You don't need close to 200wpc

tonyb

Whats the budget ? We can suggest amps all day but it's worthless unless we know what range to work in.

BtrSound

The sensitivity of my speakers is as follows:

RTIA9: 90db 50-500 w/channel
RTIA7: 89db 20-300 w/channel
CSIA6: 90db 20-200 w/channel
TSI500: 91db 20-275 w/channel

As far as price range, I would prefer to buy used because it seems like you can get a lot more bang for the buck that way. I would say i want the best bang for the buck for <$800+/-. I was thinking a 5 channel amp for my A9's. A7's, CSIA6, and then just running the two sides the TSI500 through my receiver (Denon 3311). I was also thinking between 150 and 200 wpc (If even necessary), because with most amplifiers putting out more than their ratings when only 1 or two channels are running such as in a home theater environment and not wanting to damage my center channel.

Since I am a newbie, I would greatly appreciate advise on this as well. It does seem like the 7 channel amplifiers are still fairly expensive. I do greatly appreciate your assistance in this matter.

my room is about 20X25 and I have 20ft ceilings.

TroyD

BtrSound wrote: »

I am thinking about getting a Rotel RB-985, which is rated at 100wpc and a DIM of 220 wpc. You can see from my signature what my set up is. I primarily watch movies, and when I listen to stereo, I like to listen in Multi Channel, so I do like it loud. Do you all think that this amp would be a good choice or do you think I should step up to something bigger? I am a newbe. I have read this thread, and am more confused if anything, so you all are the experts. I also noticed that you all have higher end amplifiers, which I assume also makes a difference.

here are the Amp specs: http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rb985_eng.pdf

If this is not a good choice, what would you recommend. I plan on using the 5 channels fro the front three and rear two and leaving the side two powered by the Denon, since they are used the least.

Also, it's max current output is 40 amps, should I look for something higher?

Either one has all the power you need. Pick the one that sounds better to you.

BDT

tonyb

Rotel,Adcom,B&K, Parasound, Sunfire, the list can go on and on. Check out Audiogon for used gear,or your local craigslist. Don't forget to pick up 5 cables to connect it all up. Let us know what you end up with,and your impressions.

steveinaz

...and what happened to the "let your ears be the judge" camp?

This is a very general observation, to a topic loaded with variables. The conversation went from not needing anywhere near 200 watts, and quickly switched gears to quality vs quantity--well, ya think?

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

...and what happened to the "let your ears be the judge" camp?

This is a very general observation, to a topic loaded with variables. The conversation went from not needing anywhere near 200 watts, and quickly switched gears to quality vs quantity--well, ya think?

That's my point Steve, quality should always be at the forefront, not specs on a piece of paper. This thread has taken several turns, most noteably the tube turn. I wasn't speaking of tubes initially, but it certainly fits this discussion.

In order for me to obtain the same "quality" I'm getting now in a 200wpc amp I'd have to spend a lot of $$$ and the 200wpc would be wasted in my current rig because I can't/don't use the power I have available now. Does that mean someone can go out and buy a run of the mill 30wpc amp and get the same results? No probably not.

My point is.............well, I;ve stated it several times in this thread.

H9

mhardy6647

I think it would be interesting to poll the respondents to this thread and ask them if they have listened to (let's say: at least 30 minutes) a high-quality, low-powered integrated amplifier or power amp(s), vacuum tube or solid state, on appropriately sensitive speakers.

5 watts per channel or less?
10 watts per channel or less?
30 watts per channel or less?

madmax

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think it would be interesting to poll the respondents to this thread and ask them if they have listened to (let's say: at least 30 minutes) a high-quality, low-powered integrated amplifier or power amp(s), vacuum tube or solid state, on appropriately sensitive speakers.

5 watts per channel or less?
10 watts per channel or less?
30 watts per channel or less?

I have a lot of hours logged with the following:

Transcendent 1.5wpc-Doesn't get any better with complex tones, actually recreates the recorded material in the way it was meant to be. It can be glorious when the recording calls for it and can flop on its face if there is nothng on the recording preventing it.

Yaking 300B 8wpc-Beautiful peacefull pleasing tones but can carry its own weight on all music. Not as detailed as the Transcendent but does not flop on its face when the recorded material is not very good.

