How many listen to 2 channel music with their sub on?

Geoff4rfc

gfong wrote: »

What are some of your reasons that we would use a sub with 2 front speakers?

I don't have any reason for "we", but I enjoy listening to my new Empire sub with both movies and music including two speakers and both subs.

newrival

The fact is that subwoofers are there for the same reason we have midrange drivers, tweeters, and super tweeters. The allusion that subwoofers are somehow not hi-fi because they weren't seen at an audio show is a weak one. MOST of the upper-most echelon of speakers have subwoofers used in the design of the speaker system. Also, I don't remember who said it, but saying that a subwoofer "colors the sound" is equally flat out wrong. Sure the signal path to the sub certainly not any more than could any amp or cabling in a system. Additionally, the contention that adding a sub or two somehow makes it somehow no longer 2 channel makes no sense.

Whether you nee a sub with a set of speakers is up to your listening preferences, room conditions, and the frequency response of your speakers. If you listen to music that has musical information in a range lower than your actual in-room f3, then subs would be need to more accurately represent the source signal. That's the truth. Whether you care to hear it is the question you have to answer. As you can see, there are people here who prefer not to.

treitz3

Could you please clarify that last paragraph a bit, newrival?

newrival

treitz3 wrote: »

Could you please clarify that last paragraph a bit, newrival?

sure.

If you listen to music that has musical information in a range lower than your actual in-room f3, then subs would be need to more accurately represent the source signal.

Sorry if I go over much that you already know, but hopefully it'll help someone else that might not understand it all:
So lets say the you have a set of X Brand speakers with a frequency response of 35Hz - 25,000Hz. While this gives you the frequency range that the speaker will reproduce, it doesn't offer any insight in how it will reproduce them. Now lets say you have lower and higher f3's of 50Hz and 22kHz, respectively. This is to say that the sound reproduced between 50Hz and 22kHz is reproduced within a range of 6db. Another way the f3 is represented in specs is something like "flat within 3db 50Hz - 22kHz. Not to beat a dead horse, but this simply means that the output at those frequencies are output at very close levels. Oustide of the f3's the signal is not so controlled and where you will find your roll off of high and low frequencies. so while speaker X can reproduce sound at 35Hz-50Hz, it's going to drop off rapidly in level creating a less true representation of the source signal. And although this discussion is about subwoofers, the same is true on the top end. Part of the reason people like the realism of ribbon tweeters is because they typically reproduce frequencies up to 30kHz. So why is this important if we can't hear that high? It's because we can hear it's harmonics that are present from the recording. If the 30kHz isn't reproduced we don't hear the harmonics that are somewhere around 15kHz and 8kHz. And the same is true in the bass. I have to add that the comment about these lower frequencies are not present in rock, jazz, and country is ignorant if not rediculous. The kick drum alone is typically somewhere between 40 and 50Hz and bass guitar can get down to 40Hz. Better hope thats above your lower roll off. And if you like classical? forget accurate reproduction on Speaker X.
Tympani: 38Hz
Harp: 28Hz
French Horn: 55Hz
Bassoon: 55Hz
Contrabassoon: 25Hz
Tuba: ~30Hz
Pipe Organ: 16Hz (and I've heard some are lower yet)

Anyways, the addition of an external sub into stereo is something that should be integrated with aas much thoughtfulness as any other component, if not more. The issue is that often you are trying to incorporate another crossover and another driver that was designed independent of your stereo speakers. This just means you have to do a little more work than if it were a sub designed specifically for your speakers or integrated into the speaker cabinet itself. If you have a reference system of some refinement, sticking a sub in the corner and cranking up the gain is only going to make for poor results.

That's the truth. Whether you care to hear it is the question you have to answer. As you can see, there are people here who prefer not to.

When I said "whether you care to hear it or not," "it" is referring to the musical information beyond the f3, not making a snide comment. Rereading it, it seems like that could be easily mistaken.

jjk_reef00

This really depends on the type of music you like. I prefer additional low's so I use my sub...

F1nut

pearsall001 wrote: »

It's not just about the low registers, there's just more "musical refinement" if you will especially with dual, properly placed, calibrated subs. The "foundation" scenerio is the perfect way to describe it. I think guys get too hung up on thinking that the sub(s) are simply there to fill in the bottom end. That is just so inaccurate of a description.

I've got the "foundation" scenerio covered (which, by the way, is also called filling in the bottom end), the richness and fullness to the music covered (if the bottom end is there, the richness and fullness will follow) and the "musical refinement" covered all without a sub, so I'm still wondering what it is that you think I'm missing without one.



