You don't need close to 200wpc

megasat16

Oh Vey...why low power stuff keeps going on and on and on?

steveinaz

Brock lied, his amp puts out 153 watts @ 8ohms before clipping....:biggrin:
(see Stereophile "measurements" segment)

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Oh Vey...why low power stuff keeps going on and on and on?

You don''t like the thread..........feel free to steer clear.

H9

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Brock lied, his amp puts out 153 watts @ 8ohms before clipping....:biggrin:
(see Stereophile "measurements" segment)

Not really Steve that's the XA30.5 (rated at 30wpc @ 8).........but the same Juxtaposition occurs for large rated wpc amps that put out less than what is on paper. Again wpc is one very small indicator of an amps potential and it's sound and performance characteristic.

Yet everyone clings to that singular spec like it's some golden number that affirms they have superiority.

H9

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Brock
What do you think about the aleph 5?

Excellent choice, basically the stereo version of the later Aleph 60 (mono's). It's essentially a higher powered Aleph 3 with balanced inputs.

H9

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

I'm not saying the Aleph 30 can reach those kind of output numbers ...

No kidding,other than the 30 watt Class A rating it's compring apples and oranges.The X30.5 has a push pull output stage and it could have (according to those measurements) been marketed as a 130 watt Class A/B unit .The first thirty of those watts are Class A before transitioning into Class B giving it several DB of extra headroom.

The Aleph 30 on the other hand has a single ended output stage.Therefore when it is driven beyond its limit does not transition into Class B but instead waveform clipping begins to occur.So I suspect the real power output figures for the Aleph 30 are not far off the stated figure of 30 (very good)watts.

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

You don''t like the thread..........feel free to steer clear.

H9

:biggrin: That's one possibility! But but it's not even no longer low power amp thread, I think it's been steered to fan boy thread?

You don't think so, hum?

heiney9

Hey Mega, if people are going to ask questions I'm going to try and answer them. Feel free to discuss other amps in detail, etc. Plus it's my thread I can write what I want :biggrin:.

Carry on!

H9

FTGV

megasat16 wrote: »

:biggrin: That's one possibility! But but it's not even no longer low power amp thread, I think it's been steered to fan boy thread?

You don't think so, hum?

James are you causing a rufus again?

heiney9

FTGV wrote: »

James are you causing a rufus again?

Yes Fred, he is......:biggrin:

rubin

Lots of amp power isn't neccessary to have a good sounding system. Quality is what is more important. Most of us realize that, but if quantity and quality floats your boat.... what the heck, do whatever makes you happy.

megasat16

FTGV wrote: »

James are you causing a rufus again?

I am just jealous of H9 Low Power amp thread...

I can't tell anyone to go BIG since he started this thread.

heiney9 wrote: »

Yes Fred, he is......:biggrin:

Since you insist, here is one for you.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1301791586&/Pass-Labs-XA30.5

I know another guy who used to have the XA30.5 but he sold it recently to go BIG with Pass XA monobloc. :biggrin:

He got a pair of Focal 1027BE so the XA30.5 doesn't cut in. He is now happy with the newfound power for his Focal.

Anyway, nothing hurts with a couple extra watts but if your speakers are 99dB/w/m, 1W is plentiful and that's where the Aleph 5, Aleph 30, Aleph 60 are for.

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

but if your speakers are 99dB/w/m, 1W is plentiful and that's where the Aleph 5, Aleph 30, Aleph 60 are for.

Well my experience is different since the 1C's are 90db/w/m and I have absolutely no issues, as well as it being able to run a pair of LSi 15's in a large room which are 88db/w/m. We had to run it hard to get it start to clip.

But I'm not saying it will run all types of speakers equally or at ear bleeding spl's.

As always YMMV

H9

megasat16

Brock,

How much amp power one needs to listen at a comfortable SPL level depends on many things. Especially for me, the mood and the genre plays a big part while I listen.

I listen to some music very loud and some music very soft depending on my mood.

Anyway, a rhetorical question - "If you have a choice between XA30.5 and X350 for the same amount of coins, what would you get?". Well, I guess it really depends on the taste and the golden ears or the tin ears and a slew of other ambiguity and synergy.

heiney9

Easy, XA30.5 unless I had an larger room and/or hard to drive speakers.

H9

FTGV

The X30.5 looks plenty capable in it's own right.

heiney9

Mega, can I ask if you have spent any quality time with the Aleph 30? Based on your general comments about lower powered amps and the comment about the Aleph 5, 30 and 60 needing 99dB/w/m to sound good, I'd say no you haven't.

Because you are missing part of the picture and based on my personal experience with the Aleph you are wrong.

Drive, scale and dynamics are all there in spades, moreso than most amps I've heard in my rig which are rated on paper at 3-7 times the wattage.

