The Dared SL 2000 modification thread

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2011
    George if you are using the 5965's it could be the tubes. For some reason the longer plate tubes tend to be slightly microphonic even though the construction is such that they should be more rugged.

    Try a regular pair of 12AT7's/ECC81's (with smaller plates) and see if it still happens.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2011
    ok will do.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    George if you are using the 5965's it could be the tubes. For some reason the longer plate tubes tend to be slightly microphonic even though the construction is such that they should be more rugged.

    Try a regular pair of 12AT7's/ECC81's (with smaller plates) and see if it still happens.

    H9

    Brock-- you are da man--I popped in the pair of Sylvania's that you sent me--all is well--now I'm concerned about how quickly those 5965's went microphonic so fast---oh well,,now I can button this puppy back up.One final shot
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Brock-- you are da man--I popped in the pair of Sylvania's that you sent me--all is well--now I'm concerned about how quickly those 5965's went microphonic so fast---oh well,,now I can button this puppy back up.One final shot

    I admit George the 5965's can be a little troublesome, but because they sound so sweet I just use tube dampers and try not to "rap" on the chassis. The TFK 5965's do the same thing and I've had some 7062's do the same thing. All minor, but puzzling. The Raytheon 6414 3-mica black plates don't have the issue. All the above are long plate versions similar to each other construction-wise.

    The only long plate tube I can't use becasuse the microphonics can't be tamed are the GE 5 Star 6829 3-mica. Still trying to figure a way to use those.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited July 2011
    George you should offer your skills for money and maybe modify other members tube amps .......... did I mention I had a yaqin mc10l lol
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2011
    Thanks for the kind words--I'm just an amateur--folks like F1,Scomp, and Face are the big dogs.:wink:

    Oops-- and FGTV--these guys know electronics/speakers,,I just try to follow their lead/advice.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited July 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Thanks for the kind words--I'm just an amateur--folks like F1,Scomp, and Face are the big dogs.:wink:

    Oops-- and FGTV--these guys know electronics/speakers,,I just try to follow their lead/advice.

    I think F1 would like to strangle the life outa me and put pieces of mirrors in the eyes of my corpse so I'm outa luck for a mod with him :biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2011
    polkfarmboy wrote: »
    I think F1 would like to strangle the life outa me and put pieces of mirrors in the eyes of my corpse so I'm outa luck for a mod with him :biggrin:

    Atleast you know where you stand, that's half the battle.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2011
    A nice glow
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • drselect
    drselect Posts: 664
    edited July 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    A nice glow
    Nothing like tube ****.:biggrin:

    Looking good George.
    What you listen to?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited August 2011
    Hey George, how's the little Dared performing these days now that you have put some hours on the caps? Just curious if you are still as enamoured with it now as you were when you got it.

    Hit me up for some more tubes if you feel like it. I bought a quad of RCA 5965's and I just pulled the trigger on a quad of GE -5 Star long plate 5965's. I don't mind sharing if you are interested. If not, they will stay in my stash :tongue:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited August 2011
    I might just hit you up for more tubes sir,,tell you the truth,I have not listened to it for awhile--I'll get my ears on it this weekend,,it will be going to PF with me.:smile:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited August 2011
    George, how does the Dared compared to the wright?
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited August 2011
    thsmith wrote: »
    George, how does the Dared compared to the wright?

    Man,, good question,,,I've had to think about this one--the Dared is quicker than the Wright,,given the difference in tubes--I'd say the Wright has a wee tad more bloom,but not by much,,and that is based upon tube preference and the fact that I have nor done too much rolling in the Dared yet--really a very close call between the two,,of course,,that's just my rookie opinion.:smile:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited August 2011
    I'll add my .02c, the Dared is very tube rolling friendly. I am amazed at the subtle differences I notice depending on what tube and rectifier combo I'm using.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited August 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Man,, good question,,,I've had to think about this one--the Dared is quicker than the Wright,,given the difference in tubes--I'd say the Wright has a wee tad more bloom,but not by much,,and that is based upon tube preference and the fact that I have nor done too much rolling in the Dared yet--really a very close call between the two,,of course,,that's just my rookie opinion.:smile:

    Thanks George, I will be watching with great interest.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited August 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Man,, good question,,,I've had to think about this one--the Dared is quicker than the Wright,,given the difference in tubes--I'd say the Wright has a wee tad more bloom,but not by much,,and that is based upon tube preference and the fact that I have nor done too much rolling in the Dared yet--really a very close call between the two,,of course,,that's just my rookie opinion.:smile:

    Thanks George, I will be watching with great interest.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited August 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hey George, how's the little Dared performing these days now that you have put some hours on the caps? Just curious if you are still as enamoured with it now as you were when you got it.

