The Dared SL 2000 modification thread

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  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited October 2011
    One last word of encouragement to get one of those Tungsram (England) rectifiers. The bass is simply monsterous coming from it. It's hard to explain because the bass isn't overdoen or sloppy, it's JUST huge and tactile. The best way to describe it is with this rectifier think John Bonham bass drum sound vs. a regular rectifier everyone else's bass drum sound. It's really HUGE but never fake or boomy or artificial. I really think it edges out the Brimar a little bit, or perhaps just as good only in a slightly different way.

    I wish work would slow down, I'm back here again for a few hours trying to catch up, we are soooooooo busy. Because I got my spikes and I have Larry's rings and some dynamt and I want to get that part of my 1C's done finally. But I just don't have the time at the moment.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • george danielgeorge daniel Posts: 11,992
    edited October 2011
    I think so--20 bucks for a pair--shoot it to me again if you would please.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 14,249
    edited October 2011
    Brock I ordered some tube dampers from herbie's I will let you know how they work out. they do sound good but I also found that I can tap on my rack and it picks up the sound. it is from the 12AT7's as the rectifier tube with the stock tubes I don't have the problem..
  • george danielgeorge daniel Posts: 11,992
    edited October 2011
    Larry-- after I did the cap swap in mine,,I could hear the volume control motor thru my speakers,,turns out it was the Syl long BP's,,I used some tube dampers and it improved somewhat.Rolled in another pair,,no more issues.According to Brock,, the long plates,,in my case(Sylvania Long Blackplates) tend to be somewhat microphonic.Since then I've not had any issues,good luck with yours.

    Mike-- what do you have in yours presently?
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited October 2011
    Brock I ordered some tube dampers from herbie's I will let you know how they work out. they do sound good but I also found that I can tap on my rack and it picks up the sound. it is from the 12AT7's as the rectifier tube with the stock tubes I don't have the problem..

    Larry, this happens with the long plate tubes. I guess it just doesn't bother me because 1) I don't tap on my rack or the pre-amp chassis 2) I'm just used to the long plate tubes having this issue to one degree or another. Tube dampers help, but it won't eliminate all the noise if you rap on the chassis or your rack. I have never had an issue when listening to music. These long plate tubes sound really good so I am willing to deal with them being a little tempramental at times.

    When you recieve the dampers if you are still uneasy about how the tubes perform I can take them back or I think I have a similar extra pair of 6201's I can send you. I guess I never thought about this issue because for me it's really a non-issue. But, if in the end you feel you can't live with it, I competely understand and I'll get it squared away however you want.

    FYI, I've never heard of a rectifer being microphonic. Despite the issue how are you liking the tubes? How about that rectifier? That's a really great sounding rectifer and Bendix stuff is built to survive a nuclear blast.

    H9

    P.s. I am currently using a pair of 1959 GE 6829 5 Star 3 mica long plates that sound really great, but I have to have to sets of dampers on them and I can still hear some ringing when I tap the chassis. No issues I can tell when playing.

    P.s.s. A typical 12AT7 tube won't have these issues because they are small wing type plates, so don't think this is an issue with the Dared or the type of STOCK tubes it uses because it's not. It's simply the long plate variants that can have the issue.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited October 2011
    it is from the 12AT7's as the rectifier tube with the stock tubes I don't have the problem..

    Just to be 100% crystal clear, the tubes I sent you aren't 12AT7's they are 5965's a lower gain, longer plate variant that can be used in place of the stock 12AT7's. Typical 12AT7's aren't microphonic because the plates are much smaller and usually "wing" type, as in they look like a minature airplane wing.

    Just want to be clear on the terminology so we are all on the same page. :smile:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 14,249
    edited October 2011
    My Telefunken 5965's and Bugleboy 12AT7's from Brent Jessee showed up today!!!! I have the TFKN's in right now and I am very happy with them so far!!!!

    I think I have a nice few sets to roll in for awhile!!!

    Guess it's time to let the Dodd go to a new home now!!!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited October 2011
    Check those TFK's because mine are new and slightly microphonic. It's the nature of long plates. You should LOVE those tubes, well I have rolled a lot and those are my favorite by a lot.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited October 2011
    Check those TFK's because mine are new and slightly microphonic. It's the nature of long plates. You should LOVE those tubes, well I have rolled a lot and those are my favorite by a lot.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • falconcry72falconcry72 Posts: 3,584
    edited October 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Check those TFK's because mine are new and slightly microphonic. It's the nature of long plates. You should LOVE those tubes, well I have rolled a lot and those are my favorite by a lot.