Dayton 30wpc chip amp-A little on the bright side but the quality is there. Don't confuse quality with cost here given the $99 price tag. Dead quiet, forceful, cutting detail and quick.

Manley 100wpc in tetrode mode-More volume than you could ever need with efficient speakers and as quiet as a wooded area in the middle of nowhere. It does everything very well with a nice live type sound when called for. Very full and forceful sound while at the same time can be quiet, peaceful and precise.

zingo

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think it would be interesting to poll the respondents to this thread and ask them if they have listened to (let's say: at least 30 minutes) a high-quality, low-powered integrated amplifier or power amp(s), vacuum tube or solid state, on appropriately sensitive speakers.

5 watts per channel or less?
10 watts per channel or less?
30 watts per channel or less?

Poll: Which Low Power Amplifiers Have You Listened To?

mhardy6647

madmax wrote: »

I have a lot of hours logged with the following:

Transcendent 1.5wpc-Doesn't get any better with complex tones, actually recreates the recorded material in the way it was meant to be. It can be glorious when the recording calls for it and can flop on its face if there is nothng on the recording preventing it.

Yaking 300B 8wpc-Beautiful peacefull pleasing tones but can carry its own weight on all music. Not as detailed as the Transcendent but does not flop on its face when the recorded material is not very good.

Dayton 30wpc chip amp-A little on the bright side but the quality is there. Don't confuse quality with cost here given the $99 price tag. Dead quiet, forceful, cutting detail and quick.

Manley 100wpc in tetrode mode-More volume than you could ever need with efficient speakers and as quiet as a wooded area in the middle of nowhere. It does everything very well with a nice live type sound when called for. Very full and forceful sound while at the same time can be quiet, peaceful and precise.

I've had an urge to build one of those little Transcendent OTL amps...

BtrSound

Ok, Hopefully this is the last question before I buy my Amp. I am rewireing my home and entertainment center. I was going to run 1 20 amp outlet and line to my built in just for the amp and one for all my other componets (my television is on it's own amp on the other wall). I am thinking about using a power conditioner, but am new to that as well. Can one power conditioner power all my componets and the amp? Is this a good practice? Should I buy two power conditioners? What the heck do I do with those things?

heiney9

BtrSound wrote: »

I am thinking about using a power conditioner, but am new to that as well. Can one power conditioner power all my componets and the amp? Is this a good practice? Should I buy two power conditioners? What the heck do I do with those things?

Please start another thread, not polite to thread jack this far off topic. Also there have been some very long discussions on that very topic recently, please do a search.

H9

BtrSound

I am sorry about that. I did do a search but apparently not very well.

madmax

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I've had an urge to build one of those little Transcendent OTL amps...

Do it. Cheap, easy to build, unbelievable sound. It will transport you from your livingroom to the artists space.

Tour2ma

^Transcendent... wasn't that a BluesMDPicker favorite? And where is that ol' ****?

You don't need close to 200wpc

Watts need got to do with it...

Sorry I could not resist.

h9,
Got a feeling your 30 wpc tiger is, shall we say, conservatively rated... As I read on page 2, headroom, P2P amperes are all spec's that have to be considered in quantifying amp performance.

FTGV

Tour2ma wrote: »

Got a feeling your 30 wpc tiger is, shall we say, conservatively rated..

Not really ,by nature of its design theres not a lot of extra headroom with it's lowish voltage rails and single ended output stage.

F1nut

Tour2ma wrote: »

^Transcendent... wasn't that a BluesMDPicker favorite? And where is that ol' ****?

Favorite? Not really. He got rid of it and replaced it and the efficient speakers with a high powered amp and some not so efficient speakers. The result was a marked improvement in the sound.

Tour2ma

F1nut wrote: »

Favorite? Not really. He got rid of it and replaced it and the efficient speakers with a high powered amp and some not so efficient speakers. The result was a marked improvement in the sound.

LOL... My friend, you are nothing, if not consistant... :biggrin:
You forget, I've been away awhile.

Damn... I wanted those Cains he had...

