Ebola outbreak.

BlueFox

Personally, I think this is starting to get scary, or scarier. Since viruses easily mutate I would not be surprised if it mutates into becoming more easily infectious. While every year we wonder if a new flu strain will develop that spreads and has a high mortality rate, we also need to worry about killer viruses, or something else. I can imagine some terrorist groups are already scheming on how to exploit this new 'weapon'.

Anyway, I hope whatever is going on here is soon put to an end.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/health/ebola-outbreak-questions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

nooshinjohn

I was JUST going to post about this. This morning, the first instance of a human being with an active infection was transported to the US, just a stone's throw from the CDC, and several more are expected. Not sure how I feel about this, though I do feel for the families of the victims.

Every time this bug shows itself, it gets progressively more dangerous.

westmassguy

It's very scary indeed. up to 90% mortality rate

chumlie

And it just arrived in USA.

brgman

No reason for it to have to come here.
We can move an army around the world.We could have moved the necessary equipment elsewhere like Gitmo or something.not on US soil.
Poor decision making.
Add in the diseases being brought across our southern border and it could get real ugly,real fast.

westmassguy

brgman wrote: »

No reason for it to have to come here.
We can move an army around the world.We could have moved the necessary equipment elsewhere like Gitmo or something.not on US soil.
Poor decision making.
Add in the diseases being brought across our southern border and it could get real ugly,real fast.

So true.

BlueFox

Scary stuff. Unfortunately, with modern air travel, it will be impossible to contain this disease. It appears you can have it, but not exhibit symptoms for a couple of weeks. Even then, it first acts like many other common illnesses. Hopefully this will lead to medical breakthroughs in dealing with viruses.

gdb

I'd be willing to bet a MW6511 that the Ebola virus has resided within 20mi. of my house and within 45mi. of Georgetown -Wash.,DC for many years..... at good old Fort Detrick in Frederick, Md. (along with many other unspeakable perversions of science and nature ) I doubt that folks are likely to let it "go astray" now, in GA. I sure hope not !

brgman

gdb wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet a MW6511 that the Ebola virus has resided within 20mi. of my house and within 45mi. of Georgetown -Wash.,DC for many years..... at good old Fort Detrick in Frederick, Md. (along with many other unspeakable perversions of science and nature ) I doubt that folks are likely to let it "go astray" now, in GA. I sure hope not !

I'm close to Frederick also but i think Bluefox is spot on that it will travel in through the airlines or something.

WastelandWand'r

Fortunately in my neck of the woods we only have to contend with the nations highest rates of STD's (all of them) and MRSA. Not to mention the top rates in suicide, sexual assault, and sexual abuse of minors. Heaven on earth.
Ebola would be afraid to show up here.
Nathan

cnh

I hate to say this, but it's only a matter of time before something does us in. On another note, there is more than one sci-fi plot/novel where the earth has it's own immune system or balance and it simply takes out humans when they become too plentiful and threaten it. We are an arrogant little species now, aren't we? Perhaps a modicum of humility and a bit more awareness wouldn't hurt us.

cnh

sucks2beme

Ebola has already had an outbreak in Virginia.
It was 100% fatal to monkeys. Good news it only appeared in
humans as a flu like effect. IT is the only strain NOT deadly
to humans. It scared the CDC pretty bad and inspired a movie.
http://www.restonnow.com/2014/07/31/restons-link-to-ebola-nearly-25-years-later/

markmarc

From a purely scientific view, having an infected patient at Emory (just yards away from CDC) makes for a great opportunity to observe the virus in real time with the best equipment available. This may very well lead to a vaccine and quick, effective treatments. We should all remember that the virus has been at the CDC for years along with other places in forms available for study.

BlueFox

I agree. We definitely need to understand this, and all viruses for that matter. As cnh says, at some point the planet is going to fight back against our out of control population growth. This reminds me of the Matrix where the Agent is saying humans are like a virus.

scubasteve4sq

I don't think a vaccine is possible, I did a report on this disease in school, and basically your body completely ignores them, the immune system doesn't attack it. And when it does, the virus can use antibodies and antivirals to speed up cell attachment and reproduction.

tonyb

brgman wrote: »

No reason for it to have to come here.
We can move an army around the world.We could have moved the necessary equipment elsewhere like Gitmo or something.not on US soil.
Poor decision making.
Add in the diseases being brought across our southern border and it could get real ugly,real fast.