Please expound on the times you've listened to the Aleph on less than 99dB/w/m speakers and it didn't sound right to you? I believe your comment was a general assumption about lower power amplifiers.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Easy, XA30.5 unless I had an larger room and/or hard to drive speakers.

H9

It's easy to make a decision based on the head and from what one knows from heart.

But that decision would become a bit too hard if you let your ears be the judge and listen both amps side by side with a pile of CDs from different genres.

What it counts for me is to able to play Classical-ism at the realistic level without sacrificing the sound-stage image.

FTGV wrote: »

The X30.5 looks plenty capable in it's own right.

No doubt it is. But what I am getting to is about the good quality high power Class AB amps may not sounds inferior to H9's favorite Class A SE. It really depends on a pair of golden or trained ears to hear the differences.

I think the watts one need to play high dynamic passages in music will differentiate these quality watts between the low power and higher power amps.

But the difference between high and low power amps will be subtle if H9 is using something like 99dB/w/m (it's just a figure). I think anything about 94dB/w/m would be a good start for low power amps.

heiney9 wrote: »

Mega, can I ask if you have spent any quality time with the Aleph 30? Based on your general comments about lower powered amps and the comment about the Aleph 5, 30 and 60 needing 99dB/w/m to sound good, I'd say no you haven't.

Because you are missing part of the picture and based on my personal experience with the Aleph you are wrong.

Drive, scale and dynamics are all there in spades, moreso than most amps I've heard in my rig which are rated on paper at 3-7 times the wattage.

Please expound on the times you've listened to the Aleph on less than 99dB/w/m speakers and it didn't sound right to you? I believe your comment was a general assumption about lower power amplifiers.

H9

H9, No, I have not heard Aleph 5, 30, 60 at all. I thought about getting a pair of Aleph 60 if that counts.

But I think you are missing my point. These aleph could be a lot happier with the higher sensitivity speakers than the SDA1C.

Please see my above post. Do you need more watts or not really depends on the speakers, the size of room you have and what genre of music you listen to as well as your mood and listening habits.

If you are going to disregard mood, listening habits, music genre and will be using the low power amps like Aleph 5, 30, 60, you really need to start looking at very efficient speakers above 94dB/w/m (just a number out of my head and it's not based on scientific prove you need more sensitivity or can do with less). But as it has been discussed many times in this thread already, the better the sensitivity of your speakers, the less chance of collapsing sound-stage while playing all kinds of Classical and other type of music.

Be aware that I am not saying or implying the better sensitivity speakers sounds better than their counterparts at all. It's just that the better sensitivity speakers demand less from the amp so the sound-stage may not collapsed (even if it sounds like someone's gassing).


Anyway, back to basics. It would be really wrong to say the SDA1C with Aleph 30 in a small room will cut in for me. I regularly listen to Classicals with deep heavy bass and very strong dynamics. And the bass is where it judges an authority of the low power amp capability to supply enough juice to the speakers without collapsing the sound stage.

I am sure you all know of this though.

heiney9

James, it's wrong of you to dismiss it based on the assumption it won't cut it. I made that mistake in waiting almost 2 years to pull the trigger because I had the same notion as you "30wpc can't be enough to power large speakers". I was dead wrong!!

I am not trying to convice you one way or the other, I know you have much experience in this hobby. I am just pointing out for others that read this thread that your "assumption" is not founded in actually hearing it.

Again, your pulling numbers out of your head and now you've revised down from 99dB/w/m to 94dB/w/m or above w/o having any experience with said amps. I know it's incredibly easy to generalize and I would even give you your generalization if we we were talking the typical 30wpc amp, but we're not.

I am only countering your assumptions so as to keep the playing field level for others that stumble upon this thread. We ran the Aleph 30 hard on a pair of LSi 15's in large room and I did find the limits, but that was very loud. Those speakers are 4ohm and 88dB/w/m. Did other amps of that day in our audio meet play louder (200wpc)? Yes, a little bit. Did they sound as good? Not to my ears (subjective, I know).

All I'm saying is before you use hard generalizations, you should atleast have a little bit of experience with the specific amp(s) I'm talking about. I would never say the Aleph 30 is the end all, be all of amplifiers, nor would I say choose it for a difficult load or someone who absolutely had to live at the extreme SPL level's.

This amp completely surprised me as far as it's capabilities and far out plays everything I've heard in my system in every aspect.

H9

heiney9

FTR, James I always enjoy our discussions. We are probably more in agreement than in disagreement when looking at the entire audio experience.

H9

megasat16

Brock,

I think you misunderstand me. I am not taking a shot at the Aleph or anything at all.

You are right that I am making a generalizing statement that the low power amp is not for everyone and really needs very sensitive speakers.

