Emotiva bad business practise thread

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

We stay away from drunken cajuns.

I wonder how many of those who claim to "live on the Bayou" actually live on the Bayou and not in some cookie cutter development with a large runoff pond that has a gator in it surviving off of small pets and Nutria?

bobman1235

To rent a 2 bedroom apartment to have a family in a decent town that isn't run down and falling apart, you're looking at $1200 a month, at least.

Don't have a family at 18? At 18, you should be either going to college or, if that's not for you (which is fine), live with some roommates. Split all the costs, problem solved. If you're getting married and pushing out a baker's dozen of kids at 18 when you can't afford it, you deserve to live in poverty. And if you expect to live in a palace on mimimum wage, same issue. The problem isn't that it's so hard to survive on minimum wage, it's what people consider acceptable for their standard of living. If you have a **** job and no savings and you're 18, you haven't EARNED a two bedroom apartment in a "nice part of town." You've earned a bunch of roommates in a crappy part of town while you get your act together but learn how not to live with mommy and daddy.

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

Really? Have any proof?

Parasound has removed the pictures from their website, now that they have canceled the HDP-70. There's a thread at AVS somewhere that has pictures of the back of both units, they were the same. Like I said, Parasound was smart enough to cancel it, Emotiva went ahead and released it, bugs and all.

From the press release:

The short answer is that after two years the software development team hired for this project
still could not tell us when our units would be finished and they could not assure us that our
high quality standards would be met.

http://www.ncms.no/Downloads/Brosjyre/Parasound/Parasound%207.1%20Announcement.pdf

I know times are tough and competative so sharing, borrowing, farming out happens to keep profit, but your post reads like Parasound no longer makes anything.............and that's not true and misleading. Some of their products (lower end, entry level) are probably farmed out to a degree, but the rest of it is developed by Parasound engineers. Where they choose to have assembly done is their choice.

They design the gear here, then have it manufactured overseas. Seems we are in agreement, they don't build anything, they farm it out. They always have.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Parasound has removed the pictures from their website, now that they have canceled the HDP-70. There's a thread at AVS somewhere that has pictures of the back of both units, they were the same. Like I said, Parasound was smart enough to cancel it, Emotiva went ahead and released it, bugs and all.

Press release:
http://www.ncms.no/Downloads/Brosjyre/Parasound/Parasound%207.1%20Announcement.pdf



They design the gear here, then have it manufactured overseas. Seems we are in agreement, they don't build anything, they farm it out. They always have.

Ok I use the word assemble simply because "build" to me means more than slapping parts in a pcb, so yes we agree. Polk doesn't "build" anything here either so I'm not sure what your point was. The Parasound pre is old news.

Again not sure what you're point was about Parasound not assembling their stuff here. It seems only high end companies do that anymore.

H9

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

Again not sure what you're point was about Parasound not assembling their stuff here. It seems only high end companies do that anymore.

H9

He was commenting that they couldn't develop a Blu Ray player, I was just pointing out that they also don't have the resources to develop a modern pre-pro, that's all.

Had nothing to do with whether or not they make it here, it's that they don't have manufacturing facilities at all, niether do most high end companies. Only mainstream brands like Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. seem to manufacture their own products. And even they farm some of it out.

heiney9

Manufacture, assemble, build......not quite grasping what your point is. Yamaha, Onk, Pioneer are all assembled oversea's.........have been for atleast a decade or more. What do you term a "high end company" most of the ones I think of are 100% here in the US, like Pass Labs, etc.

Last time I checked Parasound was a pretty "mainstream" company and I would expect them to follow the same business model as a Yamaha, Onk or Pioneer. You can't think every one of Yam, Onk, Pio products is 100% developed from the ground up without borrowing either, that's silly.