Directed at no one in particular......to say that unless you are using a sub, regardless of what your main speakers are, that you are missing something is rather foolish, if not down right ignorant. One needs to understand that while some rigs may actually need/benefit from a sub, that there are plenty of rigs out there that do not need and therefore will not benefit from the use of a sub.

newrival

F1nut wrote: »

Directed at no one in particular......to say that unless you are using a sub, regardless of what your main speakers are, that you are missing something is rather foolish, if not down right ignorant. One needs to understand that while some rigs may actually need/benefit from a sub, that there are plenty of rigs out there that do not need and therefore will not benefit from the use of a sub.

This is correct. As I was saying there are several variables, not least of which is listener preference. However, if one has a set of speakers that is simply incapable of reproducing the lowest registers at a level relatively flat to the rest of the frequency range, augmenting them with an external subwoofer is a method of resolving this issue.

leroyjr1

F1nut wrote: »

I've got the "foundation" scenerio covered (which, by the way, is also called filling in the bottom end), the richness and fullness to the music covered (if the bottom end is there, the richness and fullness will follow) and the "musical refinement" covered all without a sub, so I'm still wondering what it is that you think I'm missing without one.



Directed at no one in particular......to say that unless you are using a sub, regardless of what your main speakers are, that you are missing something is rather foolish, if not down right ignorant. One needs to understand that while some rigs may actually need/benefit from a sub, that there are plenty of rigs out there that do not need and therefore will not benefit from the use of a sub.

What speakers do you have that don't need a sub?

heiney9

leroyjr1 wrote: »

What speakers do you have that don't need a sub?

It's not always about the speakers.............the gear has a lot to do with it as well.

I have heard bass out of my 1C's when watching a movie that I have never heard/felt listening to music...........I can reasonably deduce that's because much of recorded music just doesn't have this lower octave everyone swears those of us who don't have subs is missing.

Just because a real instrument can go below 35Hz doesn't mean it's necessarily recorded at that level. Much of the processing in modern music uses techniques that restrict material below a certain frequency.

Now that's not to say that a well done recording doesn't have these lower frequency's, what I'm saying is *most* music really doesn't play below about 30-32Hz...........now before everyone jumps on me.........I didn't say ALL MUSIC.

If you are hearing these supposed lower frequencies (that aren't really part of the recording) then I would submit that in many cases the sub is coloring or boosting or accentuating those lowest frequencies.

I have more bass than I ever thought possible in my room, with my gear. A sub would be overkill.

H9

leroyjr1

heiney9 wrote: »

It's not always about the speakers.............the gear has a lot to do with it as well.

I have heard bass out of my 1C's when watching a movie that I have never heard/felt listening to music...........I can reasonably deduce that's because much of recorded music just doesn't have this lower octave everyone swears those of us who don't have subs is missing.

Just because a real instrument can go below 35Hz doesn't mean it's necessarily recorded at that level. Much of the processing in modern music uses techniques that restrict material below a certain frequency.

Now that's not to say that a well done recording doesn't have these lower frequency's, what I'm saying is *most* music really doesn't play below about 30-32Hz...........now before everyone jumps on me.........I didn't say ALL MUSIC.

If you are hearing these supposed lower frequencies (that aren't really part of the recording) then I would submit that in many cases the sub is coloring or boosting or accentuating those lowest frequencies.

I have more bass than I ever thought possible in my room, with my gear. A sub would be overkill.

H9

Gear is very important, but speakers play the biggest part. I don't care what kind of gear you have if your speakers can't produce low end extension then they just can't.

heiney9

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Gear is very important, but speakers play the biggest part. I don't care what kind of gear you have if your speakers can't produce low end extension then they just can't.

I agree..........but most SDA's go low enough that, in my experience, a sub is not needed. Of course they need proper gear and set-up.

H9

Toolfan66

Jesse has 2.3tl's

I was listening to my system yesterday and was thinking about this thread, and I just don't see or feel there is any reason to add a sub to my system. I really feel I would be wasting my time and money. with the gear I have and the mods I have done I just don't see any reason to even try it..

jhw59

My Klipsch Heresys cut out around 60hz so a sub really helps so yes all the time for 2 channel.

quadzilla

aboroth00 wrote: »

I didn't quite catch which subs you're using now; it wasn't referenced in this thread. I'm just curious that's all.

But a DIY sub would pretty much blow away any competitors for the price. Only problem is: all the labor involved!

