Streaming....better than physical? I think so...

VR3

You are one of us now

tophatjohnny

xschop wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

No to escalate things, but if the interior of a disc player is “noisy”, what does that say for a vinyl rig? That particular medium seems fraught with noise sources…

Vinyl sounds best with a 6-pack.

I used to tell people our band sounds best after they’ve drank a 6 pack, and I even named the band “Free Beer” 😳

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

treitz3 wrote: »

Here - I may be describing audible jitter. Maybe that's the noise I am describing.

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Confirmed. It is jitter that I am trying to describe. https://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like#listen

Also, here is a great video explanation of what jitter is and how it affects the signal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzoqEb2KMk&t=2s

I was even trying to describe this "noise" way back in June of last year. (Will have to skip the first couple of paragraphs) - https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2687406/#Comment_2687406

So, apparently, Trey and I have been balls to the wall trying to get rid of any unwanted noise (I.E. "jitter") this whole time. I just never knew how to describe it, other than it was an unwanted artifact. You may realize that you have it right now. You may not. You will damned sure know it when it is gone though.

Looking back and knowing what I know now? Every mention on this forum and others of this "noise" or "unwanted artifact(s)" in the music has been this demon. On all of the networking threads, LPS threads and even switch threads (the ER).

I knew what I heard....just didn't know what it was. Now I do.

Tom

From the article you provided that included test samples regarding what jitter sounds like, the author states the following:

“It is unlikely in the real world for a digital-to-analog converter to have a jitter higher than 2µs RMS.”

All of the audio samples provided were 2µs or higher. The author stated that the higher samples were included so that jitter would be more audible; and they were.

If real-world dacs keep jitter below 2µs (a kind of worst-case scenario) it stands to reason that, in most cases, jitter is largely undetectable by human hearing. And, yes, I could hear the jitter on the 2µs samples; hence my carefully chosen words above.

The only way to really know the jitter performance of one’s system is to subject the equipment to testing, since each digital piece in the signal chain will introduce its own jitter levels.

However, I think it’s still entirely possible to not prefer the sound of a dac that perhaps measures better than another one in this specific parameter. Example, I prefer the sound of my R2R dac over the delta-sigma dacs I own; the latter measure better than the ladder. 😁

In the other video you provided, Hans said that as long as what is stored remains in the digital domain it can be copied thousands of generations deep and without loss (the 1s and 0s argument). It is only when digital tampering occurs (i.e mp3, re-mastering) that the output is different than what was originally put in, per Hans.

invalid

There really isn't any 1's and 0's it's a voltage difference, which is technically analog, only the interpretation is digital.

treitz3

I am not here to argue, neither educate. It seems someone is determined to go head to head with me, when twice now, they are off the mark.

Jitter does not only manufacture itself in a DAC. I'll just say that and leave it be.

Tom

xschop

tophatjohnny wrote: »

xschop wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

No to escalate things, but if the interior of a disc player is “noisy”, what does that say for a vinyl rig? That particular medium seems fraught with noise sources…

Vinyl sounds best with a 6-pack.

I used to tell people our band sounds best after they’ve drank a 6 pack, and I even named the band “Free Beer” 😳

Beer is a good idea too, especially if it's someone else's music taste to endure.
I was thinking one of these 6-packs to add to the vinyl texture...🙂

invalid

I like how people say this stuff shouldn't matter, when they have never tried it. You don't have to spend a fortune for these things to make a difference.

VR3

I will stand with Tom on this every day but Tuesday. Tremendous gains to be had by starting at the beginning to the end. Going from the road to the modem to the router to the streamer to the dac, all of the power supplies, cables etc. Every little bit makes a difference

jbreezy5

Some people say they don’t want to argue or educate, but many times over they do these very things, and it can be seen all over this forum.

But when called upon to have a logical discussion, they just say the one debating the OP’s claim is simply wrong. Yes, Tom I am challenging you to re-examine your own claims.

I’m doing this b/c you make very strong claims about what you hear, then talk down to others as though they are inferior listeners if they don’t agree with your perceptions.

Why is that?

You have shared videos intending to support your subjective impressions, but that, in fact, challenge them. I’m simply pointing it out.

