How many listen to 2 channel music with their sub on?

aboroth00

heiney9 wrote: »

So then the sub isn't blending and playing the music as it was recorded, you are "boosting" the low end to compensate like a tone control. That's the exact reason I don't like subs in pure 2ch systems.

I don't use a sub because I don't know of a good way to incorporate it seemlessly into a 2 channel system without adding a processor of some sort. Plus, I have no problem in the low end if recorded material has low freq. There are also phase issues and distortion issues with a sub that I don't have to deal with with SDA's.

Well you pretty much have the choice of running it flat or boosting signals so that's not an issue.

It is difficult to position and incorporate a sub but it can yield rewarding results if done correctly. Yes I agree that if you don't want to add a processor or EQ, then you probably shouldn't. But it is unlikely that the mains FR response is flat below 100hz, but with a properly placed sub this can be easier achieved.

In my own setup, I tried placing my sub around and measuring it with a mic at the LP. Once I got it all dialed in, the best position was somewhere between my Left Front and rack and achieved a flat response which was otherwise impossible with the mains alone due to their position.

JimAckley

To give my .02 on the phase thing, I can tell some phase stuff is going on with just my LSi25s' subs playing. I was never a huge fan of the side-firing subwoofers. They're awesome when you're between both towers, but get a little meh when you start moving side-to-side in the room. And maybe it's just my room... I dunno. That's part of why I'm gonna do my epic LFE project.

treitz3

mantis wrote: »

This way of thinking is very old school and doesn't hold any water if you are trying to re create what is on the disc or recording.

Agreed. You are just omitting what the speakers can not reproduce. Bose does the same thing.

leroyjr1 wrote: »

For me duals are the way to go.

You could not be more correct. Stereo duals, that is.

Obsession18 wrote: »

After acquiring a pair of Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature System speakers I no longer feel a need for the sub, these speakers dig a lot deeper then the Rti10's did.

I have the same speakers and though they do a fantastic job with the lower registers, you would be surprised what you are still missing. I'm not saying that you should go out and buy a sub. I'm just pointing out that the 3Hz frequency range that they don't do can make the world of difference in your sound stage. That said, if you enjoy what you hear? Don't touch a thing. In other words, don't fix what ain't broke and if you like it......that's all that matters.

quadzilla wrote: »

Sorry, but none of these are true for me. The subs blend very well, but I can tell they're there. Plus, I prefer the sound without all the calibration, equalization, and processing, etc. That's what really makes music sound like crap. And with mains that go to 18 Hz and are pretty flat and positioned to not need phase correction, tell me again why I can't get accurate reproduction without subs?

Ok, you use subs but you also have mains that are full range speakers. If you have true full range speakers, then why the need for a sub? Not knockin', just curious.

Another thing. If you can tell they are there, then the subs are not blending properly. I'm kinda confused at this point. You can tell where the subs are but you don't like calibration, equalization, and processing, etc. Done properly, that's what makes the sub blend with the mains to where you can't tell if there is a sub running or not. Would you please clarify this?

zingo

Don't have a sub.

gudnoyez

For music I use my ol trusty Technics amp pushing my two pair of acoustic research speakers, for pissing off the neighborhood, I swap the Ar18s with my Cerwin vegas, no need for a sub with that set up. For cranking up the concert blu rays or dvds nothing beats the polk set up with the sub.

Toolfan66

My reason for not trying a sub in my two channel rig?? Is I don't want to daisy chain them in my system, and anyone that has heard my system in the last 6 months would tell you I don't need it, but I'm not against trying it but as I said I don't like the idea of daisy chaining them

treitz3

There are systems that don't need a sub. That is a fact.

That said, those systems are far and few between. Very far, indeed.

olilugo

treitz3 wrote: »

There are systems that don't need a sub. That is a fact.

That said, those systems are far and few between. Very far, indeed.

I completely agree. I find myself wondering why companies continue to produce old fashion components with mediocre implementation of today?s technology.

Take for example the sub, most new tower speakers use a 6" woofer clearly not enough to produce proper, deep bass sound, however most AVR and pre-amp manufactures? do not have a proper answer for supporting 2.1 stereo sound. Even more it is less common to have 2 sub outs. For the money we spend in our components you will think that the components would do the job and do it right. Instead most components these days to everything but none of it right.

I realized that some speakers have 10" and 12" woofers but as we already said, they are few and very expensive unless you want to settle for a 10 to 20 year old speakers which there is nothing wrong with that but they are not what people are buying if you were to buy new.
Look at Polk line, only the most high end LSi line has a bigger woofer, everything else is mid woofers.


