 bits
620,928,000 bits x 1 byte/8 bits = 77,616,000 bytes, which is very close to the file size reported by Windows.
"Rain Down On Me" did not have a constant bit rate when streamed from Qobuz. The variable bit rate ranged from a low of below 500 kbps to a high of a little under 1100 kbps.
Figure 5. Lower end bit rate from Qobuz stream for "Rain Down On Me".Figure 6. Higher end bit rate from Qobuz stream for "Rain Down On Me".Obviously, with bit rates this low, a CD quality file size of over 77 megabytes was not going to be realized. Hence my question to Qobuz regarding file size compression.
Figure 7. Tidal did not report a bit rate for this song.Figure 8. For DSD files from the NAS, the BDP-3 reported a constant bit rate of 2,822 Kbps.Conclusion
I would not implement Internet-streamed music in my primary home stereo system. I might consider it for a secondary system at home and/or at work...providing I could get over the psychological hurdle of subscription fees.
References
The Turntable Retirement Project
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2272111
The Disc-less Life
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/183308/the-disc-less-life-no-cds-sacds-dvds-blu-rays-or-vinyl-records
The PCM To DSD Conversion Project
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/179508/the-pcm-to-dsd-conversion-project
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
Comments
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In all of my travels, I have always had the same conclusion as you....as far as the end result as to what hits my ears.
With that said, only recently have I changed my opinion on this. Listening to Trey's system, there is nothing left wanting....and I do mean nothing. He runs no physical media and I do not believe he runs any server. He just streams on Tidal.
While (on my service with Qobuz) I have observed better sound with Qobuz over Tidal (very slight advantage), the difference is not worth it to some to ditch Tidal and start their playlist all over again with Qobuz.
Streaming is a challenging thing to get right and even high $$$ stores and private demos with 1/2 million dollar plus systems don't get it right. Trey, on the other hand?
He has nailed it. FWIW.
Nice write up though, as usual, Luther. Great job! On a different note...your woodworking skills have gotten to be off the freakin' hook man!
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I just started my Qobuz journey. Had the entire week off to evaluate. I spent most of the week reassessing my rig. Did a LOT of tube rolling since my pre has 6 positions plus a rectifier. I evaluated a butt load of combo's using very familiar material streamed via Qobuz and the BlueSound Node 3 into my modded Eastern Electric Mini Max Plus dac.
It figures the end of the week is when I found (or perhaps rediscovered) a sublime combination that has me pumped to listen to music again on the main rig.
If you read some of my other posts I was thinking about abandoning tubes since I just don't have the time or the drive to constantly roll different combinations. Tony said I might regret that decision since I have put the past 12-15 years into tube hunting, evaluating and in general just loving tubes in my rig.
I sat for 8 hours today using Qobuz listening to all types of music and artists and the grin never left my face. The rig is back and sounds absolutely fantastic.
I still have some tweaking to do with the Qobuz stream (in need of a good shielded 30' Ethernet cable) and adding the linear power supply to the Node 3. But I haven't been this completely happy with the rig in awhile. I had it dialed in awhile ago and started messing with it (rolling tubes) and it lost some of it's Mojo. Since I listen infrequently compared to the past, I have been avoiding getting it 100% dialed in again.
It's fricking amazing how a pair of tubes can subtly change the character of the rig. Even swapping positions makes an audible difference.
Summing up, I have no problem "renting" some music and so far The BlueSound Node 3 and Qobuz have been extremely positive. Qobuz has really impressed me with the SQ. I don't have near the time I used to have to have dedicated listening sessions, so I've slowed buying music, etc. I am trying to become a tad less analytical about the rig and trying to just enjoy the music. My anality makes that part hard.
For future record here is the tube compliment.
(2) 1957 Tung Sol 5751, long ladder gray plate, square getter
(2) 1955 Brimar ECC82, long ladder black plate, bent square getter
(2) 1960 Sylvania JHS 5814, 3 mica (Gold Print) pinch plate, square getter
(1) 1957 Tung Sol JTL 6x4, black plate, double D getter (rectifier)
Qobuz FTW
H9
P.s. Tung Sol and Brimar tubes are 2 of the most underrated NOS tube companies around."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Luther?