I am not even talking about what Aleph 5/30/60 can do or can't do. I am saying that Aleph5/30/60 and 91dB/w/m speaker may not cut in for me even if I use the same size room as yours.

The 99dB/w/m I wrote in my very early post is a generalized example when the low power amps (not just the Aleph) will not sacrifice sound quality. It's a number that one should not take it too seriously. It's a number just to express the low power amps need very sensitive speakers without writing 4-5 long sentences. I used a very big number to simply paint the picture without saying much.

I wrote 94dB/w/m now since you become a bit more specific with the Aleph series amps. We are talking about really two different topics. I was generalizing and you are pinpointing so I am trying to talk more realistic numbers based on my real experience.

A couple of years ago, I heard 94dB/w/m speakers at a friend place with 300wpc amps as well as a low power Tube amps. 300wpc is Class AB Grand Integra M510 (mine) and he has the highly acclaimed SE Tube Triode amp. Needless to say, my Onkyo Trumps in everyway and bass has been a really strong point. Of coz, my friend with the Tube amp says the vocals are better with the Tube. I totally expect that from a Tube guy. :biggrin:

Now, I have 60wpc SE Class A SS amp in my possession, it's no slouch compared to Pass amps since mine doubles output at half the Z all the way to 2 ohms, it can push my Carvers to quite satisfactory level. But I do notice a difference in bass while pushed very hard. It's seamless and sounds very nice in everyway if I don't want to play very loud but again, my listening habits varies widely based on the music and the mood.

As far as I can tell, this is a good discussion but we are taking it from different aspects.

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

FTR, James I always enjoy our discussions. We are probably more in agreement than in disagreement when looking at the entire audio experience.

H9

I agree. I think we agree more than we probably know. But you seem to misunderstand that I am talking about Aleph only. I am talking more about the topics than the particular brand or model.

It's audio I love so I try to embrace all brands and models equally even Emotiva. :biggrin:

Ricardo

FTGV

megasat16 wrote: »

. But what I am getting to is about the good quality high power Class AB amps may not sounds inferior to H9's favorite Class A SE.

Agreed

bikerboy

I havent read all of this ongoing saga about low power amps but I did just close the deal on a Pass Aleph 30 just like Brocks amp. I have used a jolida sj-502 50 watt/ch tube amp and a 150 watt/ch B&K ST 202 ss amp for years. So I'm not "into" low power but I know 95% of my listening is at lower volumes and I should be very happy with the amp pushing my sda 2.3 speakers. Quality not quantity is good for me.

zumbo

Currently running 200WPC(Denon POA-2200) into some Minimus 7's to test the amp. Minimus 7's are rated @40W max. For what they are, words can't explain the SQ.

And I know what y'all may think, just like my buddy who came by yesterday. He was floored, and is coming by today to buy my little gems. I told him I would buy them back if they don't sound good on his 100WPC Sony.

Pretty sure I will be buying them back.:eek::biggrin:

sda2mike

zumbo wrote: »

Currently running 200WPC(Denon POA-2200) into some Minimus 7's to test the amp. Minimus 7's are rated @40W max. For what they are, words can't explain the SQ.

And I know what y'all may think, just like my buddy who came by yesterday. He was floored, and is coming by today to buy my little gems. I told him I would buy them back if they don't sound good on his 100WPC Sony.

Pretty sure I will be buying them back.:eek::biggrin:

poor little 7s:eek: as long as you don't get overly enthusiastic with the throttle, they might survive...just don't go crankin any stanley jordan

zumbo

sda2mike wrote: »

poor little 7s:eek: as long as you don't get overly enthusiastic with the throttle, they might survive...just don't go crankin any stanley jordan

I am just using the gain on the cd player, with the gains on the amp set to 1 o'clock. I can crank the cd player all the way up. And keep it there.:eek:

I blank you not.

Amp is .005%THD@ rated power. The thing is just stunning, and it has opened my eyes to putting as much good clean power as your pocket-book can afford on your speakers.

That is why I researched my butt off, waited, watched, and grabbed this used piece at the right moment.

Believe me, you would never have in a million years convinced me what I am telling you now. I would argue you to the end of time that this amp would blow these little 4" cones flat-out of their baskets. Just stunned.

heiney9

THD is a meaningless spec. You don't need gobs of power for quality.

H9

heiney9

bikerboy wrote: »

I havent read all of this ongoing saga about low power amps but I did just close the deal on a Pass Aleph 30 just like Brocks amp. I have used a jolida sj-502 50 watt/ch tube amp and a 150 watt/ch B&K ST 202 ss amp for years. So I'm not "into" low power but I know 95% of my listening is at lower volumes and I should be very happy with the amp pushing my sda 2.3 speakers. Quality not quantity is good for me.

Have you received the amp yet, just wondering.

H9