    H9

    I'm new to tubes but learning quickly.

    What is "slightly" microphonic?

    I have some 1960's Amperex 6922's that I think are "slightly" microphonic, but then again I don't really know what "majorly" microphonic is. :redface:

    With the preamp on, but no music playing, no noise at all comes through the speakers. If I tap on the preamp, even lightly, I can hear noise come through the speaker(s) that coincides with my tapping, but then it's back to silence.

    I'm inferring that a "majorly" microphonic tube would just make noise all the time.

    BTW they sound GREAT with music playing.


    Am I correct in my microphonic assumptions??? (where's that damn question mark smily...)

    Thanks,


    Ben
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

    Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses

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  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 14,249
    edited October 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Check those TFK's because mine are new and slightly microphonic. It's the nature of long plates. You should LOVE those tubes, well I have rolled a lot and those are my favorite by a lot.

    H9

    No microphonic's here!!! They sound amazing!!! well there is a slight noise with the volume down and no music playing but I have that with all tubes I have played with..
  • StewStew Posts: 646
    edited October 2011
    The input caps (2) are 0.22uf and the output caps are (4) 1.0uf caps. The output caps have two caps per channel in series with a feedback connection between the first and second cap.

    This may be a dumb question but would it work to replace the first of the two series output capacitors with a 0.5 ohm value and eliminate the second capacitor? This would put the feedback connection at the output rather than between two capacitors. I'm guessing there's a good reason why they connected it this way but on the chance they just had a lot of 1.0 uf caps on hand .....
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
    Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans

    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
  • StewStew Posts: 646
    edited October 2011
    make that a 0.5 uf value.
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
    Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans

    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
  • Outfitter03Outfitter03 Posts: 563
    edited October 2011
    Output Capacitors are used to block DC between components such as from the Dared Preamp to an amplifier. Only works if it is the last component in the signal path chain.
  • StewStew Posts: 646
    edited October 2011
    Thanks Outfitter. I was trying to understand why both caps are needed. I assume the first one keeps DC out of the feedback loop and the second one keeps any DC from the feedback loop out of the signal to the amp. Just wishful thinking that 2 would fit easier than 4.
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
    Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans

    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
  • jessie52jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited October 2011
    Just loved the sound of the RCA 12AT7 black plates on my Dared Sl-2000A.
  • napnap Moderator Posts: 1,319
    edited November 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    Amperex, Siemens, Telefunken, Valvo, etc. (ECC81) are the best of the best, generally, but be prepared to spend more on the European tubes. I just won snow's karma for some Siemens ECC801S that I'm really looking forward to trying. This variant is said to be the cream of the crop for the 12AT7 types. Siemens and Teles being the best for this tube. Use this link as a guideline.

    http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm

    Have fun rolling, bro. :wink:

    After reading the info and descriptions here I sprung for a pair of ECC81 Mullard's off of Ebay.
    Anxious to try others. Does anyone have experience with the Ebay sellers in Germany or Turkey ????
    Had to pick somewhere to start out so........ :cool:
  • napnap Moderator Posts: 1,319
    edited November 2011
    Mike - Got it. Definitely more reading in order. Thanks. :cool:
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    nap wrote: »
    After reading the info and descriptions here I sprung for a pair of ECC81 Mullard's off of Ebay.
    Anxious to try others. Does anyone have experience with the Ebay sellers in Germany or Turkey ????
    Had to pick somewhere to start out so........ :cool:

    Which ones in Turkey or Germany?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    Hey Nap, let me check my stash I may have a pair of wonderful Valvo Hamburg tubes I'd be willing to sell. I need to thin the herd a little bit as I went a little crazy buying certain tubes. Let me check this evening. Let me know if you are interested.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • napnap Moderator Posts: 1,319
    edited November 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    Tony, did you get the Brimar yet?