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Woodworking skills?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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What is @Wardsweb- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Luther?DarqueKnight wrote: »Woodworking skills?
LoL.
I read that barely awake this morning and thought for a second I slipped into a parallel universe.
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DarqueKnight wrote: »Woodworking skills?Luther?What is @Wardsweb
I'll take "Consequences of posting without coffee first", Alex. DOH!
Um, yeah.....sorry about that. Brain ****. Serious one at that.....Carry on.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Thanks for you careful thoughts and analysis @DarqueKnight. For more of us with more modest rigs, however, the SQ difference is very slight. And the cost just makes no sense. At $15 a month for the family plan on tidal I will pay $3600 for 20 years. If I bought 5000 albums at a modest $10 a pop, that’s 50k. For the very slight difference (almost negligible) it makes in my system, I can’t justify the cost difference…Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
@DarqueKnight - great write-up, thanks!CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC
DACs: Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III (x2); Denafrips Ares II (x2)
Streamers: ROKU (x3); Bluesound Node 2i and Node N130 w/LHY LPS // Receivers: Yamaha RX-V775BT; Yamaha RX-V777
Preamps: B&K Ref 50; B&K Ref 5 S2; Classe CP-800 MkII; Audio Research SP16L (soon)
Amps: Niles SI-275; B&K ST125.7; B&K ST125.2; Classe CA-2300; Butler Audio TDB-5150
Speakers: Boston Acoustics CR55; Focal Chorus 705v; Wharfedale Diamond 10.2; Monitor Audio Silver-1; Def Tech Mythos One (x4)/Mythos Three Center (x2)/Mythos Two pr.; Martin Logan Electromotion ESL; Legacy Audio Victoria/Silverscreen Center; Gallo Acoustics Reference 3.1; SVS SB-1000 Pro; REL HT-1003; B&W ASW610; HifiMan HE400i
Turntable: Dual 721 Direct-Drive w/Audio Technica AT-VM95e cart
Cables: Tripp-lite 14ga. PCs, Blue Jeans Cable ICs, Philips PXT1000 ICs; Kimber Kable DV30 coaxial ICs; Canare L-4E6S XLR ICs; Kimber Kable 8PR & 8TC speaker cables. -
My understanding is that MQA (Tidal) compresses the HF content, so more lossy than some other formats.
So far, I've stayed with Spotify, and if I I really like something, I'll then purchase it in some type of format. The portable aspects of Spotify (lower data usage) are a plus to me."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Great write up Ray
So when I use Tidal, I am not using mqa since my dac doesn't recognize that.
No complaints with Tidal. Whenever I hit the lottery I will go back to buying music! Haha- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Great write up Ray
So when I use Tidal, I am not using mqa since my dac doesn't recognize that.
No complaints with Tidal. Whenever I hit the lottery I will go back to buying music! Haha
The TIDAL software player for PC does only the initial (partial) unfolding. To get the full resolution of a 192kHz flac MQA file you would need an MQA enabled DAC.
Unfortunately in my case since I took their software out of the loop, the TIDAL app that someone wrote for the Squeezebox Touch does not do any unfolding of MQA, so those files just default to CD Redbook resolution somehow.George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Crown D150 amp
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
I've found the volume balancing in the tidal app adds alot of compression, turned that off a long time ago- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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I've found the volume balancing in the tidal app adds alot of compression, turned that off a long time ago
Are you talking about “loudness normalization?” Cause that’s all I see in the iPhone app…Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
Correct- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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For the sake of reference, my understanding is that Qobuz is straight hi-res...as listed...either standard 16/44 Red-Book CD quality, or 24-bit hi-res, etc.,...no compression. You get what you get, with total transparency as far as playback quality. It varies by album.
My Innuos Zen works natively with Qobuz, so I can easily see the playback quality of specific tracks...on a trial basis...30 seconds at-a-time. I have resisted the temptation (so far) to subscribe to Qobuz, since I can replicate my most desired hi-res offerings via either CD/FLAC rips, or by downloading from HDtracks."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Twilight Zone... -
Twilight Zone...
Well hello Luther,
Hope all is well with you and your lovely wife.
--Ron2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