Emlyn

It's a good discussion. But it does seem like "jitter" is used lately to describe interference that people can hear in a system as if that's the main or only source of noise. Jitter, aka timing errors on playback, has been a known problem for decades with digital audio and was largely solved for audible effects with disc based gear a long time ago. But there are lots of other noise sources which could include electronic noise in power supply or spinning motor in a disc drive, external interference, the motor in a fridge running, a dimmer switch, improperly grounded cables, etc. The goal should be to isolate a high end audio system from all that stuff, not just jitter. And there are lots of ways of doing it.

treitz3

@jbreezy5 - So far, you have stated that;

I have dirty electricity
The power supplies within my sources are insufficient
My cables have RMI/EFI issues
I am hallucinating
I don't understand the electrical noise I am talking about
Jitter is largely undetectable by a human ear
I need to subject my equipment for testing
I only make "claims"
I contradict myself
I need to re-examine my own claims

....and you wonder why I don't want to argue with or educate you? It seems as if you have already made up your mind. Yet, I am the one that talks down to others and doesn't agree with other's perceptions?

Got it.

My hearing sucks, I'm hallucinating and I am uneducated about my own system. Duly noted.

Tom

treitz3

FYI...



Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

@jbreezy5 - So far, you have stated that;

I have dirty electricity
The power supplies within my sources are insufficient
My cables have RMI/EFI issues
I am hallucinating
I don't understand the electrical noise I am talking about
Jitter is largely undetectable by a human ear
I need to subject my equipment for testing
I only make "claims"
I contradict myself
I need to re-examine my own claims

....and you wonder why I don't want to argue with or educate you? It seems as if you have already made up your mind. Yet, I am the one that talks down to others and doesn't agree with other's perceptions?

Got it.

My hearing sucks, I'm hallucinating and I am uneducated about my own system. Duly noted.

Tom

You eisegete well. Impressive.

And no, you cannot educate me because you are dismissive of logic.

nooshinjohn

Bozo listed...

heiney9

Jitter is additive. Most audiophiles do not even realize that they have jitter until it's reduced. Today's digital devices are better than 20 years ago.

But you must know each designer may decide what's important in their design. One can't make the blanket statement that all jitter and other noise has been reduced to inaudible levels in today's gear to make it a non-issue.

All the expense may go into one or two places while other areas are just adequate. I am a huge believer that the most important part of an audio design is the power supply section. I can tell you from experience when this is short cutted, it's very apparent and unpleasant.

H9

treitz3

jbreezy5 wrote: »

You eisegete well. Impressive.

And no, you cannot educate me because you are dismissive of logic.

So, now my comprehension skills are in question and I am dismissive of logic. Is there anything else you would like to degrade or insult me on today, or are you done?

Look, I am quite sure that we would get along great if we knew each other and you heard my system. The fact that you are informing me of what I hear is really bothersome. The fact is, you know NOTHING of what I hear. Commenting on what I hear, when you haven't heard my system is as wrong as commenting on gear you have never laid your ears on. In other words, you have zero experience on it/with it.

FACTS -

You have not heard my system
You have zero experience with my system
You have not heard the same things I have (we all hear things differently - no two ears are alike)
I don't like arguing
I don't like circular arguments
I get along with most everyone and am receptive to input
I don't know everything about audio but I know what I hear
I don't take kindly to insults and will respond - not in the manner in which you might expect either

That said, I didn't post those links to educate folks. I posted them because I was trying to describe what I hear and when I found the links/videos, I thought I would be kind enough to share them. They are there for anyone. They are not there for any other reason.

I like sharing my observations, experiences and my audio journey, for those who may be interested. I do not like being confronted with this kind of BS, insults and comments on what I hear. If I wasn't receptive to what others had to offer on this forum (and others), I would not be where I am currently at along my audio journey.

Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

You eisegete well. Impressive.

And no, you cannot educate me because you are dismissive of logic.

So, now my comprehension skills are in question and I am dismissive of logic. Is there anything else you would like to degrade or insult me on today, or are you done?

Look, I am quite sure that we would get along great if we knew each other and you heard my system. The fact that you are informing me of what I hear is really bothersome. The fact is, you know NOTHING of what I hear. Commenting on what I hear, when you haven't heard my system is as wrong as commenting on gear you have never laid your ears on. In other words, you have zero experience on it/with it.