H9

Jstas

bobman1235 wrote: »

Don't have a family at 18? At 18, you should be either going to college or, if that's not for you (which is fine), live with some roommates. Split all the costs, problem solved. If you're getting married and pushing out a baker's dozen of kids at 18 when you can't afford it, you deserve to live in poverty. And if you expect to live in a palace on mimimum wage, same issue. The problem isn't that it's so hard to survive on minimum wage, it's what people consider acceptable for their standard of living. If you have a **** job and no savings and you're 18, you haven't EARNED a two bedroom apartment in a "nice part of town." You've earned a bunch of roommates in a crappy part of town while you get your act together but learn how not to live with mommy and daddy.

Dude...seriously. I wasn't saying to do that now. The common statements made by those who "moved out at 18" are from a time when it wasn't unheard of and actually quite an accepted thing to do to have a family and kids by the time you were 22-23. You're needless rant only furthers the proof that it's really not only ill-advised to do such things now but pretty much unpossible.

I was merely illustrating the disparities between now and 30, 40, 50 or even 60 years ago when any kid, fresh out of high school, could find a job making something, assembling something, catching something, growing something or selling something for commission and make a decent, living wage. You can't do that now.

You want to repair anything you have to go to school because stuff is so advanced and complicated anymore that any schmuck with a set of wrenches can't really do a decent repair anymore. It's rough, dude. It's real rough. It's been this way for a long time.

When I graduated high school in the mid-90's my grandparents were actually ticked off because I chose to go to college instead of learn a trade or just get a job in a factory somewhere. My dad asked my grandmother "What factories? The one you retired from was torn down 3 years ago for a WAL*MART and the one Stan (my grandfather) worked at is now a Fed Ex freight depot." They said I should learn a trade but my cousin, who knows a trade (he's a mason and tilesetter) was out of work for 8 months at the time because it was right in the middle of that mid-90's recession and the new home construction was down 33%. That was almost 20 years ago and aside from the 4-5 years there during the housing bubble, it's only gotten worse.

You can't do it now. To just be able to live life without worrying about affording life, you need to make at least $10 an hour at a 40 hour week, have zero debt and be willing to get up, go to work, come home, do nothing, go to bed, get up and do it all over again, day after day and you're likely working half if not all of the weekend as well. My girlfriend has a job making $8.50 an hour. But she works 10 hour days Monday through Thursday, 9 hours on Sunday and usually picks up 4-8 hours of overtime on Fridays. She makes up that $1.50 an hour deficit by over-working. That's what she needs to do to be able to pay her bills and she didn't have anything outrageous. Rent for $755 a month, electric bill of about $120 a month, car insurance is $128 a month, $60 for a phone bill (cellphone only, long distance plan, no land line), $45 for basic cable and about $100 a month for food. That's $1,208 a month and with a maximum of $1938 before taxes, at a 30% tax rate, her total take home is $1358. That means that on her good months, she gets $150 of extra cash. Actually less because I didn't factor in her gas for her car and commute. Some months she's dipping in to what little savings she has. Other months, she's "flush with cash" at a whopping $50. 50 years ago, $50 was a pile of money. Now, it won't fill the tank in most cars. No wonder she was happy to move in with me.

So yeah, I agree with you and I was merely trying to illustrate the disparity between then and now with real world examples.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I was just pointing out that they also don't have the resources to develop a modern pre-pro, that's all.

And you are basing that on the singular pre-amp project they scrapped? Or do you have other proof they don't have any resources to develop a modern pre-pro?

H9

headrott

I like bananas. Especially when they have just turned fully yellow.Yum. So nice.

Oh, I found this thread amusing as well.

Greg

bobman1235

Jstas wrote: »

Dude...seriously. I wasn't saying to do that now. The common statements made by those who "moved out at 18" are from a time when it wasn't unheard of and actually quite an accepted thing to do to have a family and kids by the time you were 22-23. You're needless rant only furthers the proof that it's really not only ill-advised to do such things now but pretty much unpossible.

