Streaming....better than physical? I think so...

treitz3

But that depends.

On many, many factors.

I have a Marantz Reference CDP that it seems to me leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to the DAC it has. It was great when I got it years ago....but.....

That is one aspect. I could care less about that for this conversation.

I got laughed at by a member of this forum whom I deeply respect on a comment that I made about a CDP being an inherently "noisy" environment.

I still hold that stance.

When I can hear said noise and it's obvious? There is no discussion needed. It is what it is.

A/B comparisons, discussions, empirical evidence and simple observations without going into uber detail dictates that this is the case.

All I have to say is that I have not invested as much on one versus the other.......but...

When you know where the noise is gone?

You know. It's undeniable. Indisputable. And you know it when you hear it...

If you don't? Well then......

Tom

marvda1

In my system with a Lumin u1 mini and a Jay's audio cd transport both running through a L.K.S. 004 dac, I find the cd sounds better, of course I cannot account for them both having different cables running to the dac.

pearsall001

treitz3 wrote: »

But that depends.

On many, many factors.

I have a Marantz Reference CDP that it seems to me leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to the DAC it has. It was great when I got it years ago....but.....

That is one aspect. I could care less about that for this conversation.

I got laughed at by a member of this forum whom I deeply respect on a comment that I made about a CDP being an inherently "noisy" environment.

I still hold that stance.

When I can hear said noise and it's obvious? There is no discussion needed. It is what it is.

A/B comparisons, discussions, empirical evidence and simple observations without going into uber detail dictates that this is the case.

All I have to say is that I have not invested as much on one versus the other.......but...

When you know where the noise is gone?

You know. It's undeniable. Indisputable. And you know it when you hear it...

If you don't? Well then......

Tom

Without a doubt. CD players now make excellent paper weights though. Me personally I couldn't be bothered with loading a disc when I have the musical world literally at my fingertips.

Some might take umbridge about sound quality but I find that to be a non issue.

marvda1

@pearsall001 People said that about albums when the cd came out, now they are going back to albums.

treitz3

Let me make this clear right now....

I do not give a rat's *** about "convenience". At all.

What I care about is the end result as to what hits these ears. That's the ONLY thing that matters.

Tom

tophatjohnny

Going along with Tom partly on this one! I’m not streaming from any pay service! Yes I have tried them all to make my decision on building a mighty and very comprehensive digital library and only listening to it . My NAS And its 8 16TB Drives exclude me in a big way because that’s as Physical as it gets right there. .I’m not meaning in Sz because we all know there are more bays and drives to be had! I haven’t filled my current juke box but I’m sure it will happen. A work in progress always!

And whatever works to get your listen on is really all that matters!

🎩

Toolfan66

I’m liking the fact I can just sit there and queue a bunch of songs or albums and let them just play, I also like the fact I can save that list if I choose and continue to play what I didn’t listen to or just play again.

I should also note I like being able to listen to an album scan the songs and see if it’s something I want to purchase in physical format, will use Metallica’s new album for instance, I can honestly say I’m glad I didn’t preorder it, really only like 3 songs interested me..

Just having another means of listening to music is fun in itself. They all have their pros and cons, many of us have stated that many times.

I have no means of getting rid of SACD, DVD-A or Vinyl playback, as a matter of fact my plan is to up my game in Vinyl playback next, it will be awhile before I do so, but that is the plan..

treitz3

Oh, I have way too much physical music to get rid of the CDP or vinyl. Many of which are not available on streaming. I enjoy each playback for what they have to offer and will be doing the same. Upping my vinyl and digital setups.

I'm thinking for the CDP, either losing the Marantz and step up to something better (maybe just a transport) or maybe getting a master or word clock, DAC and going balls to the wall to improve it, like I did with the streaming setup.

I honestly don't know what route I will go there. I wish you could separate the internals of the CDP like you can a streaming setup, optimizing each step along the way. If this could be done, I'd have to learn how. The aforementioned ideas are about the only things I know to do. Maybe look into DAC's, clock's and transports with separate PS's to help isolate the noise.