FACTS -

You have not heard my system
You have zero experience with my system
You have not heard the same things I have (we all hear things differently - no two ears are alike)
I don't like arguing
I don't like circular arguments
I get along with most everyone and am receptive to input
I don't know everything about audio but I know what I hear
I don't take kindly to insults and will respond - not in the manner in which you might expect either

That said, I didn't post those links to educate folks. I posted them because I was trying to describe what I hear and when I found the links/videos, I thought I would be kind enough to share them. They are there for anyone. They are not there for any other reason.

I like sharing my observations, experiences and my audio journey, for those who may be interested. I do not like being confronted with this kind of BS, insults and comments on what I hear. If I wasn't receptive to what others had to offer on this forum (and others), I would not be where I am currently at along my audio journey.

communicating

You literally cut-and-pasted statements that were within a specific context, that was not accusatory to you, but rather communicating ways to eliminate electrical noise, which you confirmed was the kind of noise you eliminated from your system.

Nearly all of the statements I made were conditional in nature. I also never said that digital jitter is inaudible (in fact, I said I can hear the lowest jitter sample provided of 2us, but since that is on the high-end of what modern digital devices produce, audibility decreases below that).

I actually expressly stated, that your CDP, preamp, and amplifier have sufficient power supplies to suppress audible noise and if any noise remains the only other source for noise would be the cables.

After that (for all people, not just you) would be hallucinations.

So, not an insult, but a fact, you misinterpreted much of what I communicated.

If you are so diplomatic and sincere as you say, why have you elsewhere in this forum, and even, on this OP act otherwise.

Perhaps you don’t mean to; maybe you don’t honestly realize how some statements you make sound. Ok fine, that’s fair.

But I often perceive you set up this paradigm that you are the standard for audiophiles, and if someone disagrees then they are inferior and/or incorrect.

Maybe I’m the only one who thinks this, but maybe I’m not.

Everything you said in your last post is just as true for anyone else on this forum.

treitz3

jbreezy5 wrote: »

But I often perceive you set up this paradigm that you are the standard for audiophiles, and if someone disagrees then they are inferior and/or incorrect.

That's it. I am done with the insults. That is a ridiculous assumption/accusation. You have now been added to the Bozo list. A distinction only one other person has earned in the 20 or so years of being online.

I told you, I don't like insults and I don't like to argue. Have a nice life.

Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

“I told you, I don't like insults and I don't like to argue. Have a nice life.

Tom

False! You have a “Bozo” list. Complete hypocrisy.

rebelsoul

If they don't know they don't know.

treitz3

I have stated what I have to you, @jbreezy5. Once you are on the list? That's it. It's permanent. You can keep talking but I will not be able to read what you have to say.

Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

I have stated what I have to you, @jbreezy5. Once you are on the list? That's it. It's permanent. You can keep talking but I will not be able to read what you have to say.

Tom

Couldn’t be more pleased.

machone

I
Yet another Mojo Audio blog link.

I have been using his DACs and LPSs for years. I remember the first time I listened to my system with his upgrades I was shocked. I have followed his lead for years with great results.

Stop fighting and read a blog from an expert.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions/

daddyjt

@jbreezy5 I wish you could see the depth to which you have mis-characterized Tom. The dust on his system is probably worth more than my entire 2ch rig. And yet, he and I have been exchanging recommendations on stellar recordings for almost 6 years. Sometimes it’s a PM, sometimes it’s a text and sometimes it’s a phone call - but every 2-3 months we give each-other the scoop on what we’ve found since our last correspondence. He has never talked down to me or berated my (modest) system. Ever. We talk about the MUSIC, and what we are hearing. We listen for and appreciate the same things in recordings. I’ve gotten many great recommendations from him that I would never have found on my own. I sincerely hope to meet him in person one day, and if that day comes at my place, in front of my system, I know that he will be respectful and honest about what he hears - and I would welcome any feedback he has, as I know it comes from one place, and one place only - The love of MUSIC….

nooshinjohn

Tom is one of the finest people to talk with about all things audio, and sometimes about life as well. Just don't bring up the "Flying Tylers"...

tophatjohnny

When I hear Jitter I Bug out !

jbreezy5

I appreciate your comments @daddyjt. Unfortunately, I have read some of his comments on this forum that are at times less than friendly to others. I’m glad that you’ve had better experiences with him.