I was merely illustrating the disparities between now and 30, 40, 50 or even 60 years ago when any kid, fresh out of high school, could find a job making something, assembling something, catching something, growing something or selling something for commission and make a decent, living wage. You can't do that now.

You want to repair anything you have to go to school because stuff is so advanced and complicated anymore that any schmuck with a set of wrenches can't really do a decent repair anymore. It's rough, dude. It's real rough. It's been this way for a long time.

When I graduated high school in the mid-90's my grandparents were actually ticked off because I chose to go to college instead of learn a trade or just get a job in a factory somewhere. My dad asked my grandmother "What factories? The one you retired from was torn down 3 years ago for a WAL*MART and the one Stan (my grandfather) worked at is now a Fed Ex freight depot." They said I should learn a trade but my cousin, who knows a trade (he's a mason and tilesetter) was out of work for 8 months at the time because it was right in the middle of that mid-90's recession and the new home construction was down 33%. That was almost 20 years ago and aside from the 4-5 years there during the housing bubble, it's only gotten worse.

You can't do it now. To just be able to live life without worrying about affording life, you need to make at least $10 an hour at a 40 hour week, have zero debt and be willing to get up, go to work, come home, do nothing, go to bed, get up and do it all over again, day after day and you're likely working half if not all of the weekend as well. My girlfriend has a job making $8.50 an hour. But she works 10 hour days Monday through Thursday, 9 hours on Sunday and usually picks up 4-8 hours of overtime on Fridays. She makes up that $1.50 an hour deficit by over-working. That's what she needs to do to be able to pay her bills and she didn't have anything outrageous. Rent for $755 a month, electric bill of about $120 a month, car insurance is $128 a month, $60 for a phone bill (cellphone only, long distance plan, no land line), $45 for basic cable and about $100 a month for food. That's $1,208 a month and with a maximum of $1938 before taxes, at a 30% tax rate, her total take home is $1358. That means that on her good months, she gets $150 of extra cash. Actually less because I didn't factor in her gas for her car and commute. Some months she's dipping in to what little savings she has. Other months, she's "flush with cash" at a whopping $50. 50 years ago, $50 was a pile of money. Now, it won't fill the tank in most cars. No wonder she was happy to move in with me.

So yeah, I agree with you and I was merely trying to illustrate the disparity between then and now with real world examples.

I like how the response to my "needless rant" is something 3x longer.

Jstas

bobman1235 wrote: »

I like how the response to my "needless rant" is something 3x longer.

It was needless because you were disagreeing with something you agree with.

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

Last time I checked Parasound was a pretty "mainstream" company and I would expect them to follow the same business model as a Yamaha, Onk or Pioneer.

Only mainstream brands like Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. seem to manufacture their own products. And even they farm some of it out.

Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, HAVE THEIR OWN MANUFACTURING FACILITIES. They actually make the products they sell, Parasound does not. Has nothing to do with where it's made. Get it yet?

You can't think every one of Yam, Onk, Pio products is 100% developed from the ground up without borrowing either, that's silly.

See the bolded section above.

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

And you are basing that on the singular pre-amp project they scrapped? Or do you have other proof they don't have any resources to develop a modern pre-pro?

H9

I'm basing it on the founder of Parasound's own statement, in the press release above.

The investment required to develop a unique HDMI-equipped surround platform in-house can reach $1 million. Small and mid-size specialty audio companies can rarely recoup this huge expenditure and some companies have collapsed under the financial burden of attempting to design their own surround platform. A prime example is TAG McLaren in the UK, which
developed their own platform and subsequently shut down because they could not sell enough processors to justify the expense, and that was before the complications and continuously changing technology of HDMI.


Small to medium size audio companies must therefore base their surround processors on core signal processing and video engines developed by outside sources and then customize them for their own requirements. Parasound had such an arrangement with several Finnish companies dating back to 1997.

heiney9

So who assembles Parasound? So you are saying they don't even design their own products? Or they design their own products just consign someone else to assemble them? Who cares who assembles what? Just because the other 3 manufacture their own product doesn't mean they have a superior product.