    Hit me up for some more tubes if you feel like it. I bought a quad of RCA 5965's and I just pulled the trigger on a quad of GE -5 Star long plate 5965's. I don't mind sharing if you are interested. If not, they will stay in my stash :tongue:

    H9

    See,, thats why --Mr Brock has cornered the tube market--:tongue:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited August 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    See,, thats why --Mr Brock has cornered the tube market--:tongue:

    It's a disease George, a real big disease. A pleasurable disease, however :biggrin:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    First of all,,a little entertainment--I was fortunate and got to see him and this band just recently,,here's a ten and a half minute taste.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yowJiQZBXrA


    Lets start with tubes. Currently running a Bendix 6106 rectifier and a pair of Sylvania 5965's I'm hoping that Brock,KiekoFGTV and others will chime in,as they have far more experience with tube rolling/schematics in this unit.I have the schematic's and can e-mail them to anyone who needs a set.First and foremost,this thread should be fun,and tube rolling is the easiest,but can get expensive.In the pic's you'll see where I remover the input caps,and replaced them with .22 400 volt Russian PIO(wrapped in black tape-IIRC the case is conductive)They are too big for the board,so I mounted them on the inside chassis,and ran wire from the board to the caps.I think a good cap in this position would be an Auricap and/or Sonicap and a good vintage PIO.

    One thing that I noticed,,the Sylvania plates are offset.

    Does the Dared SL-2000A have 4 .22uf caps? What is your take on Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil as replacement caps?
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    The sound of the Dared SL-2000A with the stock caps is already awesome, just by changing the stock tubes. I wonder if upgrading the caps would make much difference still.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    Does the Dared SL-2000A have 4 .22uf caps? What is your take on Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil as replacement caps?

    You would have to mount the Mundorf's "outside" the unit as there is not much real estate inside.Obligatto's or Auricaps play nice with the unit,,and tube rolling in a stock unit will get you 90% of the way.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    Thanks George. Are the 4 caps .22uf?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited September 2011
    Don't forget how much the rectifier adds to the sound. The stock Chinese and Sovtek aren't that great at all. A Bendix 6106 or Brimar CV1863 (5Z4G equivalent) are superb with some of the older 5Y3's being a step up from the Chinese and Sovtek rectifiers.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Outfitter03
    Outfitter03 Posts: 563
    edited September 2011
    The input caps (2) are 0.22uf and the output caps are (4) 1.0uf caps. The output caps have two caps per channel in series with a feedback connection between the first and second cap.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    Does the Dared SL-2000A have 4 .22uf caps? What is your take on Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil as replacement caps?

    Which coupling caps are you talking about? Input or Output? George replaced both on his unit.

    (2) .22uF 400v input caps. Some units come stock with Auricaps in that position and you'd be hard pressed to find another cap that sounds as good w/o spending a whole lot more money

    (4) 1uF 400v output caps (Yellow square Carli caps)

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1598614&postcount=73

    Here is a photo of mine and the last pic in this post shows the (2) Auricap input caps and then the (4) Yellow "square" Carli caps for output caps
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited September 2011
    Hey George or anyone else,

    I was thinking of possibly using (4) of these for the output coupling caps replacing the (4) square yellow Carli 1uF 400v caps.

    Anyone use these before, thoughts?

    http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_rxf.html

    George if you still have the old yellow caps out would you mind doing a quick measure of them physically?

    Thanks

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Which coupling caps are you talking about? Input or Output? George replaced both on his unit.

    (2) .22uF 400v input caps. Some units come stock with Auricaps in that position and you'd be hard pressed to find another cap that sounds as good w/o spending a whole lot more money

    (4) 1uF 400v output caps (Yellow square Carli caps)

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1598614&postcount=73

    Here is a photo of mine and the last pic in this post shows the (2) Auricap input caps and then the (4) Yellow "square" Carli caps for output caps
    Both input and output caps. Might as well replace both.
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    Both input and output caps. Might as well replace both.
    Oh those yellow ones are output caps. Are they the stock caps? Are they good enough? Perhaps I'll just replace the input caps since they are not Auricaps. Replace these with Mundorf Supremes.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,220
    edited September 2011
    So are there two versions of this preamp?? A USA version??
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