FTGV wrote: »

Not really ,by nature of its design theres not a lot of extra headroom with it's lowish voltage rails and single ended output stage.

OK, but does it have a published P2P current rating?

heiney9

Bruce,

Here you go if you want to read more about it, the owners manual

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/old%20product%20manuals/a30manr0.pdf

H9

madmax

F1nut wrote: »

Favorite? Not really. He got rid of it and replaced it and the efficient speakers with a high powered amp and some not so efficient speakers. The result was a marked improvement in the sound.

Strictly a function of his speakers and what they were meant to do.

Tour2ma

heiney9 wrote: »

Bruce,
Here you go if you want to read more about it, the owners manual
http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/old%20product%20manuals/a30manr0.pdf

Thanks, got my read on.

Now do you have a link to the low power amp?

Tour2ma

Tour2ma wrote: »

Thanks, got my read on.

Now do you have a link to the low power amp?

h9,
I fear my above "question" came off really snarky. For that, I apologize.

Point I was trying to make is that your Pass can put out 200 wpc into 8-ohms.

Does that make it a 200 wpc amp? No... but it doesn't make it a 30 wpc amp either.

FTGV

Tour2ma wrote: »

,


Point I was trying to make is that your Pass can put out 200 wpc into 8-ohms.

Huh?The hi operating bias means it contantly draws 200 watts from the wall but with Class A being only 25 ish percent efficient only 30 of those watts are usable to drive an 8 ohm load.The rest is lost in heat.

virtualdean

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Yeah...
Generalizations in hifi are about as useless, and as dangerous, as in any other walk of life :-) Empiricism is hard to beat. (not a response to the previous post, just an observation in the context of this topic, and most other ones in hifi)

+1! I find most opinions need to be labeleds as such.

Tour2ma

FTGV wrote: »

Huh?The hi operating bias means it contantly draws 200 watts from the wall but with Class A being only 25 ish percent efficient only 30 of those watts are usable to drive an 8 ohm load.The rest is lost in heat.

True that Class A’s are at full output all the time, so AC draw is constant and every bit of energy not required by the music signal is dissipated as heat. But the quoted AC draw is not how I arrived at my 200 wpc figure.

Pass Aleph Owner's Manual wrote:

SPECIFICATIONS
Power Output 30 watts/ch @ 8 ohms, 40 watts @ 4 ohms
Maximum Output 25 volts, 5 amps
Distortion (1KHz) 0.2% @ 30 watts, 8 ohms

A 5 ampere maximum output into an 8-ohm load (assumed; the actual is likely somewhat lower) yields a power output of 5x5x8 = 200 W. Go the voltage route and from the 25 V max., you get a lower (25x25)/8 = 78 W (again, 8-ohm assumed and is likely lower, but here reduced load increases the resulting power). IMO, the lower of these figures is closer to the amp’s true, continuous power both channels fully driven rating. That's the basis for my earlier, "Does that make it a 200 wpc amp? No... but it doesn't make it a 30 wpc amp either", comment.

If the above is close to the truth, then the remaining question is, 'Why pick a 30 wpc power rating?' I don’t know for sure, but I suspect the palatability of its distortion spec (TDH?) was a consideration. It would not be out of the question for it to be a full 2% @ 60 W output.

Look, all the above is not meant to convince anyone that what they hear is wrong, that Pass is a poser, or anything of the sort. I used spec’s nearly exclusively to make my first audio purchases almost 40-years ago, and vowed never to make that mistake again. I truly believe that good sound is in the ears of the beholder… honest… I really do.

Where my path diverges from others in this and many other threads, e.g., the Loudness thread, is that when I hear an improvement (or read of others hearing improvement), if at all possible, I try to gain an understanding of why what is heard is heard. All of us know there is a reason; some of us just care more about finding it. (Not meant as a slight to those that could care less about the reason.) …and, if I can measure and quantify the reason, thereby satisfying my inner engineer, then so much the better. (Yup, I are a big, old, right-brained en-gin-ear, Chemical to be precise.)

