You don't need close to 200wpc

heiney9

A lot of questions surround this topic. Here's one take on it. I happen to believe this and experience it everytime I fire up the main rig. I still have yet to find the limits of 30wpc.

Is this a generalization that works for everyone in every situation? No, but I'd take 10-30 premium wpc over any of the 100-200wpc standard fare that passes as mid-fi audio any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It always has been, and ALWAYS will be about quality over quantity unless you are looking for ear bleeding spl's. In my book 95dB and up are starting the ear bleeding.......

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt5/f3.html

H9

RuSsMaN

Nothing to ad, except a nod of agreement.

mhardy6647

ummm... preachin' to the choir.
I am pretty durn satisfied with 3.5 watts per channel.

ben62670

I am in agreement too. When I had first started here I drank the 200wpc Kool-Aid, and it is just Crap. In mediocre equipment I would still say 100wpc is good. Doubling that power rating only gets you 3db. It takes a while for newbies to get over the numbers game, but many do finally figure it out over time.
Cheers
Ben

michaeljhsda2

Agree.

mhardy6647

In fairness, there are some good sounding high powered amplifiers... and there are speakers that do require such.

Jstas

mhardy6647 wrote: »

... and there are speakers that do require such.

I was gonna say, try running a set of Amazings on 30 watts.

I had them on 70 watts for a short while when I first got them and it might as well been a whisper.

silvertuner

harry has definitely helped me figure this out, and that tubes definitely do sound better to my ears. listened to a pair of model 7's last night, on a 4 watt max tube amp, and could easily have that as a main rig lol. ive been from 125wpc, to 80wpc, and now im at 16wpc and the happiest i have ever been.

heiney9

mhardy6647 wrote: »

In fairness, there are some good sounding high powered amplifiers... and there are speakers that do require such.

There are, I agree. I just posted this as a different look at the age old question we get here on CP all the time. If you have ScompRacer's ESL's or Carver Amazings or Ted's Soundlabs or Maggies, etc. 10wpc won't cut it. But all the ludicris people suggesting 200-300wpc for Polk Monitors or SDA's or whatever standard loudspeaker is simply a huge fallacy. Even for LSi's.

Just presenting the other side as I see it with an article to explain why it's so for many rigs even in modest sized rooms.

Does that mean a 10wpc T amp is going to get the job done like the F3, hell no.......but it is possible to have a low power, stellar sounding, transistor amp which is superbly executed without spending a lot of coin.

There is a First Watt F3 on 'gon right now and I'm just itching to pull the trigger but I really don't have a solid use for it other than to compare/contrast to the Aleph 30.

H9

mhardy6647

Jstas wrote: »

I was gonna say, try running a set of Amazings on 30 watts.

I had them on 70 watts for a short while when I first got them and it might as well been a whisper.

Yeah... Magneplanars are like that, too ('specially the early ones).

On the other hand, I have in my basement a pair of AR-3 speakers running on a push-pull EL84 amp (Maggotbox console amp; good for about 12 wpc). Nearfield, they sound absolutely dandy.

Generalizations in hifi are about as useless, and as dangerous, as in any other walk of life :-) Empiricism is hard to beat. (not a response to the previous post, just an observation in the context of this topic, and most other ones in hifi)

heiney9

Jstas wrote: »

I was gonna say, try running a set of Amazings on 30 watts.

I had them on 70 watts for a short while when I first got them and it might as well been a whisper.

You guys need to read what I said. Never said or even hinted it would do that. Geez, did anyone even read the article where they reiterate what I said!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this a generalization that works for everyone in every situation? No,

heiney9

This is why I hate having a discussion about this stuff. People don't read or comprehend and then start tearing it apart.

Never said 10-30wpc would work for every speaker in every situation..........the article states that a few times, if people had read it.

Come on guys.........read before commenting.

H9

nguyendot

I need to get into tubes for 2ch... I'm sorely lacking in that arena. Anyone care to help? lol

jinjuku

I might pick up a Yaqin MS-20L for giggles. Pure class-a all the way.

Jstas

heiney9 wrote: »

You guys need to read what I said. Never said or even hinted it would do that. Geez, did anyone even read the article where they reiterate what I said!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, didn't read the article but wasn't trying to dump on the thread either.

As an alternate to a pair of Amazings being driven by 575 watts per channel, I have a set of KLH 17's being driven by 7 watts per channel.

I've run SDA 2B's on that same 7 watts per channel.

I have a pair of R15's being run on 22 watts per channel.

I also have an isobaric configuration, 2 channel subwoofer being pushed by about 45 watts per channel (90 watts total) and it still hits 110 dB at it's tuned frequency.

I'm all about low power, dude. I don't think one needs to mortgage a modest house to be able to afford a stereo of high fidelity.

mhardy6647

Jstas wrote: »

I'm all about low power, dude. I don't think one needs to mortgage a modest house to be able to afford a stereo of high fidelity.

Ditto.

I wasn't commenting on the article. I have no comments on the article.
Sorry, I guess I missed the point. Ciao.