You already know where I'm headed with the vinyl setup. It's about time I stepped up my game there, as much as I dig vinyl.

Tom

VR3

Physical is better then streaming, just ask the **** industry

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

But that depends.

On many, many factors.

I have a Marantz Reference CDP that it seems to me leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to the DAC it has. It was great when I got it years ago....but.....

That is one aspect. I could care less about that for this conversation.

I got laughed at by a member of this forum whom I deeply respect on a comment that I made about a CDP being an inherently "noisy" environment.

I still hold that stance.

When I can hear said noise and it's obvious? There is no discussion needed. It is what it is.

A/B comparisons, discussions, empirical evidence and simple observations without going into uber detail dictates that this is the case.

All I have to say is that I have not invested as much on one versus the other.......but...

When you know where the noise is gone?

You know. It's undeniable. Indisputable. And you know it when you hear it...

If you don't? Well then......

Tom

What kind of noise are you hearing from your CDP? (i.e. mechanical, electrical, both)

treitz3

The same type of noise that I was able to eradicate/eliminate from the streaming setup. It's electrical.

I never really noticed it before but now that I am well versed at eliminating all types of noise from the streaming setup, I clearly hear the noise now in the CDP. You hear it when the music is being played, just as it did with the streaming setup when I first started streaming.

As I progressed with eliminating the noise from the streaming rig, I was able to notice much more to the music and it has become easier (much easier) to hear/detect this noise. Once you can identify said noise, you hear it all the time in varying systems. Each one has differing levels/types of noise in the signal.

Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

The same type of noise that I was able to eradicate/eliminate from the streaming setup. It's electrical.

I never really noticed it before but now that I am well versed at eliminating all types of noise from the streaming setup, I clearly hear the noise now in the CDP. You hear it when the music is being played, just as it did with the streaming setup when I first started streaming.

As I progressed with eliminating the noise from the streaming rig, I was able to notice much more to the music and it has become easier (much easier) to hear/detect this noise. Once you can identify said noise, you hear it all the time in varying systems. Each one has differing levels/types of noise in the signal.

Tom

Sounds like you have dirty electricity then, since you hear it on both sources. Time to invest in an Audioquest Niagara?

https://www.audioquest.com/Niagara

Alternatively, if you have optical out on your CDP that will eradicate the electrical noise from the CDP, since optical is inherently galvanically-isolated. But optical is considered “lossy stuff”.

Even then, you’re still screwed, electrically-speaking, since your preamp and amp are connected to the same dirty power (although these should have adequate line filtering in their power supplies to suppress electrical noise to inaudibility, just as a reference-level Marantz CDP should).

Hence, Audioquest Niagara, or the like, may be necessary.

The only thing eliminating electrical noise on your streaming set-up is the fact that it is being run via wi-fi, which means you are not sensitive to digital jitter.

This audio signal, however, still passes through your preamp and amp, which are subject to the same dirty power as both your CDP/streaming sources.

So that would mean that the power supplies within your sources are insufficient to eliminate electrical noise, if you can no longer hear the noise through your amp and preamp once using wi-fi on your streamer and using optical out on your CDP.

Anything remaining after that would be RFI/EMI issues with your cables.

If all of the above are addressed, anything remaining would be hallucinations.

heiney9

I have always felt streaming is just as good and in many cases better than physical. There are some variable and those variables are addressed fairly easily. It really depends on where you want to put your $$$. Bluetooth streaming with a compressed audio streaming service certainly isn't what we are talking about here.

Now that there are a couple of legit audiophile streaming services out there, the playing field is a lot more even. I like the convenience, the time saving and I don't have to chase down and spend $$$ on every music purchase. I don't need to physically own every piece of music I listen to. Acquiring every single release of every single band I like to listen to, isn't practical for a variety of reasons.

My rigs have never sounded better or been easier to use (other than the warm up time of components, but that's the same whether playing a disc or streaming).