I guess I just don't get your point beyond the single article about the Parasound pre-pro that got scrapped. If a company designs products from the ground up and has someone else manufacture it are they a lesser company than one that designs and manufactures their own products? That's the only reasonable deduction I can make of all this.

And please don't repeat that Parasound was borrowing the design of the pre-pro, I get that. They didn't and don't do that with all their products. I'd like to know what High End audio companies don't manufacture their own gear as you stated in another post.

Why are you hung up on where it's made?

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I'm basing it on the founder of Parasound's own statement, in the press release above.

That is ONE stinking product, so you can deduce that all Parasound past and present was made by someone else???? That's absurd if you think that. Simply absurd and you are uniformed.

I get that the one pre-amp project they outsourced. I get IT....i GET IT. I read IT, I see IT....it's actually old news.

So the JC1 was not their design and John Curl is just a figure head for Parasound and never designed anything because all their gear is developed by other companies they hire.

H9

Jstas

Rick88 wrote: »

Good grief, what I don't get is why these type of threads get the most views and responses around here these days...

The drama, man. The drama.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, HAVE THEIR OWN MANUFACTURING FACILITIES. They actually make the products they sell, Parasound does not. Has nothing to do with where it's made. Get it yet?

So what, that doesn't equate to a better product. So you are essentially saying all Parasound products are just contracted out to whoever to design, develope and manufacture and Parasound just puts their name on it?

If that's not what you are saying, then who cares who does the final assembly of the product. Doesn't make it any less a Parasound product unless they are farming out the design and development part.

When I pruchase Parasound, I'm not buying it becasue they assemble it. I'm buying it beacuse they designed and developed the product. I could care less where it's assembled, unless that assembly causes the product to fail or be inferior compared to what's on the market.

H9

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

That is ONE stinking product, so you can deduce that all Parasound past and present was made by someone else????

It was three products, learn to read.

I get that the one pre-amp project they outsourced. I get IT....i GET IT. I read IT, I see IT....it's actually old news.

It was three pre-amps. And if it's old news, why did you ask if I had any proof?

Why are you hung up on where it's made?

As I've stated, at least twice now, it has nothing to do with where it's made. I'm not sure why you are getting so upset yourself. I actually like Parasound.

heiney9

3 pre-amps in 20+ years of existence...........damn that's horrible business practices.

I asked if you had any other proof beyond that article, as in for other products past or present.........apparently not.

I don't really care for most Parasound products, not my cup of tea. I just didn't like the logic that since these 3 recent pre's were contracted out, that all of Parasound products must be contracted out past and present. And that simply isn't true.

You still haven't answered my questions, but I'm done because it really doesn't matter.

H9

polkfarmboy

Whats all this gotta do with my banana not fitting in a tight hole

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

3 pre-amps in 20+ years of existence...........damn that's horrible business practices.

I asked if you had any other proof beyond that article, as in for other products past or present.........apparently not.

You really do need to learn to read. And that wasn't an article, it was a statement from the company founder, sorry that's not enough for you.

Small to medium size audio companies must therefore base their surround processors on core signal processing and video engines developed by outside sources and then customize them for their own requirements. Parasound had such an arrangement with several Finnish companies dating back to 1997.

Seems to indicate they have done it in the past.

heiney9

I can certainly see using already standardized video and audio processing for HT. It's like using a Burr Brown dac or Farudja video chip, etc. Who would develop their own chipsets like this rather than purchase ready made solutions which in most cases are probably far better suited to the task anyway.

I am a hard core 2ch guy and I literally know nothing about the internal workings for any type of AV processor, etc. But I know enough about the industry in general to know stuff like what's eluded to here in this snippet: Small to medium size audio companies must therefore base their surround processors on core signal processing and video engines developed by outside sources and then customize them for their own requirements. is standard practice for ALL manufacturer's. I can guarantee Pio, ONK, and Yam do exactly the same thing when it comes to these core issues. No way would these companies R & D something they could already buy and implement into their design.

