How many listen to 2 channel music with their sub on?
Comments
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Subs? We don't need no stinkin' subs. :biggrin:
+1000.
I don't use nor do I need one even for the office rig.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
2 channel...no
MCH...yes (the .1 channel is there for a reason
)
Combo rig:
Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
PB13Ultra RO
BW Silvers
Oppo BDP-83SE -
I have always used my sub with music. It's just like a seperate amp, until you add one in, you have no idea what you are not hearing. Once you add one, it's hard to go back to being subless.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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Sub is usually on. My system is properly calibrated with EQ for the low end. I can place my sub more properly than I can with the front speakers with respect for imaging. Without a sub, you would have to compromise imaging for flat bass response in regards to placement. Usually you can't have both uncompromised bass response and imaging.
I roll the speakers off around 55hz to the subs which blend in seemlessly. I have 12" woofers on my speakers but I still choose to run a sub, because subs IMO do the bass better especially with EQ. Flat to 16hz.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
For those using a sub, where are you crossing them over at? (I see one states 55hz ) Are you taking advantage of the full range of your two front speakers or using the sub to handle bass like you would in a home theater scenario?
If I am way off, let me know? thanks -
Every scenario is different because every room is different. Also, most all systems are different with a plethora of things that must be considered. That said, what works for me may not work for you. I would consider the most common crossover starting point on this forum being 80hz. From that, the crossover points vary widely and are system and room dependent.
As far as taking advantage of the full range of the speakers? No. The Velodyne SMS-1 is a sub woofer management system that takes both of the mains and the sub, blends them both and matches all of them to the room once the location of the sub is maximized. It manages the frequencies within a specific lower register range and manages just that. You can adjust frequencies, slope and a myriad of other things to make the optimal sound within your domain and it does adjust/omit/change the mains. At least on every speaker I have used it on.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Every scenario is different because every room is different. Also, most all systems are different with a plethora of things that must be considered. That said, what works for me may not work for you. I would consider the most common crossover starting point on this forum being 80hz. From that, the crossover points vary widely and are system and room dependent.
As far as taking advantage of the full range of the speakers? No. The Velodyne SMS-1 is a sub woofer management system that takes both of the mains and the sub, blends them both and matches all of them to the room once the location of the sub is maximized. It manages the frequencies within a specific lower register range and manages just that. You can adjust frequencies, slope and a myriad of other things to make the optimal sound within your domain and it does adjust/omit/change the mains. At least on every speaker I have used it on.
got it, I realize that each room is differenct and such, thanks for the info. For Home Theater I cross all of them at 80. I may mess around with the sub and the fronts on the weekend to see if it sounds better then what I have now. -
The sub is always on! I listen to alot of electronic (techno, electronica, darkwave, etc) based music and really like the extra low end that the monitor 70s just cant do by themselves. I set the crossover at 60hz and the sub picks up the rest.
The 70s do sound great without the sub, but I prefer a little exaggeration on the lows. -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »What Sub???Subs? We don't need no stinkin' subs. :biggrin:
Agreed %10000000000000
Subs are for women.
“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” ~ Mark Twain -
I sub-stitute my 1.2tl's for my 1C's now and then...:biggrin:Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
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VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM
MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s -
No sub here in my 2CH.
HT - Yes.Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
NORTH of 60° -
Yep, the sub is always on when listening to music.
I run my speakers full range and cross the sub at 40hz, so it's just to fill in the really low/deep music information. In addition I use a sub eq which helps keep the sub tight and well blended. I keep the volume low so that you don't even know it's on. I find that my Fathom sub makes the music sound more solid and the bottom end has more "air" to it. This is especially true in live rock recordings... they sound more realistic with a sub. -
No sub for 2-channel music here.
I do love a big, huge sub despite my vote! -
Absolutely!!! With my Antimode 8033 running shot over my twin Velo SPL-1200R subs & my LSi15's crossover point at 80...man oh man it is sonic heaven. It's a shame a lot of guys just think that a sub is only for the really low end for 2 channel. It couldn't be further from the truth. There's a whole lot of music "feel" so to speak that you're missing out on. Old habits are hard to break I guess."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I use a sub in the 2 rig when the Maggies are in the setup. All but the biggest Maggies need a sub IMO. No sub with the CRS+'s or the LSi9's.
Always for HT."The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson. -
I have SRS 2's in my 2 channel rig. My Paradigm sub adds nothing to the bottom end so I don't use it.2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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I don't even own a sub.
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There are some factors to answering this question and why one would or would not use a sub when listening to music.