Streaming FTW. No looking back.

H9

Emlyn

Have any Qobuz users noticed much of a difference between streaming 96/24 albums and 16 bit tracks? One thing I would find appealing would be the amount of truly high-res albums they have available for streaming that aren't available in physical media at all in most cases. I tried Amazon's service a couple years ago and wasn't impressed enough to pay for using that.

Most of my listening is still done via 40K+ PCM or DSD tracks on a couple Sony HAP-Z1ES media players these days. No streaming.

mhardy6647

I have tried to read through this thread, but I am missing something (sorry!) and I am very curious.
What kind of noise was eliminated @treitz3 ? Electrical (hum, hiss)? Or mechanical?

treitz3

@jbreezy5 - I don't think you are understanding the noise I am talking about.

@mhardy6647 - The same type of noise that I was able to eradicate/eliminate from the streaming setup. It's electrical.

I don't have time to type right now but I have heard this noise in Trey's system, with dedicated lines and the same caliber gear. It comes from the PS's and from within the units themselves. When you hear a signal without the noise, you know. It's pretty easy for me to pick up on it now. Now that I know what it sounds like. Trey has done the same things I have to successfully eliminate said noise.

The CDP I am referring too is the Marantz SA-7S1, which was their TOTL, Reference SACD/CDP a couple of years back. https://www.marantz.com/en-us/product/reference-series/sa-7s1

Tom

jbreezy5

treitz3 wrote: »

@jbreezy5 - I don't think you are understanding the noise I am talking about.

Tom

I don’t think you understand the electrical noise that you are talking about. 😉

mhardy6647

. . . .
(no message, sorry)

nooshinjohn

treitz3 wrote: »

Oh, I have way too much physical music to get rid of the CDP or vinyl. Many of which are not available on streaming. I enjoy each playback for what they have to offer and will be doing the same. Upping my vinyl and digital setups.

I'm thinking for the CDP, either losing the Marantz and step up to something better (maybe just a transport) or maybe getting a master or word clock, DAC and going balls to the wall to improve it, like I did with the streaming setup.

I honestly don't know what route I will go there. I wish you could separate the internals of the CDP like you can a streaming setup, optimizing each step along the way. If this could be done, I'd have to learn how. The aforementioned ideas are about the only things I know to do. Maybe look into DAC's, clock's and transports with separate PS's to help isolate the noise.

You already know where I'm headed with the vinyl setup. It's about time I stepped up my game there, as much as I dig vinyl.

Tom

That dCS stack is still available and in your back yard…😇

gudnoyez

Haven't invested in a high end streamer yet, but I like what I hear and the convince I get using my Blusound node through the musical Fidelity Dac streaming Tidal. I enjoy the selection of picking out new music on Tidal that I would listen to on my playlists, but owning 2 Marantz cd players a Marantz SACD player a Oppo player and a couple of others along with 3 turntables and a couple of tape decks.

I have more physical media and tunes and on hard drives than I probably need, plus the fact I just got several SACDs incoming and spent a bunch of money on vinyl at record store day yesterday, I still have CDs that I havent even opened yet. I think I got into the streaming part of the journey a little to late to go full monty however for a person with little physical media then a decent streamer and singing up to Tidal or Quboz I'ds the way to go you get excellent results in sound and something that Tom says he dont give a rat's a.. about convenience. The two reasons why streaming using a streaming service is a good thing.

Plus the tedious job of keeping up a huge collection of files on a hard drive is to much work a streaming service does all the work for you without the hassle of keeping your files in order. Larry I streamed the new Metallica and liked it good enough to buy it to listen to in the truck great crusing tunes, but yeah most definitely being able to check new tunes out and deciding if they are worth a purchase is a good thing about streaming oh yeah congrats on the new Cary.

motorstereo

Heck I've never heard any electrical noise in basic cd players so I know for sure I wouldn't hear any from a totl one.
Someone has hearing that is right up there with superman's.

invalid

motorstereo wrote: »

Heck I've never heard any electrical noise in basic cd players so I know for sure I wouldn't hear any from a totl one.
Someone has hearing that is right up there with superman's.