    Yes, it came rather quickly from the UK (very impressed by this). Haven't done any listening yet as I wanted to have a replacement option in place for the stock tubes that came with the pre amp. I am waiting for the Mullard's to show up.
    Cheers. :cool:
  • napnap Moderator Posts: 1,319
    edited November 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hey Nap, let me check my stash I may have a pair of wonderful Valvo Hamburg tubes I'd be willing to sell. I need to thin the herd a little bit as I went a little crazy buying certain tubes. Let me check this evening. Let me know if you are interested.

    H9

    Sure, let me know what you have. Send me a PM, Thanks. :cool:
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    The early Brimar is the winner here for rectification, IMO. I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a 1959 Mullard GZ30 for comparison. Nap, which Mullards did you get? The later Mullard CV's are not all that hot. I can't believe you haven't hooked her up yet. :lol:
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    $15.95 plus $8 shipping from the U.K. I am guessing the date based on the tube code, logos and writing on the tube. Not a lot of solid info out there on the Mullard GZ30/5Z4GT. It has an early Mullard sheild logo, a BVA stamp, and says "British Made" on it. All lead me to believe it's an earlier tube than what's typically seen. The tube code puts it at 1956 or 1966. 56 seems a bit early and 66 seems too late based on the markings. I figure for less than $25 it was worth a shot and should be a good rectifier even if it turns out to be later than I suspect.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    AFAICT,

    "British Made" appears on mid-late 50's tubes
    "Made In Great Britain" started showing up in the early 60's
    "Gt. Britain" started showing up in the late 60's early 70's

    Actually if the acid code is to be believed these are probably from 1956.

    6H1
    B6K

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,165
    edited November 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Actually if the acid code is to be believed these are probably from 1956.

    6H1
    B6K

    H9

    No way that H9 code is from the '50's. More like the '70's, I'm thinkin.
    :cheesygrin:
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  • audio_alanaudio_alan Posts: 770
    edited November 2011
    Hey Larry, Mike, Brock and everyone else. It's been a while since I've been on the forums. I hope everyone is doing well!

    I noticed one of you guys mentioned a new rectifier, the "5Z4G TUNGSRAM". What are you guys thinking of that one now? Any better (or different in a good way) than a vintage Brimar? Just wondering if I should pick one up...

    I'm still running an old Brimar rectifier with a nice set of Valvo signal tubes (or sometimes long-plate Sylvanias or other signal tubes for a change). I had a guy over the other night that hadn't heard my setup yet, and just had some low background music going from my PS3 (running through my surround sound setup). After a while he commented on the sound from my SDA-SRS's. *** Cue show-off time *** I said, "You haven't heard anything yet!". I proceeded to fire up my 2 channel rig with the Dared and let it warm up for about 30 minutes. Then I cranked up a few tunes and he said, and I quote, "Wow, thanks for the outer body experience!" :cheesygrin: Yep, I'm still diggin the Dared!

    Larry - How's the tube rollin going? Sounds like you got some Tele's, nice! I still haven't ponied up the money for a set of those yet. If you're interested, we could get together and do some tube rollin sometime. It's probably nothing compared to Brock's stash, but I built up a moderate sized stash of rectifiers and varying signal tubes. However, if you have a nice rectifier with those Tele's, you're probably already in music nirvana!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,112
    edited November 2011
    Alan check the FM I am selling a small part of my stash :mrgreen:

    Congrats on the enjoyment. I also will be selling a couple really old Brimar rectifiers shortly.

    Enjoy.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • audio_alanaudio_alan Posts: 770
    edited November 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Alan check the FM I am selling a small part of my stash :mrgreen:

    Congrats on the enjoyment. I also will be selling a couple really old Brimar rectifiers shortly.

    Enjoy.

    H9

    H9 - Thanks for the offer, and I'll take a look, but I think I'm out of the market for more tubes at the moment (famous last words, right?!). I'm spending too much money on building my man cave right now...

    On another note, is there a verdict on which upgraded Caps made the most difference in the Dared? Was it worth it?

    Alan
  • george danielgeorge daniel Posts: 11,992
    edited November 2011
    Was it worth it,, for me yes,,but thats what I do,,, I used Teflon's(Big A$$ Russian) on the inputs and Obligatto's on the output,IMHO,,they took it to another level,midrange bloominess etc,,,not alot of real estate to work with,,,so if you are fainthearted you might not want to perform this mod--just my .02 worth.Good luck.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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