Not just price, but something customized to my needs. The goal is to eventually get something that does work with the rest of my gear and blends transparently. Because, at no point did I say I was against subs, I've only said that, of the ones I've tried, I haven't like them, and that in my rooms using my rigs, I don't like subs for 2 channel.

But if I can get, say, some TC Sounds 15s, or a couple of Epic 18s, maybe even 21s, in an IB, then things may change.

As to what I have now, I finally settled on a pair of M&Ks, as they were the most musical, or the least non-musical, depending on your view.

heiney9

Just to put things in perspective these are measured responses for the SDA 1C. Yes, measurements don't always correlate exactly with real world listening because of room variables, etc. But why would I need to add a sub when......

......The measured frequency response of the SDA 1C is 20Hz - 18Khz (+/-) 5dB now granted 5dB down at 20Hz is a noticeable roll off, but it's not that bad or completely beyond audibility or in a real sense tactile feeling.

Bass distortion was phenominally low from 100Hz down to 25Hz @ 0.8% and only 3.2% @ 20Hz.......the lowest bass distortion ever measured up to that point.

So tell me again, this is for you Phil , why am I missing something in my rig? So a normal sub will fill in below 20Hz? What musical recordings actually produce signals that low? Not instruments, but actual recorded music? Beside organ music which I am not a huge fan of?

I realize some of the classical reference recordings most likely have very low frequency signals at times...........but again how many? What am I really missing? And ftr, I don't listen to classical.

So again all us 2ch guys living in the past and don't have enough sense to get a sub because everyone *must* have one or they are missing something in their musical presentation. Please tell me how a sub will augment my system?

H9

JimAckley

quadzilla wrote: »

Not just price, but something customized to my needs. The goal is to eventually get something that does work with the rest of my gear and blends transparently. Because, at no point did I say I was against subs, I've only said that, of the ones I've tried, I haven't like them, and that in my rooms using my rigs, I don't like subs for 2 channel.

But if I can get, say, some TC Sounds 15s, or a couple of Epic 18s, maybe even 21s, in an IB, then things may change.

As to what I have now, I finally settled on a pair of M&Ks, as they were the most musical, or the least non-musical, depending on your view.

I'd definitely look into the TC Sounds drivers. I'm about to grab an LMS 5400and two VMP 18" passives. That setup is absolutely incredible, and the 5100 Pro as a solo unit, or coupled with passives, is even better for the average consumer. If you have the space, get a 5100 Pro and either port or passive it. If you've ever got some free time, I know a guy up in Sherman who's got the 5400 in a sealed enclosure, and it's breathtaking. We could roll up there sometime and listen to it if you want. I'll have mine all put together sometime this summer.

pearsall001

heiney9 wrote: »

So tell me again, this is for you Phil , why am I missing something in my rig? So a normal sub will fill in below 20Hz? What musical recordings actually produce signals that low? Not instruments, but actual recorded music? Beside organ music which I am not a huge fan of?

I realize some of the classical reference recordings most likely have very low frequency signals at times...........but again how many? What am I really missing? And ftr, I don't listen to classical.

So again all us 2ch guys living in the past and don't have enough sense to get a sub because everyone *must* have one or they are missing something in their musical presentation. Please tell me how a sub will augment my system?

H9

Brock, I never meant to imply that you needed a sub...honestly you need two of those bad boys!!!! In chasing after that elusive 2% everything matters.

newrival

too funny

comfortablycurt

All you guys with big SDA's! You don't need a sub!!

We're all aware of that fact. I don't think anyone here has implied that every system out there absolutely needs a sub, without question. Obviously some speakers are capable of digging down low enough to make the addition of a sub essentially insignificant. Just because your personal systems don't need them though, doesn't mean that no other serious 2 channel enthusiast could possibly use one successfully.

Fact is, the majority of the speakers out there don't really have much in the way of real usable output below 35-40hz or so. For many people, digging down to 35-40 hz is plenty. Not for everyone though. I've found the addition of my relatively entry level sub to my rig has made a substantial improvement on the low end of my system. For a long time I refused to use it, because I heard a lot of you saying that subs in 2 channel rigs was just wrong. Then I tried hooking it up, and I'm never going back. My SDA 2A's have very respectable bass on their own...but they sound fathoms better with my sub crossed over at 50hz.