Sorry for the rant?.

quadzilla

treitz3 wrote: »

Another thing. If you can tell they are there, then the subs are not blending properly. I'm kinda confused at this point. You can tell where the subs are but you don't like calibration, equalization, and processing, etc. Done properly, that's what makes the sub blend with the mains to where you can't tell if there is a sub running or not. Would you please clarify this?

You're misunderstanding me. They are blended properly, and on HT, even I can't tell the subs are there, other than that stuff on the walls shakes a lot and the knick knacks my wife collects move around a lot on their shelves. On music, no one else seems to be able to tell the subs are there, but it just doesn't right to me. I don't have the vocabulary to describe what I hear, but the bass just isn't right. Running either the TL'ed CRS+s or the RTI 12s sounds better and makes the bass sound right. Even my modded LS50s have better bass.

So, it's not boomieness, it's not flabby, it's not mushy, it doesn't lack detail, it just doesn't sound as good or as right as just running straight analog through full range speakers for music. The only other thing I can tell you is that measurements with REW shows more phase distortion in the very low bass through the subs that isn't there when running straight through any of my full ranges speakers. I suspect may be what I'm hearing, but I can't describe what makes it sound wrong in words.

heiney9

10" and 12" woofers don't do bass any better than a 6" or 8'" woofer. All have their tradeoffs and all are dependant on a proper design. Let's not go there, mmmmkay.

H9

quadzilla

aboroth00 wrote: »

Typically the best positioning for imaging is not the best position to place a LF transducer or subwoofer. So you're restricting LF productions to the positions you placed your mains at while if you had a subwoofer which you could move around to the best position to create bass. It doesn't really matter if your mains are flat, but it matters if your room "makes" your mains flat. Typically below 100hz your room affects the bass more than you speakers do.

No argument with this. But I was fortunate enough to find a position for the RTI 12s that gives good imaging, and, weirdly, one side does have a hump in the bass response, but the other side has a dip in the same place, so it evens out. And the problems you mention can apply equally to placing subs. After several weeks of moving the subs around, doing various calculations on placement to minimize undesirable room interactions, etc., the subs needed to be several ft out from both the back and side walls, basically putting them very much in the way of just walking through the listening area. The speaker placement is a slight compromise, but the front baffles of the mains are very close to where measurements and listening said the optimum sub placement was. Now the subs are as close as I can get to optimum, and the rest is corrected by the HT processor and a Behringer 2496, which gives me flat +/- 3db down to 16 Hz.

As for phase distortion, it's largely inaudible to humans. I'd be very surprised if anyone can hear the phase distortion from any of the crossovers used in a loudspeaker. As for crossing subs and playing with them. It is quite difficult to integrate it especially if you're restricted by placement options and lack of measuring equipment.

But yeap, no one way to get great sound. I just happen to prefer how well my subs blend in.

Maybe so, but I hear the same thing about frequencies over 16 KHz. They may not be directly audible, but you can hear the effects these frequencies have on other frequencies. I suspect phase distorion acts the same way. And I have plenty of measuring equipment for audio set up. I. Just. Don't. Like. Subs. For. Music.

jmwest1970

I don't have a sub in my 2 channel rig. My little Totem Rainmakers produce plenty of bass without one. That said, I obviously don't listen to Rap on them, otherwise they would need some reinforcement.

Conradicles

quadzilla wrote: »

I. Just. Don't. Like. Subs. For. Music.

That is me too....BUT if I could venture into the higher end subs I'm sure I could find one I could live with.:cool:

leroyjr1

heiney9 wrote: »

10" and 12" woofers don't do bass any better than a 6" or 8'" woofer. All have their tradeoffs and all are dependant on a proper design. Let's not go there, mmmmkay.

H9

It's all about moving air and a 6" woofer doesn't come close to moving the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" woofer. I've never seen a 6" woofer that could handle a 20hz load with authority.

treitz3

heiney9 wrote: »

10" and 12" woofers don't do bass any better than a 6" or 8'" woofer. All have their tradeoffs and all are dependant on a proper design. Let's not go there, mmmmkay.

You and I agree on many, many things. This, however, we obviously do not. I have not once heard a 6" woofer or even multiple 6" woofers produce the low end like a 10" or a 12". Not once. They may produce a more realistic punch but the extreme lower octaves, they just can't handle quite right.