EndersShadow

Would love to get some tubes to A+B with the HK I got...be interesting to see what kinda difference I would notice if any....

reeltrouble1

I look forward to your visit....bring the aleph lets try it who knows....the thing is to try things you have to have things.....there were plenty of oohs and ahs at Ga Polkfest...the gear ranged from 20wpc to 250wpc...tubed and sand..its audio, its almost as good as a bi amorphodite's orgy on a three day drunk.

RT1--Go Fast, Go Hard, Go Large, Go Smaall, but Go.

Erik Tracy

My take on the article was that, given his setup and the amp in question - it had ample "headroom" to deal with peaks above his "normal" listening levels.

Isn't that really what all the fuss is over numbers - clean initial power and then - clean headroom (which may or may not be of any vendor claim or spec)?

In some previous posts, some of the 'other factors' in estimating power needed included speaker efficiency, distance to listening spot, room acoustics, user preference for sound levels, and the dynamic range of the music - just like the article mentioned.

heiney9

Jstas wrote: »

Nope, didn't read the article but wasn't trying to dump on the thread either.

John I didn't take it as dumping at all nor mHardy's comments. Just reiterating my inital comment and how it paralleled the article. I still think running 88dB Gallo 3.1's to 90+ dB in a large room with 10wpc is worth pointing out to those who think many watts = good sound, etc.

H9

heiney9

You guys commenting about getting tubes in the mix realize this isn't a tube amp, right? It's a 15wpc JFET amp that puts out 10wpc @ 4ohms. It's OK to talk tubes and tube experiences but from some of the comments about wanting tubes, I get the impression you think I'm talking about tubes in this particular thread.

Tubes are good and they are low powered and do a great job as well.

Carry on

H9

markmarc

Quality beats quantity every time by far in audio.

Ricardo

Those Gallos are really easy to drive.

Where is Cathy?

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

Where is Cathy?

Cathy is pretty set in her ways, and that's just fine. I'm starting to get set in my ways about 1 or 2 gain stage lower power amps, unless I have a very difficult load to drive.

Next up for me is the XA30.5, again 30wpc 2 gain stages, etc. Really, really digging the sound of very simple, high quality circuits. Probably never go back to high power stuff, if I can help it.

Simpler, lower power transistor's and especially tubes is where the sweet spot is for me.

H9

bigaudiofanatic

I am at agreement with my ML's being powered by a carver giving them 300 wpc I tap out way before they or the amp does. I have a feeling I am around 45 watts MAYBE. All I know is that amp is laughing at me it does not even get warm.

cnh

Or as Nelson Pass would say: " I monitor my system with a scope on the amp outputs, and I usually set it on a scale such that a 4 watt amp can fill the screen peak-peak. My room is 30' x 30' and I'm not shy about levels, but I don't exceed the 4 watts with the kinds of speakers I like. It was partly this that prompted the direction and name for FirstWatt."

From H9's article above. I think this is a nice summary.

The question I have as someone who is not an expert on amp designs, is can we really compare a good class A output at low wattage with other classes.

In other words, in my rather 'simplistic' understanding of things, One, we rarely use more than a FEW watts of the power we have at hand unless we're trying to lose our hearing?

And TWO, in many lower wattage SS amps, a good class A output with the fewest interruptions in the power going directly to your speakers can generally sound quite good, and LOUD enough on 'most' speakers (not all, as mentioned above).

Please correct me if I am wrong. And, also extend and elaborate.

Thanks..an interesting read!

cnh

heiney9

To go a bit off topic and again show my Pass "nerdiness". With his designs it's about picking the absolute best parts and using simple circuits to create some great sounding amps.

Anyone can throw together a design with higher power and lots of devices in the signal path and then crank up the negative feedback to get it to measure well.

That's not the goal.

cnh, if you really want to learn go to Pass Labs site and read the articles as well as the owners manuals to the different lines. It's a wealth of great information. Nelson has a good way with words that allow us non-techie types to be able to relate.

H9

heiney9

cnh,

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/leaving_class_a.pdf

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/leaving_class_a.pdf

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/seclassa.pdf

cnh

Thanks Brock I will do that!

cnh

dkg999

Magnepan 1.6's driven by a Cayin 30 wpc tube integrated amp, nearfield in a small room, the sound was incredible.

LuSh

I agree completely.

Having said that, the people on the net that seem most anxious (there are exceptions to this rule) to push high wattage numbers to inexperienced listeners are in fact inexperienced listeners who have relied more on their eyes and 'researching' online rather then listening for themselves. I believe people that have been in the hobby a little longer (10-20years) have had the good fortune to listen to more equipment and have come to terms with using their ears as the ultimate test ground. While theory is good, those that have listened to enough gear have come to terms that every theory is just that and sometimes there are exceptions.

Most (not all) high wattage believers I've come across diverse themselves in the Home Theater realm which is almost entirely based on numbers, features and specifications (don't get me started about ACD) and very little about sound.