At one point, I spoke well of him to another member on this forum via PM.

I don’t shut people out b/c of disagreements. Since this escalated I apologize to the forum for that. It’s probably best he blocked me since we couldn’t resolve our differences.

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

I got laughed at by a member of this forum whom I deeply respect on a comment that I made about a CDP being an inherently "noisy" environment.

CDPs are inherently noisy. Any spinning, vibrating mechanical device is inherently noisy. Furthermore, mechanical vibration can induce electrical noise in circuits.

treitz3 wrote: »

The same type of noise that I was able to eradicate/eliminate from the streaming setup. It's electrical.

Electrical noise comes from many sources, e.g. jitter, phase noise, power line noise, power supply noise, noise from active and passive electrical components in the individual devices in the audio chain, and mechanically induced noise.

treitz3 wrote: »

@jbreezy5 - I don't think you are understanding the noise I am talking about.

I understand what you are talking about. I have gone to great lengths to reduce various types of electrical noise in my audio and video systems. For example, I use a very low phase noise Ethernet switch with superior electrical noise filtering properties between my NAS and digital music player. The switch's phase noise performance was further enhanced by using an external 10 MHz clock with even lower phase noise. The switch's original switch mode power supply was replaced with a low noise linear power supply and a high quality DC power cable. All source components sit on sorbothane isolation platforms. All source components are fed ultrapure regenerated AC power. The source component AC regenerator is fed by a dedicated 20 amp AC circuit which is terminated by a passive in-wall noise filtering AC receptacle. Power cables are heavy gauge copper with noise cancelling geometries. Digital cables (Ethernet, coax, USB) have vibration damping jacket structures and electrical noise abatement designs. Separate types of data lanes are used for incoming and outgoing music data. Data from the NAS in to the digital player is via Ethernet cable. Data from the digital player goes out over USB to a word clock. Data from the word clock goes out to the DAC via coax.

treitz3 wrote: »

Here - I may be describing audible jitter. Maybe that's the noise I am describing.

Again, it's not just jitter.

daddyjt wrote: »

No to escalate things, but if the interior of a disc player is “noisy”, what does that say for a vinyl rig? That particular medium seems fraught with noise sources…

Turntable systems are fraught with noise sources. That is why the uber high end turntables weigh 10 tons. Even with no snap, crackle and pop, a new stylus sliding in clean grooves produces some noise due to friction. Some vinylphiles go so far as to further isolate their turntables from the vibrations produced by the loudspeakers by putting the turntable in a separate room. I was pleasantly surprised by the increase in clarity and detail achieved by converting my records to DSD64 digital files. My turntable rig didn't weigh 10 tons, but it, and it's associated Pass Labs phono pre, weren't slouches either.

tophatjohnny

Turntable systems are fraught with noise sources. That is why the uber high end turntables weigh 10 tons. Even with no snap, crackle and pop, a new stylus sliding in clean grooves produces some noise due to friction. Some vinylphiles go so far as to further isolate their turntables from the vibrations produced by the loudspeakers by putting the turntable in a separate room. I was pleasantly surprised by the increase in clarity and detail achieved by converting my records to DSD64 digital files. My turntable rig didn't weigh 10 tons, but it, and it's associated Pass Labs phono pre, weren't slouches either.

[/quote]

Interesting vinyl to DSD64 and how well I know the amount of hard drive space that takes as my favorite of my favorites are converted from cd to DSD256 and pure bliss when listening through my
Streamer! I just wish the Marantz 8805 & 8802 could read those files but even with 24bit 192k Hz the Marantz pre’s are no slouches either! Of course they are not in the same League as the Vega G2 but both server different purposes!

billbillw

I'm with you Tom. My old Sony SCD-333ES player has been in a box for over a year and may never come back out. It really wasn't used much in the last 5 years since I picked up the TEAC UD-301 DAC and started my way into having everything on a server. That also prompted me to sell my Pioneer D9J.

Streaming from a carefully chosen digital file is superior once you step up to a mid-range DAC. Take care to rip your discs using EAC with the secure rip features enabled, and convert to FLAC. For SACDs, there are ways to rip into a DSD file with some very inexpensive BluRay players.
The question is, how long do I hold on to my CD collection? At some point, they will suffer from disc rot...but I have them to prove I paid for them at one point!