Thanks for clarifying, quadzilla.

heiney9

leroyjr1 wrote: »

It's all about moving air and a 6" woofer doesn't come close to moving the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" woofer. I've never seen a 6" woofer that could handle a 20hz load with authority.

If you are talking a *single* driver and free air resonance, then no. I would put the bass produced by (4) 6" drivers and PR up against a 10" or 12" woofer with a port any day.

My point is, and you seemed to miss this, is it's not always about the size of the driver, it's about how it's implemented. Just like 30wpc can sound better than 200wpc.

I'm not saying that in every instance this is true, but for someone to arbitrarily say (not your post) that a larger woofer has more bass is ludicrous.

Leroy, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just thought on it's face this was a silly statement"

most new tower speakers use a 6" woofer clearly not enough to produce proper, deep bass sound,

H9

ben62670

On rare occasion when I did use a sub it was crossed at 40-60hz. Anything more just blurs the music.

leroyjr1

heiney9 wrote: »

10" and 12" woofers don't do bass any better than a 6" or 8'" woofer. All have their tradeoffs and all are dependant on a proper design. Let's not go there, mmmmkay.

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

If you are talking a *single* driver and free air resonance, then no. I would put the bass produced by (4) 6" drivers and PR up against a 10" or 12" woofer with a port any day.

My point is, and you seemed to miss this, is it's not always about the size of the driver, it's about how it's implemented. Just like 30wpc can sound better than 200wpc.

I'm not saying that in every instance this is true, but for someone to arbitrarily say (not your post) that a larger woofer has more bass is ludicrous.

Leroy, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just thought on it's face this was a silly statement"



H9

I was referring to active drivers not PR's. Didn't see PR's in the first post, Sorry.

heiney9

leroyjr1 wrote: »

I was referring to active drivers not PR's. Didn't see PR's in the first post, Sorry.

I made an assumption that the poster was referring to a floor standing speaker which if using 6" driver(s) has either a port or a PR (which is really a port).

That was the basis for my statement.

H9

aboroth00

quadzilla wrote: »

No argument with this. But I was fortunate enough to find a position for the RTI 12s that gives good imaging, and, weirdly, one side does have a hump in the bass response, but the other side has a dip in the same place, so it evens out. And the problems you mention can apply equally to placing subs. After several weeks of moving the subs around, doing various calculations on placement to minimize undesirable room interactions, etc., the subs needed to be several ft out from both the back and side walls, basically putting them very much in the way of just walking through the listening area. The speaker placement is a slight compromise, but the front baffles of the mains are very close to where measurements and listening said the optimum sub placement was. Now the subs are as close as I can get to optimum, and the rest is corrected by the HT processor and a Behringer 2496, which gives me flat +/- 3db down to 16 Hz.




Maybe so, but I hear the same thing about frequencies over 16 KHz. They may not be directly audible, but you can hear the effects these frequencies have on other frequencies. I suspect phase distortion acts the same way. And I have plenty of measuring equipment for audio set up. I. Just. Don't. Like. Subs. For. Music.

That's good that you have measuring equipment. Which sub are you using? I'm a little dubious when people state they hear phase distortion when it could be completely different such as harmonic distortion. Phase distortion typically occurs around the crossover range and doesn't occur to my knowledge at the low end or high end typically dominated by only 1 driver.

One thing that really helped tighten things up and bring everything together was isolating my subwoofer from the room. Even though I wasn't noticing it, the room was introducing resonances though barely audible (i'm not talking about things rattling and shaking), so I built my own isolation platforms for all 3 of my subs, recalibrated them and everything just came together. Just my 2cents.

comfortablycurt

heiney9 wrote: »

10" and 12" woofers don't do bass any better than a 6" or 8'" woofer. All have their tradeoffs and all are dependant on a proper design. Let's not go there, mmmmkay.

H9

There are tons of speakers that I've never heard...but I've never heard a speaker with 6" or 8"(single or multiple) woofers produce as much bass as speakers with 10" or 12" woofers. Not saying that it isn't possible, but that's been my experience.

That said, I have heard some speakers with 6" and 8" woofers produce some very surprising bass. The LSi9's are a great example.

Toolfan66

OK so I'm sitting here listening to my system, and I have to say I just don't see any need for a subwoofer,to be honest I never really thought about it till this thread came up. The bass in the SDA's is beautiful. I really don't know as I learn more and more in this hobby everyday, and when I think I have something figured out I find out how much more there is to learn..

I have a DSW PRO 500, and 600 but I really doubt either one of those is going to make my jaw drop putting it in my 2 channel rig..