True, but poor decision making is the hallmark of everything that's gone south in the last 10 years.

Viruses....mother natures way of evening things out.

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

I hate to say this, but it's only a matter of time before something does us in. On another note, there is more than one sci-fi plot/novel where the earth has it's own immune system or balance and it simply takes out humans when they become too plentiful and threaten it. We are an arrogant little species now, aren't we? Perhaps a modicum of humility and a bit more awareness wouldn't hurt us.

cnh

True Pal, that's why nature has viruses, to take away threats from pesky species. You battle one, another pops up. Who knows too what the possibilities are from digging in the permafrost and what viruses lay there dormant. Ever wonder why we always seem to never get ahead of all the viruses that keep popping up ?

I don't necessarily believe it's a population problem, more so a living conditions problem, and in some areas environmental. Common examples can be Africa and China, India, South America. Many things contribute to a good immune system, or subtract from it.

We can draw parallels if we look at farm animals, even fish. When the animals are kept in pens, crowded together, indoors such as chickens, their health deteriorates substantially. Same with fish. Put too many in a tank, too many together in fish farms, their health goes south making them more susceptible to diseases. So we do what ? Shoot the chickens up with drugs to ward off diseases long enough to bring them to slaughter. Treat the fish with chemicals long enough for them to grow and turned into fillets. Sound natural to you ? Do we not do the same to ourselves ? Crowd people together, then shoot them up with drugs to make them feel better. Just long enough too so that once your working years are done, you die shortly after. We live in areas with poor air quality, poor soil quality. We eat processed foods, or foods picked before maturity, gassed or radiated before hitting the stores. Foods that are shot up with chemicals to promote early growth, more milk, fatter cows. I guarantee you, and you know me, I'm a foodie, you taste a chicken that was grown naturally, or a steak for that matter open ranged on natural food sources....the taste is night and day. The nutrient content is night and day. So why would we not promote such practices ?

I know we've covered this ground before, but until we start putting some importance back on naturally grown foods, our immune systems will suffer too. Until we put some importance on more family owned farms, stop crowding people together like chickens in a pen, and keep the earth reasonably clean in air and land, our species will suffer. Notice I said "reasonably", being good stewards of the planet doesn't mean to be an environmental wacko. We tend to jump to extremes to push agendas, but it's really all about money in the end.

oldrocker

What Tony said. Last week we went to friends for a dinner. He butchered 2 chickens that morning. The taste was beyond words, the veggies from their garden out of this world. I garden myself but considering raising a few "edibles" myself.
I won't even go into the discussions I've had with my own physician over our food supplies and procedures, don't want it viewed as a political thingey. And yes Tony, sadly, it is about the money!

tonyb

oldrocker wrote: »

What Tony said. Last week we went to friends for a dinner. He butchered 2 chickens that morning. The taste was beyond words, the veggies from their garden out of this world. I garden myself but considering raising a few "edibles" myself.
I won't even go into the discussions I've had with my own physician over our food supplies and procedures, don't want it viewed as a political thingey. And yes Tony, sadly, it is about the money!

Good for you man. Unfortunately that way of eating has been so removed from society that most will never know what real food tastes like. Once you do though, it becomes a WTF moment. Then you seek it out.

Metro areas have been chasing out the small farmers from the outskirts. Government has been chasing out farmers from rural areas with overbearing regulations that make it impossible for them to turn a profit in favor of the big corporate farms like Monsanto. Impossible for them to sell their naturally grown products at reasonable prices.

We can go many directions on this subject, but as I said many times before, everything runs together...connected. We tend to band-aide problems without looking at the cause. Want to know why your getting sick, why all these viruses pop up, find the problem first. Once you identify the problem, only then can a course of action be taken. You can't mask every virus, every disease with drugs that make it appear to go away but doesn't.