Some of you seem to be too stuck in your own personal ways, and unwilling to accept that the personal tastes and requirements of someone else may be different. Some people simply like to have fuller bass. You can go ahead and say that having fuller bass is "coloring" the signal or changing it from the way it was originally intended to be listened to blah blah blah. Who cares? If those that are using subs are enjoying them, why should it matter to you? Let them enjoy them. Many MANY systems can benefit greatly from using subwoofers. There's absolutely nothing "wrong" or "improper" about using subs in a 2 channel rig, and the use of them in 2 channel rigs does not cause your rig to lose it's "2 channel" status.:rolleyes: On the flip side though, there is absolutely nothing wrong or improper about NOT using a sub(s). Many people don't need that extra bass extension or even want it. Many of you that are running big SDA's already have solid output down to 20ish HZ and for those of you who are...you obviously don't need a sub. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that you do. However, many of you are completely ruling out the possibility that it could in any way improve anything, and that's very counter productive to this hobby. Aren't you the ones always saying that the only way you can judge a component or setup is by listening to it, preferably in your own home? How many of you guys with the big SDA's have actually tried using subs? I know there are at least a few people on this board that are happily running subs with their big SRS's. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Discuss the possible merits/drawbacks to it...yes...but don't completely rule out the possibility that it could improve anything in any way...because that fact is, unless you've tried it...all you have is speculation.

The results of this poll provide some kind of indication as to how many people actually ARE enjoying their 2 channel rigs with subs. I bet not all of the people who replied yes are running little bookshelf speakers either. I'm sure many of them are running supposed "full range" floorstanders...and have found their subs to make a very appreciable improvement. I'm but one example of the latter.

newrival

I have run a sub with my SRS's despite them having a lower f3 of 28Hz (nom.). While there was a definite benefit in the way of sub-bass reinforcement and weight, I was having room interaction issues that were beyond my ability to solve at the time and so it was relieved of its duty. Even the venerable 1.2tl's could benefit from a sub seeing as they, too, have a lower f3 of 27Hz. The 1c's are somewhere around 32Hz IIRC.

Curt, as a "furthermore" to your post, I'd say that for some, the addition of a sub is akin to an admission that ones system is somehow lacking or inferior. The truth is that there are VERY few speakers out there that can't technically benefit from subwoofers. Hell, even the Wilson Audio SLAMM was designed with stereo external subs. But not everyone enjoys that sound, or at least feels that they would. As someone stated in this thread, there are those that love the sound of bass that others might call "anemic." As you pointed out, it's a preference, and we all have our own.

heiney9

comfortablycurt wrote: »

All you guys with big SDA's! You don't need a sub!!

We're all aware of that fact. I don't think anyone here has implied that every system out there absolutely needs a sub, without question.

Actually yes, quite a few people did say that.

No one has addressed my question about recorded music not having much content below about 32Hz. I still believe, based on listening to a lot of music, there are relatively few instances of recorded music hitting much below 32-35Hz. Sure there are examples, I'm sure of Classical and perhaps some live recordings, but on the whole there isn't that much. I get a lot more bass from the 1C's from movie soundtracks than music, so I know they are capable of more but the content just isn't there for most popular music.

To me, as I stated before, if the musical content isn't there, then the sub is emphasizing the bass that you do seem to hear when using a sub. It's boosting the output at the same frequency that a full range floorstander is already producing.

Subs are great for multi-channel music DVD's and movies because they are mastered to emphasize the lower bass, but I see little use for them in a properly set up 2 channel environment where your main speakers will play the lowest note in 99% of the music on cd.

H9

heiney9

The word sub-woofer is actually a misnomer. A sub should not play frequencies above about 30Hz, but they do and many cheaper subs can't even play much below that.

A sub-woofer should play only at frequencies below that of a floorstander. The really, really expensive subs do, but most don't. And these arbitrary crossover points built into AVR's aren't the best way to integrate a sub unless your main speakers are really incapable of producing lower bass.

So perhaps if you had a very sophisticated x-over and a really, really nice *true* subwoofer there could be some advantages. I choose not the invest the money (because it could be quite costly to do it correctly) or time into this area because, for me personally, the possible advantages just aren't worth it and I'm not convinced most recorded music has much content below what my floorstanders produce.

I think it's funny some of the same guys unwilling to use tone controls are A-OK with using a sub that colors the sound so much.