I would guarantee the core video signal processing and core audio signal processing in the ONK, PIO, and YAM are all purchased from outside vendors to one degree or another.

So again I don't get your point. So the other 3 actually purchase the parts and assemble them under one roof, rather than purchasing and having someone else assemble. It's the same damn thing.

H9

Habanero Monk

heiney9 wrote: »

And you are basing that on the singular pre-amp project they scrapped? Or do you have other proof they don't have any resources to develop a modern pre-pro?

H9

I have to ask. If Parasound had the ability to make a modern pre-pro (HT?) wouldn't they have already? I'm not sure how many companies keep talent around that long for designing something like my receiver with out putting that talent to their latent abilities.

I can only think of few reasons why not. That is they have ceded the market (for now?) so market conditions. They simply don't have the in house talent. They simply haven't found an OEM design that they can depend on (?).

Is is safe to assume there is a difference between a pre-pro with HDMI/HDCP/PAP/Video up-conversion/room correction etc and a stereo pre-pro? All I know is when my TV starts flashing back to blue I have to reset it or my receiver. Someone said it was a handshake issue.

heiney9

Habanero Monk wrote: »

I have to ask. If Parasound had the ability to make a modern pre-pro (HT?) wouldn't they have already? I'm not sure how many companies keep talent around that long for designing something like my receiver with out putting that talent to their latent abilities.

I can only think of few reasons why not. That is they have ceded the market (for now?) so market conditions. They simply don't have the in house talent. They simply haven't found an OEM design that they can depend on (?).

Is is safe to assume there is a difference between a pre-pro with HDMI/HDCP/PAP/Video up-conversion/room correction etc and a stereo pre-pro? All I know is when my TV starts flashing back to blue I have to reset it or my receiver. Someone said it was a handshake issue.

If this is specifically directed to me, this is from my previous post.

I am a hard core 2ch guy and I literally know nothing about the internal workings for any type of AV processor, etc.

I haven't kept up on HT offerings or progress since it's not where my interest lies, so I can't say beyond what I stated about the industry in general.

Perhaps other can comment.

Habanero Monk

heiney9 wrote: »

If this is specifically directed to me, this is from my previous post.

I am a hard core 2ch guy and I literally know nothing about the internal workings for any type of AV processor, etc.

You had asked:

do you have other proof they don't have any resources to develop a modern pre-pro?

I was just wondering if the lack of a modern pre-pro (HT?) is proof or not. It does not mean they cannot hire said talent in the future. I guess it is akin to crap or get off the pot. I don't know of a dedicated two channel pre-pro that has HDMI out for audio (if that is what is meant by modern). I just use a receiver to my amps.

I mainly listen to two channel also.

maxima

PFB,
What Emotiva amp do you own?
Eric

polkfarmboy

maxima wrote: »

PFB,
What Emotiva amp do you own?
Eric

Its a upa5 and emotiva does not carry the binding posts for that amp anymore they told me so its gotta go in .If not I think I void the warranty by doing the work myself but that would be fine if I planned on keeping it forever

inspiredsports

Jstas wrote: »

. . . yeah, I can see why kids are staying at home longer . . .

. . . and carelessly breaking things like binding posts longer

Systems

Jstas wrote: »

I wonder how many of those who claim to "live on the Bayou" actually live on the Bayou and not in some cookie cutter development with a large runoff pond that has a gator in it surviving off of small pets and Nutria?

..Well come down here and see for yourself..I am sure Bayou Rick would love too have some of you guys for supper.And show off his really nice system..Then he can take you guys for a ride in his air boat so you can pet the Gator's..:biggrin:

Systems

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Whats all this gotta do with my banana not fitting in a tight hole

....LMAO...oh man!...HI-5!