It's a viscous cycle, because money is the main driver in all this, not problem solving. You would think by now our species would have evolved enough to recognize that fact. If the powers at be truly want to help the people of the world, then living conditions need to be elevated in many countries, food sources and their quality elevated, air and land protected as best we can. Without those 3 things, we simply put a noose around our own necks.

tonyb

One more comment back to Viruses that some of you pointed out already.

Why let someone in the door with a known virus of which there is currently no cure ?
Why let the southern border wide open for even more disease to take hold ?

Are there more sensible options to either of those questions ?

Yeah...but politics and money rule the day, not your well being.

westmassguy

tonyb wrote: »

Why let someone in the door with a known virus of which there is currently no cure ?
Why let the southern border wide open for even more disease to take hold ?

Drug resistant TB, and Ebola. I'm sure neither has a chance of spreading to the general public.

voltz

cnh wrote: »

I hate to say this, but it's only a matter of time before something does us in. On another note, there is more than one sci-fi plot/novel where the earth has it's own immune system or balance and it simply takes out humans when they become too plentiful and threaten it. We are an arrogant little species now, aren't we? Perhaps a modicum of humility and a bit more awareness wouldn't hurt us.

cnh

Like the Book "Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart in it as the story goes along he makes a lot of example of how nature has a natural method of reducing over population of any species. that book left a scar on my brain great but depression story)

Msabot1

Fortunately the transmission of this is not airborne .....yet.....whoever authorized this might have opened a pandoras box...visions of Stephen Kings The Stand come to mind....

Jhayman

The End of the Known World is coming for humans anyway...
The Government is going to release something as a form of population control, they will inoculate the ones they deem necessary and away with the rest of us...
Only a matter of time as has been said already..

tonyb

Dumb decisions by dumb people cost lives....how many times will you let someone throw a rock at your head before you duck ?

markmarc

Looks like a potential vaccine will undergo trials soon.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/health/ebola-vaccine-national-institutes-of-health/

Toolfan66

cnh wrote: »

I hate to say this, but it's only a matter of time before something does us in. On another note, there is more than one sci-fi plot/novel where the earth has it's own immune system or balance and it simply takes out humans when they become too plentiful and threaten it. We are an arrogant little species now, aren't we? Perhaps a modicum of humility and a bit more awareness wouldn't hurt us.

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

True Pal, that's why nature has viruses, to take away threats from pesky species. You battle one, another pops up. Who knows too what the possibilities are from digging in the permafrost and what viruses lay there dormant. Ever wonder why we always seem to never get ahead of all the viruses that keep popping up ?

I don't necessarily believe it's a population problem, more so a living conditions problem, and in some areas environmental. Common examples can be Africa and China, India, South America. Many things contribute to a good immune system, or subtract from it.

We can draw parallels if we look at farm animals, even fish. When the animals are kept in pens, crowded together, indoors such as chickens, their health deteriorates substantially. Same with fish. Put too many in a tank, too many together in fish farms, their health goes south making them more susceptible to diseases. So we do what ? Shoot the chickens up with drugs to ward off diseases long enough to bring them to slaughter. Treat the fish with chemicals long enough for them to grow and turned into fillets. Sound natural to you ? Do we not do the same to ourselves ? Crowd people together, then shoot them up with drugs to make them feel better. Just long enough too so that once your working years are done, you die shortly after. We live in areas with poor air quality, poor soil quality. We eat processed foods, or foods picked before maturity, gassed or radiated before hitting the stores. Foods that are shot up with chemicals to promote early growth, more milk, fatter cows. I guarantee you, and you know me, I'm a foodie, you taste a chicken that was grown naturally, or a steak for that matter open ranged on natural food sources....the taste is night and day. The nutrient content is night and day. So why would we not promote such practices ?

I know we've covered this ground before, but until we start putting some importance back on naturally grown foods, our immune systems will suffer too. Until we put some importance on more family owned farms, stop crowding people together like chickens in a pen, and keep the earth reasonably clean in air and land, our species will suffer. Notice I said "reasonably", being good stewards of the planet doesn't mean to be an environmental wacko. We tend to jump to extremes to push agendas, but it's really all about money in the end.

Very well said guys.