H9

leroyjr1

I'd like to add when I owned the bigger SRS's and dual MP4K subs the SRS's hit just as hard and dug just as deep as the subs, so they wasn't needed for 2 channel and I was satisfied. Other speakers that I've owned definitely needed them. I think with a good musical sub like a JL Fathom or Velodyne DD series it'll be a big plus to a 2 channel system. I'm very interested in seeing what subs people were using in there 2 channel system that didn't like them or the people that believe 2 channel shouldn't consist of a sub have they ever tried using one? The bigger 15" PR sda's are the only speakers I've heard that didnt need any lower end reinforcement, all the others did IMO.

heiney9

heiney9 wrote: »

I think it's funny some of the same guys unwilling to use tone controls are A-OK with using a sub that colors the sound so much.

H9

Since I can't edit..........let me clarify. I should have said:

I think it's funny some of the same guys unwilling to use tone controls are A-OK with using a sub that *could* color the sound so much.

H9

heiney9

leroyjr1 wrote: »

I'd like to add when I owned the bigger SRS's and dual MP4K subs the SRS's hit just as hard and dug just as deep as the subs, so they wasn't needed for 2 channel and I was satisfied. Other speakers that I've owned definitely needed them. I think with a good musical sub like a JL Fathom or Velodyne DD series it'll be a big plus to a 2 channel system. I'm very interested in seeing what subs people were using in there 2 channel system that didn't like them or the people that believe 2 channel shouldn't consist of a sub have they ever tried using one? The bigger 15" PR sda's are the only speakers I've heard that didnt need any lower end reinforcement, all the others did IMO.

You do realize the measured freq response for SRS's and 1C's don't vary by much. Again set-up and room, gear, etc play a part in it. Also measurements don't tell you everything, but they aren't that far off atleast according to the measurements done by Stereo Review in the 80's. Do the SRS's have more bass at certain freq, most likely.....again not that far off.

1C's (25-18,000 Khz) +/- 5dB

SRS (24-20,000 Khz) +/- 4dB

heiney9

I still want to know where this "musical content" is coming from for all you sub owners who sware the music digs deeper when using a sub with full range speakers that are capable of producing the same content?

I don't want a singular, specific example here and there, because I know there are exceptions out there of recordings that have lower bass content. No one has convinced me, nor have I heard of an example where a sub in full range 2ch system isn't slightly enhancing, coloring or boosting certain bass frequencies to give the allusion of extra or lower bass response. That's exactly why I didn't like the LSi 9's. Everyone says the bass is prodigous, it just has an upper mid-bass hump that sounds good until you realize how much it colors the music. Nothing wrong if that tone suits your listening tastes. For me, after awhile, it sounded to unnatural.

H9

dorourke07

The sub is crossed at 35hz and the gain is less than half. Just enough to cover the bottom end if needed. The 9's are the big players.

heiney9

I have heard one system with dual subs that impressed me. In a very, very large lower level of a friends home. He had Revel Ultima Salon's for mains, dual Veodyne DD15's (the expensive ones, $3K a piece, IIRC). Mark Levinson mono's and a full blown Lexicon processor.

It was geared for HT based on the processor and center speaker which was a mathcing Revel with it's own Levinson mono. It's sounded incredible.............it should have since there was about $35-40K worth of gear there and it was done properly, still HT though.

The same friend has the same speakers (minus the center), same Levinson amps all run by Meridian gear in a 2ch dedicated room.............guess what no subs this time!!! And it sounds even better.

H9

thesurfer

heiney9 wrote: »

Since I can't edit..........let me clarify. I should have said:

I think it's funny some of the same guys unwilling to use tone controls are A-OK with using a sub that *could* color the sound so much.

H9

Thats what ive been saying all along,, if the music does not go that low,, your simply boosting the bass effect, in other words, another form of coloring the bass effect, Ive been to many stadium concerts, and sat up front,, never, once felt the bass,,, To me it has alot to do with the music,, also, alot of folks have a differant OP, to what coloring music is,, The same guys that say using Tone controls, EQ,s and any form of boosting, Is for the Lost,,, yet, in most cases,, there doing the same, with a Sub,,

heiney9

I'm not saying yay or nay on the use of a sub.........do what makes you happy, but to integrate a sub properly into a 2ch system it takes some effort and a a great deal of expense (relatively speaking) to do it right and then, in my case, the payoff isn't worth it because my main speakers do just a good a job on their own.

Those who are saying it's a must need to dial it back a bit, because you all should know there are no absolutes in this hobby.

I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong, but I don't think you (those using subs in 2ch w/full range speakers) should say I'm wrong and you're right. In the big picture there is no specified way to participate in this hobby. I've given my reasons and others have given theirs.

H9