Some people don't notice it until it's eliminated.

Dr_Wu

I love it all. But, here's my issue: the streamer (Lumin U2 Mini) sounds best when used as a preamp using LEEDH volume control directly to the amp. That renders the CDP and TT useless, as the DAC takes up the ICs to the amp. So, they are in the rack, but go unused. Suggestions welcome.

treitz3

invalid wrote: »

Some people don't notice it until it's eliminated.

Exactly. Been listening to that CDP player for years and never noticed it before.

It was when I went balls to the wall with my streaming setup, attacking every last ounce of noise I could eliminate by the use of seperate power supplies for all gear leading up to it, adding line conditioners throughout the circuit, a RG 400Pro PS, a clock, Ethernet cables that have filters and even a dedicated in line filter (the Muon)? That's when I started hearing the noise disappear.

Now, when I do a direct comparison, same song on the CDP versus the streaming rig, the noise becomes obvious and I would venture to say that 95% of you could easily pick up on the noise.

With the CDP, all of the gear that eliminated said noise in the streaming portion of my rig is all enclosed in one box. With the streaming rig, I have been able to attack all of the aspects and culprits of noise/jitter separately. It makes quite the difference.

Even changing a digital cable from one length to a 1.5meter length can improve the signal/noise. Trey and I both heard that in his rig months ago. THAT is the noise I am talking about.

Tom

treitz3

Here - I may be describing audible jitter. Maybe that's the noise I am describing.

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Tom

skipshot12

Cannot relate. Just recently added a Bluesound Node to run an iPad into my system. Not a fair comparison.
Other than that, all we play are digital discs and LP's in that order.

I'll say this, SACD & DVD-A are far above CD sound.

My preference, in digital discs, is DVD-A over SACD then CD. DVD-A on a Pioneer DV-AX10 is absolutely stunning thru those Burr Brown DAC's. LP & DVD-A to me is a toss up.
Too bad the format war wasn't kind to us end user's.

I would like to hear what streaming brings vs those three digital physical mediums.
Anyone close to Laramie, WY to demo for me what I may be missing?

txcoastal1

Let's Get Physical

https://youtu.be/KDGvSZb9syw

daddyjt

No to escalate things, but if the interior of a disc player is “noisy”, what does that say for a vinyl rig? That particular medium seems fraught with noise sources…

xschop

daddyjt wrote: »

No to escalate things, but if the interior of a disc player is “noisy”, what does that say for a vinyl rig? That particular medium seems fraught with noise sources…

Vinyl sounds best with a 6-pack.

treitz3

treitz3 wrote: »

Here - I may be describing audible jitter. Maybe that's the noise I am describing.

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Confirmed. It is jitter that I am trying to describe. https://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like#listen

Also, here is a great video explanation of what jitter is and how it affects the signal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzoqEb2KMk&t=2s

I was even trying to describe this "noise" way back in June of last year. (Will have to skip the first couple of paragraphs) - https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2687406/#Comment_2687406

So, apparently, Trey and I have been balls to the wall trying to get rid of any unwanted noise (I.E. "jitter") this whole time. I just never knew how to describe it, other than it was an unwanted artifact. You may realize that you have it right now. You may not. You will damned sure know it when it is gone though.

Looking back and knowing what I know now? Every mention on this forum and others of this "noise" or "unwanted artifact(s)" in the music has been this demon. On all of the networking threads, LPS threads and even switch threads (the ER).

I knew what I heard....just didn't know what it was. Now I do.

Tom

rebelsoul

Yes with the power supplies replaced with low noice ones .( Cable box and router) because there on the same circuit. My dh labs Ethernet cables and my lhy switch with lps and a 10mhz clock. And using a friend's moun pro connected to ps audio perfect wave dac with bridge 2 I have surpassed my turntable with a $2000 cart on it .