This is just one of many reasons I love reading your posts..

westmassguy

Even with the best precautions, one person, on a plane, undetected, can spread a plague worldwide in a matter of days.
As tony said, unsanitary conditions in developing countries, plus overuse of antibiotics in the food chain in developed countries, add to that the unknown genetically altered plants and animals. A perfect storm is brewing

tonyb

Viruses are hard to tackle because of their ability to mutate, evolve. You find a cure for a particular string of a virus, another variation pops up immune to that previous treatment. Think the Flu virus, every year the CDC must make an educated guess on which various strings of the flu virus to expect. There's simply too many to treat every single one because it has mutated so many times creating various strings.

Here's a good description of why Viruses are hard to tackle....

Bacteria are living cells. They have outer antigens that can be targeted by the human immune system and form the basis for vaccines (although of course they try to evade this in various creative ways). The cells of bacteria contain unique (to bacteria) structures which can be disrupted by bacteriocidal antibiotic chemical compounds without affecting human cells too much; these provide broad targets for therapy. Some of these structures are so unique and evolutionarily-preserved amongst bacteria that the human immune system has evolved to always recognize them and react, even without prior exposure. The majority of bacteria find a place to grow inside a human/further invade tissues, but do not actually enter and live within human cells; this gives them greater exposure to antibiotics and easier exposure to the immune system. However, even bacteria which enter human cells (or ones which are eaten by the human immune system but then evade destruction through various tricks) can be targeted by drugs which ramp up a different aspect of the immune system, or by certain antibiotic drugs which reach an unusually high concentration inside human cells.

Bacteria are virulent by two major mechanisms: toxin production and invasion/inflammation. Exotoxins in particular are often treated with formaldehyde, acid, or heat in order to convert them into toxoids, which means they are still antigenic but have lost their toxicity; this provides another critical target for vaccines and treatments of bacteria that does not exist in (most) viruses. Components of bacterial vaccines include these inactivated toxoids, the outer capsular antigens of bacteria without the bacteria inside or other purified bacterial proteins, killed bacteria, or live (attenuated) bacteria. Furthermore, antitoxins (pre-formed immune globulins which will target the bacterial antigens) are available to counteract the toxins of such bacteria as tetanus, botulism, and diphtheria.

And remember, bacteria can also be targeted by several branches of the immune system on its own. And let's not forget the huge array of available drug targets (which, notably, work on more than just one family of bacteria): bacterial cell wall, bacterial ribosomal proteins, bacterial DNA or RNA polymerase proteins, etc--all of which are molecularly distinct from the corresponding human proteins, making selective toxicity less of a hassle during drug development.


Viruses, on the other hand, are not cellular. We can't kill them simply by disrupting their cells. They are infective nucleic acids which cannot replicate outside of living cells. They must invade a human cell to reproduce, because they cannot produce energy or synthesize molecules on their own. Some viruses replicate inside human cells and then bud off from the human cell inside an "envelope" made from the human cell's own membrane, which helps them evade the immune system on their way to infecting another human cell. Many viruses are protected by protein capsids, which are extremely protective--unlike a bacterial cell wall or membrane, the virus doesn't have to be alive inside the capsid or exchange nutrients and waste with the environment across the capsid; the capsid is merely there to protect the nucleic acid of the virus.

Viruses need to match some sort of receptor in order to gain entry into human cells, and in some viruses, this receptor is one of the few good targets for drug therapy; however, unlike antibacterials, the drug will only work for that particular virus/receptor, because each virus uses a different receptor.

Viruses spend time inside human cells, which protects any outer antigens from some of the aspects of the immune system. There are times when viruses are especially vulnerable during replication, but there are reasons they are harder than bacteria to target with these antireplication drugs: 1) unlike for most bacteria, the drugs need to be small enough to enter the human cell where the virus is replicating, 2) unlike for most bacteria, the drugs can't simply target a protein shared by most viruses; furthermore, many viruses hijack human proteins which cannot be targeted. Overall, there are comparatively few antiviral drugs compared to antibiotics because of the huge difficulty in obtaining selective toxicity. And 3) most drugs available target a certain step of viral replication for a certain family of viruses; however, by the time the patient shows symptoms, the virus has already created countless copies of itself or become latent in human cells, and at that point it is too late for most of the antiviral drugs to be super helpful since they target the replication itself. Even when a good antiviral drug is developed, most of them work only against a single species (or at best, a family) of viruses, which is not the case for most antibiotics.