I truely believe synergy plays the biggest role here..

FTGV

aboroth00 wrote: »

As for phase distortion, it's largely inaudible to humans.

While Richard Vandersteen and the late Jim Theil would disagree with that statement,most of research I have read agrees that minimum phase behavior is not important in loudspeakers.

I'd be very surprised if anyone can hear the phase distortion from any of the crossovers used in a loudspeaker.

If quadzilla's actual meaning being out of phase behavior(as opposed to phase distortion) then that would be very audible.Getting the mains and subwoofers to operate in phase can at times prove difficult but is an important factor in achieving a seemless blend.

cfrizz

Larry, you are just assuming that you are getting all the bass that is there without a sub. Until you put one in...all you are making is an assumption that may well be incorrect.

What I have learned over the years of being on this board is that some have their minds made up & won't budge on certain issues, and when newbies come along as I once was, I just automatically assume that they are right. I always believed as the hardcore 2channel people preached that adding a sub to music was supposedly wrong & not needed. Until I got a sub and discovered it enhanced my music greatly. I have kept a sub in not matter what I'm playing at the time.

I think it's hysterical that these same people encourage experimenting with tubes, and vinyl, etc. but staunchly refuse to do the same when it comes to adding in a sub to their 2 channel systems.

Adding a sub or two allows the smaller drivers in speakers to focus on what they were built for which is mid range bass. The LSI 7s have terrific mid range bass, but when they are struggling to play the lower notes, everything becomes muddy, strained and unclear.

Adding a sub in to my brothers 2 channel system, really put things back to where they should be for music with the LSI 7s no longer struggling to play things they really weren't built to play.

JimAckley

+1 about LSi7s needing a sub. I love mine but the bass is nonexistent. I added two 8s and that system came to life.

F1nut

Of course, you will need a sub with speakers like the LSi 7's if you want to cover the bottom end. That's a no brainer, but with large speakers that already cover it, adding a sub makes no sense.

FTGV

cfrizz wrote: »

Larry, you are just assuming that you are getting all the bass that is there without a sub.

Unless he's into pipe organ there is not much musical content below the range his SRS's can reach into.

Toolfan66

cfrizz wrote: »

Larry, you are just assuming that you are getting all the bass that is there without a sub. Until you put one in...all you are making is an assumption that may well be incorrect.

What I have learned over the years of being on this board is that some have their minds made up & won't budge on certain issues, and when newbies come along as I once was, I just automatically assume that they are right. I always believed as the hardcore 2channel people preached that adding a sub to music was supposedly wrong & not needed. Until I got a sub and discovered it enhanced my music greatly. I have kept a sub in not matter what I'm playing at the time.

I think it's hysterical that these same people encourage experimenting with tubes, and vinyl, etc. but staunchly refuse to do the same when it comes to adding in a sub to their 2 channel systems.

Adding a sub or two allows the smaller drivers in speakers to focus on what they were built for which is mid range bass. The LSI 7s have terrific mid range bass, but when they are struggling to play the lower notes, everything becomes muddy, strained and unclear.

Adding a sub in to my brothers 2 channel system, really put things back to where they should be for music with the LSI 7s no longer struggling to play things they really weren't built to play.

No I'm not assuming,it's just that they sound perfect and very beautifu:cool:l. I am not against trying it. One thing I have learned is that when you think it can't be better?? It can!! The 1.2tl's just about do everything right IMO. I'm not saying there is not better cause I learned that at the audio show I went too, But I also learned that what I have I like much better then some of what I got to hear there as well, That is why I say synergy plays a big part here.

Old school or not I don't believe every 2 channel rig needs a sub or is going to benefit from a sub. I hate tone controls and EQ's for 2 channel and these I have tried or got to have my ears on, and they won't see my rig. Like I said I am not against trying it but I don't see it working in my system. Key words is "my system" if it works for others then great!! cause thats all that matters in the end here.

treitz3

F1nut wrote: »

Of course, you will need a sub with speakers like the LSi 7's if you want to cover the bottom end. That's a no brainer, but with large speakers that already cover it, adding a sub makes no sense.

Yeah, your rig fits into the camp of definitely not needing a sub. Without a doubt.

pearsall001

Man you guys really need to get your learn on as what a sub does & how it compliments your main speakers. The only thing ever talked about is the low end...man there's so much more to it than that. I thought you guys were into true audio yet seem to be at a loss when it comes to subs. Yet you'll talk all day long as how your IC's & PC's make such a huge difference. :rolleyes: