How many listen to 2 channel music with their sub on?
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Well then when I went from room to room at the last audio show I went too, Not one room had a subwoofer, not even the planers and they sounded great all by them selfs.
I wonder why??Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
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I have had bookies and heard bookies that sound great. You still can "hear" some of the lower frequencies but they are not really "produced". Kinda like typical TV speakers. Their frequency response generally sucks but you can still hear thunder and lightning. You can hear it but part of the joy and the reproduction that is missing is the feel of it.
With a 20Hz signal, you may be able to hear it [a little bit] with a speaker that is rated down to 35Hz but you damn sure ain't gonna feel it. I'm surprised at a lot of music that digs deeper than one might think....and you have to feel it as well as hear it. If you have a speaker that is not a full range speaker, then you don't know what you are missing because you can't hear it fully reproduced and you can't feel it but it may still sound great.....because you don't know what you are missing.
That was kind of a ramble because I don't now how to gracefully put it into words but I hope you understood me.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I have had bookies and heard bookies that sound great. You still can "hear" some of the lower frequencies but they are not really "produced". Kinda like typical TV speakers. Their frequency response generally sucks but you can still hear thunder and lightning. You can hear it but part of the joy and the reproduction that is missing is the feel of it.
With a 20Hz signal, you may be able to hear it [a little bit] with a speaker that is rated down to 35Hz but you damn sure ain't gonna feel it. I'm surprised at a lot of music that digs deeper than one might think....and you have to feel it as well as hear it. If you have a speaker that is not a full range speaker, then you don't know what you are missing because you can't hear it fully reproduced and you can't feel it but it may still sound great.....because you don't know what you are missing.
That was kind of a ramble because I don't now how to gracefully put it into words but I hope you understood me.
You forgot TUBES RULE!!!Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
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...man there's so much more to it than that.
Ok Phil, why don't you explain that to us.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
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TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Well then when I went from room to room at the last audio show I went too, Not one room had a subwoofer, not even the planers and they sounded great all by them selfs.
I wonder why??
No room in the room. Hell 2 guys each with a sandwich & the rooms crowded at those shows.Ok Phil, why don't you explain that to us.
Come on Jesse...Google is your friend. Research & report back."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »No room in the room. Hell 2 guys each with a sandwich & the rooms crowded at those shows.
I'm sure that was it.:rolleyes: Not all the rooms are small,some rooms had plenty of chairs a fridge with drinks ect.. still no subs...Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
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pearsall001 wrote: »Come on Jesse...Google is your friend. Research & report back.
Hey, you're the one proclaiming there's so much more to it, so you should be the one sharing that knowledge with us.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
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TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »I'm sure that was it.:rolleyes: Not all the rooms are small,some rooms had plenty of chairs a fridge with drinks ect.. still no subs...
I'd imagine those rooms were to show off speakers and not subwoofers.
With this said, I do understand the merits of not using a subwoofer. I've seen and met purists who would never ever use a subwoofer which meant introducing another variable into the setup as well as a crossover, amplifier, driver which was possibly not up to par with the rest of the system.
These are all understandable factors. Introducing another crossover CAN cause phase distortions, though small and IMO largely unaudible can have other causes which others claim to hinder performance. Adding more electronic equipment between the source and loudspeakers will have their detractors.
However I cannot deny the benefits of a subwoofer in allowing the amp to run with more headroom, the speaker to have more headroom/dynamics, and the subwoofer to be more optimally placed. However with a truly full range speaker, treated room, and plenty of wattage to push the speaker effortlessly, can change anyones opinion of having a subwoofer.
These are all compromises guys so please don't get hung up on using a subwoofer or not. Some systems certainly do NEED it more than others and some don't at all.
As for the physics of it, I will always believe at the lowest frequencies <100hz, the room will dominate FR and would need in an untreated room equalization. I was fortunate enough to optimally place in my own room all my subwoofers and achieve a relatively flat frequency response. If anyone would like to see it, it's freakin pancake flat. Of course all rooms are different and until you hear it in your room and maybe even measure it, you'll know. The benefits of a subwoofer always have to be weighed against the cost, but I will generalize, people will benefit from a properly calibrated and placed subwoofer in their setup.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I'd imagine those rooms were to show off speakers and not subwoofers.
Really??? It's an audio show not a speaker show. Bat was there along with Gary Dodd, there was everything from Preamps,amps in tube and solid state form ( they were there just to make the speakers look good I guess.:rolleyes: even the Emotiva room that needed all the help it could get didn't have a subwoofer and they had a new one out at the time..
Everything from CD's,SACD's DVDA's, Vinyl. they had various turntables,room treatments. They had room for many nice systems but no room for a subwoofer??
The audio show is more then just speakers,and if a subwoofer is going to be all that in a system I would think that at least one person there would be proclaming that and trying to sell there product as everyone else..
So your comment makes no sense in the bigger picture at an audio show...
I might add that even the rooms I visited with bookshelfs had no subs.everyones system is going to be different that is a give in.
I didn't get the whole synergy, the blacks are black thing till I started to indulge in different gear and cables,and failed a couple of times. Then I got it!!! and have chased it since.
In a full dedicated 2 channel set up with full range speakers, If one needs tone controls,EQ,and a subwoofer to make it all better, then IMO key words IN MY OPINON!! then something is missing and not meshing right. Back to the other key word SYNERGY!!!
Another IMO,If SDA,s need a subwoofer for a dedicated 2 channel then something in the chain is wrong, not nessesarly gear but maybe the crossover..
Just my .02 and not saying I'm right cause I have been schooled before..:biggrin:Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎
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TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Really??? It's an audio show not a speaker show. Bat was there along with Gary Dodd, there was everything from Preamps,amps in tube and solid state form ( they were there just to make the speakers look good I guess.:rolleyes: even the Emotiva room that needed all the help it could get didn't have a subwoofer and they had a new one out at the time..
Everything from CD's,SACD's DVDA's, Vinyl. they had various turntables,room treatments. They had room for many nice systems but no room for a subwoofer??
The audio show is more then just speakers,and if a subwoofer is going to be all that in a system I would think that at least one person there would be proclaming that and trying to sell there product as everyone else..
So your comment makes no sense in the bigger picture at an audio show...
I might add that even the rooms I visited with bookshelfs had no subs.everyones system is going to be different that is a give in.
I didn't get the whole synergy, the blacks are black thing till I started to indulge in different gear and cables,and failed a couple of times. Then I got it!!! and have chased it since.
In a full dedicated 2 channel set up with full range speakers, If one needs tone controls,EQ,and a subwoofer to make it all better, then IMO key words IN MY OPINON!! then something is missing and not meshing right. Back to the other key word SYNERGY!!!
Another IMO,If SDA,s need a subwoofer for a dedicated 2 channel then something in the chain is wrong, not nessesarly gear but maybe the crossover..
Just my .02 and not saying I'm right cause I have been schooled before..:biggrin:
I only said there were no subwoofers because ideally if you wanted to listen to a speaker and how it performs you would listen to it without a subwoofer. Otherwise, people would proclaim, "oh hey, that speaker can't actually have that much bass because there's a subwoofer playing in the background." It's like going to listen to a pair of speakers, and having a subwoofer on while auditioning. Auditioning and practical listening are two different things. I was just trying to emphasize that point. You listen to a pair of speakers for its weaknesses (bass) as well as strengths. Then you can decide for yourself whether a subwoofer is needed.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
No sub, 2 channel is 2 channel
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........and 2.2 channel is 2.2 channel?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I use Paradigm 100 v2's with multiple subwoofers for 2 ch. (basshead)
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Teledynes Acoustic Research series speakers were the sought after speakers in the early 80s, the Ar58's with thier 12 Inch woofer were pretty untouchable for speakers around $700 a pair and with a decent amp with manual EQ settings these delivered as much bass that you would ever need, I even keep the bass setting low on my technics amp, and these shake the house, teamed together with my Cerwin Vegas, the bass these two pair of speakers produce would put a lot of subwoofers to the test. The perfect party speakers.Home Theater
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If your using a sub,, in 2 channel your coloring the music,, Rock, country, jazz,, music, does not even go that deep,,, Why use a sub??? its the same as useing EQ,, Tone controls,, as your altering the flat responce,, of the music, Its an endless debate,, as russman said,, Whatever blows up your audio skirt,, I wonder though, what did all you purists,, and audiophiles use before there were subs???? How many concerts, have you been to, where you feel the bass???Not an Audiophile, just a dude who loves music, and decent gear to hear it with.
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Subs, are and were introduced for H,T, period.:cool:If your using a sub,, in 2 channel your coloring the music,, Rock, country, jazz,, music, does not even go that deep,,, Why use a sub??? its the same as useing EQ,, Tone controls,, as your altering the flat responce,, of the music, Its an endless debate,, as russman said,, Whatever blows up your audio skirt,, I wonder though, what did all you purists,, and audiophiles use before there were subs???? How many concerts, have you been to, where you feel the bass???Not an Audiophile, just a dude who loves music, and decent gear to hear it with. -
Actually I think it was M&K that first introduced the 3 pc sub sat config back in the 70's thus pre- dating HT by a tad.Subs, are and were introduced for H,T, period.:cool: -
Interesting poll...seems as though a lot more folks know what it's all about & enjoy the benefits of listening to the real deal. In the end there's no right or wrong, it's all in what you enjoy."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Properly done, you do not color the music. I guess you have not yet heard a sub properly set up and integrated because unless you have true full range speakers? The music does go that deep. You just don't know what you are missing.If your using a sub,, in 2 channel your coloring the music,, Rock, country, jazz,, music, does not even go that deep
Every concert I have been to besides acoustic. Even then, with a full orchestra I can still feel the bass.How many concerts, have you been to, where you feel the bass???~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Sal, there are other things in his rig besides the speakers that you have to factor into the equation as well. While you may have benefited from a sub, it does not mean that you are breaking any audiophile law. It might just mean that you prefer your lower registers to be heavier than what your rig has to offer on the bottom end. I'm just sayin' that the Mars Hotel does not need a sub. It's fine just that way it is and it definitely does not need any enhancement at the bottom.
You don't need to unhook the sub for anybody but you. It's your rig but on another note, yes....tubes are definitely worthy of consideration. Always.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I"m fortunate enough to have a HT in the basement and my 2 channel rig upstairs. My 2 channel rig is a 2.2. My pre provides three outputs for tri amping if I ever wanted to get that crazy! Anyway, I use the outputs to drive the stereo pair of subs.
I'm not a basshead. After spending the time to properly calibrate, trap and damp the room, I don't even realize the subs are on unless they are off. A properly calibrated sub(s) do not bring attention to themselves. They bring a richness and fullness to the music. When somebody is building a house, you don't skimp on the foundation. A sub is the foundation of a music system either 2 channel or HT.
Perhaps those against the use of a sub in 2 channel have never experienced a quality piece properly integrated. Perhaps they have and still don't care for it. That's fine also.
Chocolate or Vanilla??
Gordon2 Channel -
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I"m fortunate enough to have a HT in the basement and my 2 channel rig upstairs. My 2 channel rig is a 2.2. My pre provides three outputs for tri amping if I ever wanted to get that crazy! Anyway, I use the outputs to drive the stereo pair of subs.
I'm not a basshead. After spending the time to properly calibrate, trap and damp the room, I don't even realize the subs are on unless they are off. A properly calibrated sub(s) do not bring attention to themselves. They bring a richness and fullness to the music. When somebody is building a house, you don't skimp on the foundation. A sub is the foundation of a music system either 2 channel or HT.
Perhaps those against the use of a sub in 2 channel have never experienced a quality piece properly integrated. Perhaps they have and still don't care for it. That's fine also.
Chocolate or Vanilla??
Gordon
Spot on post Gordon. It's not just about the low registers, there's just more "musical refinement" if you will especially with dual, properly placed, calibrated subs. The "foundation" scenerio is the perfect way to describe it. I think guys get too hung up on thinking that the sub(s) are simply there to fill in the bottom end. That is just so inaccurate of a description.
I for one after putting in the time to dial in my subs & experiencing the dramatic difference they made will never be subless in my 2 channel rig.
Adding subs is not for the faint of heart...you have to spend a good bit of time to get it just right. But when you do...well you know the rest!
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That's good that you have measuring equipment. Which sub are you using? I'm a little dubious when people state they hear phase distortion when it could be completely different such as harmonic distortion. Phase distortion typically occurs around the crossover range and doesn't occur to my knowledge at the low end or high end typically dominated by only 1 driver.
I'm not saying I'm hearing phase distortion. All I'm saying is that I'm hearing something that I don't like, and the only thing I've been able to find via measuring is significant phase distortion in the bottom two octaves my system can produce. I also have already mentioned what subs I'm using.One thing that really helped tighten things up and bring everything together was isolating my subwoofer from the room. Even though I wasn't noticing it, the room was introducing resonances though barely audible (i'm not talking about things rattling and shaking), so I built my own isolation platforms for all 3 of my subs, recalibrated them and everything just came together. Just my 2cents.
I'm using platforms now. That was how I got them to blend so well for multi-channel sound. I'm certain the room does introduce some resonances as well. It's a major case of "if I'd known then what I know now...", and if I had, I would have bought a different house. Even now, I'm thinking about knocking out a wall to make my 2 channel room 27x15, instead of the 18x15 it is now.Turntable: Empire 208
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While Richard Vandersteen and the late Jim Theil would disagree with that statement,most of research I have read agrees that minimum phase behavior is not important in loudspeakers.If quadzilla's actual meaning being out of phase behavior(as opposed to phase distortion) then that would be very audible.Getting the mains and subwoofers to operate in phase can at times prove difficult but is an important factor in achieving a seemless blend.
Nope, they're in phase. I'm checked that 19 ways from Sunday. Measurements show some phase distorion around the xover point, but not a large amount. Where it really shows up is the in the 16-48Hz range, which is almost an octave below the xover point when using an 80 Hz 24db/octave xover, which works best for HT/multi-channel. If I had to guess, and I do, it probably has something to do with the eq'ing done in the sub and/or the eq'ing I'm doing to even out he response, thought there's no correlation to where I have filter bands in place.Turntable: Empire 208
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Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Also spot on.pearsall001 wrote: »Spot on post Gordon. It's not just about the low registers, there's just more "musical refinement" if you will especially with dual, properly placed, calibrated subs. The "foundation" scenerio is the perfect way to describe it. I think guys get too hung up on thinking that the sub(s) are simply there to fill in the bottom end. That is just so inaccurate of a description.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
pearsall001 wrote: »Man you guys really need to get your learn on as what a sub does & how it compliments your main speakers. The only thing ever talked about is the low end...man there's so much more to it than that. I thought you guys were into true audio yet seem to be at a loss when it comes to subs. Yet you'll talk all day long as how your IC's & PC's make such a huge difference. :rolleyes:
The same could be said of you. You seem quite positive that unless someone runs a sub, they aren't getting a sound they're happy with, or ever prefer, or running subs.
Yes, a sub will add weight to all the instruments. Yes, subs will remove the chore of trying to produce lower frequencies from the mains, which would be especially valuable when using speakers with 1 or 2 smaller drivers, such a tm/tmm/tmw configurations. But like all things in audio, there is no one hard rule for this. Not all speakers/rooms/listeners are created equal. The other thing missing is that "good bass" has no single definition. The chest pounding, filling rattling, concernt level sound that some may like would be called overpowering or fatiguing by others. The other side of that is the refined bottom end some may like would be called anemic by others.
So until we get an agreement on exactly what constitutes "good bass", we're really just all talking past each other.Turntable: Empire 208
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Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
To me, good bass reproduction is what you would hear with music being played in front of you, no matter if you were in a private setting, small venue, large venue, open field concert or large stadium. That's my reference and the accurate reproduction thereof is what constitutes good bass.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I don't disagree, but all of those have markedly different sound charecteristics. Listening to a string quartet in small room is not at all like listening to a rock concert at a stadium.
Personally, I tend to reference unamplified instruments, or, for instruments requiring an amp, the sound and texture of those instruments played at small club volumes. I personally don't want the sound of a 15k-20k watt system running full blast in my house. I find the 3500-ish watts I'm running for multi-channel, and the 250 watts I'm running for 2 channel to be fully adequate. Though I will at some point upgrade my subs, probably with a DIY thing that I have floating in the back of my head. Got both an IB and a sealed box design in there.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified -
Nope, they're in phase. I'm checked that 19 ways from Sunday. Measurements show some phase distorion around the xover point, but not a large amount. Where it really shows up is the in the 16-48Hz range, which is almost an octave below the xover point when using an 80 Hz 24db/octave xover, which works best for HT/multi-channel. If I had to guess, and I do, it probably has something to do with the eq'ing done in the sub and/or the eq'ing I'm doing to even out he response, thought there's no correlation to where I have filter bands in place.
Phase distortion shouldn't be be caused by the EQ device. Any phase distortion introduced by any quality EQ device should have minimal impact on phase distortion. I would like to guess it's something your room influencing the bass rather than blaming it on the subwoofer. Even with a flat response and the graph of phase distortion won't make you hate or love the bass in your room.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
I don't disagree, but all of those have markedly different sound charecteristics. Listening to a string quartet in small room is not at all like listening to a rock concert at a stadium.
Personally, I tend to reference unamplified instruments, or, for instruments requiring an amp, the sound and texture of those instruments played at small club volumes. I personally don't want the sound of a 15k-20k watt system running full blast in my house. I find the 3500-ish watts I'm running for multi-channel, and the 250 watts I'm running for 2 channel to be fully adequate. Though I will at some point upgrade my subs, probably with a DIY thing that I have floating in the back of my head. Got both an IB and a sealed box design in there.
I didn't quite catch which subs you're using now; it wasn't referenced in this thread. I'm just curious that's all.
But a DIY sub would pretty much blow away any competitors for the price. Only problem is: all the labor involved!2Ch Tube Audio Convert