Many viruses don't spread in ways where they can easily targeted (Polio moves from the GI tract to lymph nodes and then to the blood stream on it's way to the spinal cord to cause paralysis; it is vulnerable to the immune system in vaccinated individuals while it is forced to travel in the blood. In contrast, some viruses like rabies, herpes, and varicella-zoster spread through neurons in order to evade the immune system. Other viruses form syncytia because they travel directly from cell to cell). Also remember that some viruses integrate themselves into human DNA and remain latent for long periods of time, which prevents them from being cleared by drugs or the immune system. The human immune system does have its ways of dealing with viruses, which I can get into in greater detail in another post. For certain viruses, the only way we have to treat them is to use interferons to ramp up the immune system (a very unpleasant therapy which must often be maintained for very long periods of time).

One of the reasons that vaccines for some viruses are not effective is that oftentimes, a live (attenuated) vaccine cannot be made for those certain viruses since the reversion mutation rate is too high to provide an acceptable risk; for many viruses, only killed strains can be used, if at all. Without a live attenuated virus strain multiplying inside cells, certain critical aspects of the immune system are not activated against these certain viruses. In cases where killed viruses are able to be used as vaccines, the protection is lesser (for instance, no type-switching to IgA antibodies which would be more effective than IgM) and shorter-lived.

My best take on what is said above....a strong immune system is your best defense against viruses. Coupled with proper living conditions, food/water that's clean and natural....these viruses would hardy ever pop up. Yet we do zip to promote better living conditions, better food quality or control what comes in the door. Many times once a virus takes hold, it can be masked, it's symptoms subdued, but does it ever leave your body ? Will it later evolve...will some sort of stress on the body that weakens your immune system allow it to gain hold once again and mutate ?

Lets say for example a virus such as Ebola, a certain strain this man we have let in the door has, has been subdued. Then lets say he's allowed to walk freely amongst us. 2 years later, the virus evolves into a different string, impervious to current treatments. How many would be infected before he was contained once again ? How many other viruses are coming in the door, be it from our southern border or on an airplane from some foreign country ?

Now, I realize it's impossible to stop everything. Impossible to run every conceivable test on everyone who comes and goes. Pray tell though, why be so blatantly stupid though as to purposely invite disease here ? Am I looking at this wrong ?

markmarc

Tony, one would argue that the disease has already been here in lab research conditions for years. Two, all known proper ways of isolating patients successfully from previous outbreaks is being used in the transport and care.

That being said, the general view that our abuse of antibiotics, chemical fertilizers, etc have had building up effect on our food supply to the point of subverting our health is right on.

tonyb

markmarc wrote: »

Tony, one would argue that the disease has already been here in lab research conditions for years. Two, all known proper ways of isolating patients successfully from previous outbreaks is being used in the transport and care.

That being said, the general view that our abuse of antibiotics, chemical fertilizers, etc have had building up effect on our food supply to the point of subverting our health is right on.

The difference being, if in a lab, it's isolated. In a person, you can't keep them locked up forever. We have some of the planets most deadly viruses locked up in labs for testing, they aren't walking around mingling with the general public.

Maybe all know precautions are being taken with this man, but sooner or later he will be released. Also, what precautions are being taken at our southern border ? None....and we have all sorts crossing there from all parts of the world. Matter of fact, we even advertise it so our enemies have a way in the door. Is this not putting politics ahead of safety ?What reasonable, logical person does this ?

No president in my memory has been able to secure that southern border, they talk a good game, spend money, but the results say otherwise. In some parts, border patrol is 30-40 miles in from the border. Call me crazy, but when you tell me "border patrol", I'm assuming they are on or pretty frickin' close to the border. Does that make any sense to anyone ?

The fence was a joke, never completed either. They say fences don't work....funny, it works around the White House doesn't it ? Remember when that lady tried to drive threw the gates at the White House ? What happened ? They shot her, not a peep out of anyone...should not our southern border be just as formidable ? Because if you want to argue one man is worth more than 350 million, I'm listening.