Personally I always use a sub when listening to music. Years ago I would turn it off and on and try to get a "PURE" audio sound from my speakers only. This way of thinking is very old school and doesn't hold any water if you are trying to re create what is on the disc or recording.
With all that being said some may own subs that call attention to themselves. Reasons could be bad placement , poor calibration or just a boomy messy **** crappy waste of money over sized junky so called subwoofer.
If you own a sub and love music and it doesn't blend in perfectly with your main speakers then you purchased the wrong sub my friend.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I agree with Mantis on this. I have a Paradigm 15" sub that is calibrated with Audyssey. It does not stand out at all and blends beautifully with the other speakers. Honestly, even without the Audyssey it blended well. As Mantis said, a quality subwoofer is needed.There are some factors to answering this question and why one would or would not use a sub when listening to music.
Personally I always use a sub when listening to music. Years ago I would turn it off and on and try to get a "PURE" audio sound from my speakers only. This way of thinking is very old school and doesn't hold any water if you are trying to re create what is on the disc or recording.
With all that being said some may own subs that call attention to themselves. Reasons could be bad placement , poor calibration or just a boomy messy **** crappy waste of money over sized junky so called subwoofer.
If you own a sub and love music and it doesn't blend in perfectly with your main speakers then you purchased the wrong sub my friend. -
For me duals are the way to go. They blend very well with my mains.
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Even when watching HT I don't want anyone to notice I have a sub. People never do unless I tell them.Music
LR: Polk Monitor 70 (willing to sell if interested)
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AMP:
HT
5.1: Paradigm CT110
AVR: Integra DTR-4.6
WTB: RTiA9 or RTi12 -
There are some factors to answering this question and why one would or would not use a sub when listening to music.
Personally I always use a sub when listening to music. Years ago I would turn it off and on and try to get a "PURE" audio sound from my speakers only. This way of thinking is very old school and doesn't hold any water if you are trying to re create what is on the disc or recording.
With all that being said some may own subs that call attention to themselves. Reasons could be bad placement , poor calibration or just a boomy messy **** crappy waste of money over sized junky so called subwoofer.
If you own a sub and love music and it doesn't blend in perfectly with your main speakers then you purchased the wrong sub my friend.
Spot on Dan. The quality of the sub makes all the difference in the world. If it's merely a boom box suited for HT then it won't blend in for 2 channel. I think that those that tried it either didn't have a quality sub or didn't know how to place the sub & tweak it for optimal performance. It does take some time & a lot of triial & error. But once you've found the correct placement...good heavens is it magic. Folks just don't get it as far as what adding a sub (or two) does for your system. They'll spend mucho bucks on IC's & PC's & yet squak at a sub which brings so much more dynamics to the music that any IC or PC can only dream about."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I used to run my SVS sub for music with my Rti10's. After acquiring a pair of Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signiture System speakers I no longer feel a need for the sub, these speakers dig a lot deeper then the Rti10's did.2-Channel System
Analog: VPI Traveler TT, Audio Technica 150MLX, Pro-Ject Tube Box DS
CD Player: Jolida JD-100 Preamp: Cambridge 840E Amp: Odyssey Kismet Stereo
Spkrs: Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature Systems -
I used to be in the "I don't need to stinkin' sub for 2 channel" camp...and then I hooked my sub up to the second pair of outputs on my 2 channel preamp.
The sub has been connected ever since.
My SDA 2A's have very respectable low end on their own, but they still can't dig as low as even my cheap Infinity sub can. I have the sub crossed over at 50hz(as low as the XO will go), and it really helps to solidify the low end a lot. It adds so much more depth to my system. Bass has real authority, that I could never achieve with just the 2A's by themselves.
I really feel that just about any stereo setup can benefit from a subwoofer. The vast majority of the speakers out there, even floor standers, aren't going to be able to dig as low as a decent sub can. Even if they can dig down to the nether regions, most of them aren't going to do it with as much authority as a good sub. Obviously with speakers like 1.2TL's a sub isn't really needed...but I'm sure it certainly wouldn't hurt if it was properly integrated.
In many instances, people find the sub to detract from the overall sound because they didn't spend enough time setting it up and tweaking it. Subs take a lot of trial and error to really dial in. Moving it in tiny little half inch increments can make for very big changes in sound.
Personally, I think some people are a bit too caught up in the "2 channel purist" thing. To each their own, but you're cutting yourself off from a potential way to improve the overall sound of your rig. Obviously it's not necessary or beneficial in every single situation, but I'm sure many of you(even those of you with supposedly full range floorstanders) could benefit from a sub or two. But, everyone's listening to their own system, and as long as you enjoy it, that's what's important.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
There are some factors to answering this question and why one would or would not use a sub when listening to music.
Personally I always use a sub when listening to music. Years ago I would turn it off and on and try to get a "PURE" audio sound from my speakers only. This way of thinking is very old school and doesn't hold any water if you are trying to re create what is on the disc or recording.
With all that being said some may own subs that call attention to themselves. Reasons could be bad placement , poor calibration or just a boomy messy **** crappy waste of money over sized junky so called subwoofer.
If you own a sub and love music and it doesn't blend in perfectly with your main speakers then you purchased the wrong sub my friend.
Sorry, but none of these are true for me. The subs blend very well, but I can tell they're there. Plus, I prefer the sound without all the calibration, equalizaton, and processing, etc. That's what really makes music sound like crap. And with mains that go to 18 Hz and are pretty flat and positioned to not need phase correction, tell me again why I can't get accurate reproduction without subs?
For those that like how music sounds with their subs, well, that's all that really matters. For me, and maybe I'm just very sensitive to phase distortion at low frequencies, but I can always tell if I'm crossed over and using subs. On the other hand, when someone tells me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not doing it like they are, I do get a chuckle. Bottom line, there is no one right way to get good sound.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Sorry, but none of these are true for me. The subs blend very well, but I can tell they're there. Plus, I prefer the sound without all the calibration, equalizaton, and processing, etc. That's what really makes music sound like crap. And with mains that go to 18 Hz and are pretty flat and positioned to not need phase correction, tell me again why I can't get accurate reproduction without subs?
For those that like how music sounds with their subs, well, that's all that really matters. For me, and maybe I'm just very sensitive to phase distortion at low frequencies, but I can always tell if I'm crossed over and using subs. On the other hand, when someone tells me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not doing it like they are, I do get a chuckle. Bottom line, there is no one right way to get good sound.
What mains are you using and what subs have you tried out that didn't satisfy your 2 channel needs? -
Am I correrct in saying that, if your speakers can dig to 40 Hz, you are pretty safe without a sub for music?Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
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I crossover my sub at 60 hz with Lsi7s when listening to music. I actually think that they go pretty low for small bookshelves, but they cannot cover the last octave or two and certainly not with authority. Right now I use the avr for this but eventually I will use the speaker inputs/outputs and get a separate lfe sub. Having said that, I think that if you don't turn up the sub too much and your crossover point is very low, it is difficult to tell what is coming from the sub and what is coming from the mains. It also helps that my sub is an acoustic suspension design almost dead center between the mains. Just my 2 cents...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
I usually use my MicroPRO 2000 with "older" music that does not have that much bass. It is connected to my 2 channel system. The system that uses my 1.2TL's as the fronts.
So then the sub isn't blending and playing the music as it was recorded, you are "boosting" the low end to compensate like a tone control. That's the exact reason I don't like subs in pure 2ch systems.
I don't use a sub because I don't know of a good way to incorporate it seemlessly into a 2 channel system without adding a processor of some sort. Plus, I have no problem in the low end if recorded material has low freq. There are also phase issues and distortion issues with a sub that I don't have to deal with with SDA's."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
That's what really makes music sound like crap. And with mains that go to 18 Hz and are pretty flat and positioned to not need phase correction, tell me again why I can't get accurate reproduction without subs?
For those that like how music sounds with their subs, well, that's all that really matters. For me, and maybe I'm just very sensitive to phase distortion at low frequencies, but I can always tell if I'm crossed over and using subs. On the other hand, when someone tells me I'm doing it wrong because I'm not doing it like they are, I do get a chuckle. Bottom line, there is no one right way to get good sound.
Typically the best positioning for imaging is not the best position to place a LF transducer or subwoofer. So you're restricting LF productions to the positions you placed your mains at while if you had a subwoofer which you could move around to the best position to create bass. It doesn't really matter if your mains are flat, but it matters if your room "makes" your mains flat. Typically below 100hz your room affects the bass more than you speakers do.
As for phase distortion, it's largely inaudible to humans. I'd be very surprised if anyone can hear the phase distortion from any of the crossovers used in a loudspeaker. As for crossing subs and playing with them. It is quite difficult to integrate it especially if you're restricted by placement options and lack of measuring equipment.
But yeap, no one way to get great sound. I just happen to prefer how well my subs blend in.2Ch Tube Audio Convert