So if I have an observation, if I think I have an understanding, I post it. Not to proclaim my single view to illuminate the world, but to see if others either share it or challenge it with facts. Either response is equally good by me so long as it increases my understanding. Simple “yes, it is… no, it’s not” arguments hold no interest for me. That’s why, for the most part, I steer clear of all wire discussions…

mdaudioguy

Tour2ma wrote: »

^Transcendent... wasn't that a BluesMDPicker favorite? And where is that ol' ****?

In FLA, I guess, but haven't seen him on here in a while... I acquired his Monitor 11s before he moved. I just wish I was currently putting them to better use... soon enough! In the meantime, I've got time to consider amplification for my planned 2-channel listening space... Tubes were suggested, IIRC.

stuwee

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I've had an urge to build one of those little Transcendent OTL amps...

Hehe! or just get a nice stack of Julius Futtermen OTL-1's http://www.jacmusic.com/html/articles/Harvey-Rosenberg/futterman.htm

Gar-Un-Teed to keep the room nice and toasty, I've never had the pleasure of listening to them but, apparently they work magic on electrostat's that you and I love so much!

heiney9

Tour2ma wrote: »

True that Class A’s are at full output all the time, so AC draw is constant and every bit of energy not required by the music signal is dissipated as heat. But the quoted AC draw is not how I arrived at my 200 wpc figure.

A 5 ampere maximum output into an 8-ohm load (assumed; the actual is likely somewhat lower) yields a power output of 5x5x8 = 200 W. Go the voltage route and from the 25 V max., you get a lower (25x25)/8 = 78 W (again, 8-ohm assumed and is likely lower, but here reduced load increases the resulting power). IMO, the lower of these figures is closer to the amp’s true, continuous power both channels fully driven rating. That's the basis for my earlier, "Does that make it a 200 wpc amp? No... but it doesn't make it a 30 wpc amp either", comment.

If the above is close to the truth, then the remaining question is, 'Why pick a 30 wpc power rating?' I don’t know for sure, but I suspect the palatability of its distortion spec (TDH?) was a consideration. It would not be out of the question for it to be a full 2% @ 60 W output.

Look, all the above is not meant to convince anyone that what they hear is wrong, that Pass is a poser, or anything of the sort. I used spec’s nearly exclusively to make my first audio purchases almost 40-years ago, and vowed never to make that mistake again. I truly believe that good sound is in the ears of the beholder… honest… I really do.

Where my path diverges from others in this and many other threads, e.g., the Loudness thread, is that when I hear an improvement (or read of others hearing improvement), if at all possible, I try to gain an understanding of why what is heard is heard. All of us know there is a reason; some of us just care more about finding it. (Not meant as a slight to those that could care less about the reason.) …and, if I can measure and quantify the reason, thereby satisfying my inner engineer, then so much the better. (Yup, I are a big, old, right-brained en-gin-ear, Chemical to be precise.)

So if I have an observation, if I think I have an understanding, I post it. Not to proclaim my single view to illuminate the world, but to see if others either share it or challenge it with facts. Either response is equally good by me so long as it increases my understanding. Simple “yes, it is… no, it’s not” arguments hold no interest for me. That’s why, for the most part, I steer clear of all wire discussions…

Bruce, read this link. The Pass XA30.5 is the next evolution of the Aleph30. While it's a more robust amplifier and certainly has a few more design features it's essentially what could be considered the "current" interpretation of the Aleph line of amplifiers.

Read the measurements page and you'll understand why I started this entire thread. Rated power on a sheet of paper means nothing. This will also confirm your hypothetical mathematics in showing 30wpc isn't always 30wpc.

If you are really curious go back read the entire review, large amounts of power are not everything in this hobby and reading this review one begins to understand why there are differences in amplifers that have nothing to do with a "rated" wpc on a piece of paper.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa305-power-amplifier-measurements

Full review for those that are interested.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/pass_labs_xa305_power_amplifier/index.html

This will be my next amplifer.

H9

heiney9

I'm not saying the Aleph 30 can reach those kind of output numbers as you'd have to scale it down a bit because the XA30.5 has more output devices, more filter caps and a larger Torrid. Also the XA30.5 at some point shifts into A/B mode when pushed extremely hard. That's one of the newer design features as well as a few other patents that make it more extreme than the Aleph 30.

H9

steveinaz

Brock
What do you think about the aleph 5?