Carver amps - can someone explain this?

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Sunfire is better sounding than the recent Carver amps I;ve heard, but certainly not the best SS I've ever heard, IMO of course.

    H9

    I appreciate that.
    Theyre just the best I'VE heard.
    I've never been to an audio show; I've never been to an ultra high end audio store; and, the two friends I have that have insanely expensive gear are pretty strictly into tubes.

    I do aspire to hearing better, I'm just creeping my way up there.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited December 2010
    yep It was the 2nd series 4b and actually sounded like the adcom 555 with a hair more bass to it so, i said no. From what I am told the newer 4b's ( also rated at 300 per instead of 250 per) are way better sounding so, I will wait till i find one in my price range. Now if they made it with big vu meeters like the McIntosh, or the Integra... Hummm. LOL I am a sucker for meeters. Thats one thing i wish the sunfire had, moving VU meeters!!
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited December 2010
    forgot 1 important thing the resale on that series doesnt seem to hold as good as the McIntosh. The resale is very important to me since I do change gear often.
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited December 2010
    Wire up some Emotiva & Bose with fine Monster products and you'll have arrived. (audio Nirvana):biggrin: Justin Bieber sounds sooooo good on this combination BTW !:wink:
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    Erik Tracy wrote: »
    I'm still convinced this was a baited thread with a sharp stick and an agenda and a preformed opinion to see who would bite.

    And for what...to brand bash?

    Must be a slow week...

    well, you're wrong. Baited? no. Loaded? sure. Was it provocative? of course. Was it meant to garner a response definitely. Was it maliscious? Absolutely not. Did I have some evil scheme to piss off Carver amp owners and then sit back and cackle? hardly. I posed a bold statement with an underlying question. I've kept an open mind this whole time, and you have not. I was willing to accept that I could be wrong on this issue. You felt you were right from the beginning and you're not going to let anyone tell you otherwise.

    If you have anything useful for the thread, please share.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited December 2010
    It is definately a slow day at work LOL.

    I will admit, I use a bose L1 system for when I dj weddings. Well Actually the sticks with a kv2 subwoofer.

    And because I dj weddings, yes Justin is requested...
    Dang it!! no bw tv though so close.. ...
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    erniejade wrote: »
    yep It was the 2nd series 4b and actually sounded like the adcom 555 with a hair more bass to it so, i said no. From what I am told the newer 4b's ( also rated at 300 per instead of 250 per) are way better sounding so, I will wait till i find one in my price range. Now if they made it with big vu meeters like the McIntosh, or the Integra... Hummm. LOL I am a sucker for meeters. Thats one thing i wish the sunfire had, moving VU meeters!!

    That symphonic had a nice meter on it, If I'm remembering correctly. Although I never saw it move more than a hair. hahaha
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    My Squeezebox Touch has some awesome VU meters.


    389514601.jpg

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    well, you're wrong. Baited? no. Loaded? sure. Was it provocative? of course. Was it meant to garner a response definitely. Was it maliscious? Absolutely not. Did I have some evil scheme to piss off Carver amp owners and then sit back and cackle? hardly. I posed a bold statement with an underlying question. I've kept an open mind this whole time, and you have not. I was willing to accept that I could be wrong on this issue. You felt you were right from the beginning and you're not going to let anyone tell you otherwise.

    If you have anything useful for the thread, please share.


    I think you said it all right here:
    As far as this being a fishing trip, in a way it is.

    You have amassed 25% of all posts in this thread with lots of mental energy and investment - with several posts that express a quite clear dislike for Carver amps.

    Ok - fine.

    I don't get what it is you are trying to ask (or rather, accomplish).

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    My Squeezebox Touch has some awesome VU meters.


    389514601.jpg

    H9



    agree!!!!!! I am a sucker for them!!! Ecpecially sweep meeters LOL.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    Erik Tracy wrote: »
    I think you said it all right here:


    You have amassed 25% of all posts in this thread with lots of mental energy and investment - with several posts that express a quite clear dislike for Carver amps.

    Ok - fine.

    I don't get what it is you are trying to ask (or rather, accomplish).

    lol. I think you you either greatly overestimate my mental energy input and investment, or underestimate my mental capacity and my stock held in the whole thing.

    I'm not hiding my initial response to Carver amps.

    *not specifically talking to you here, Erik* Good god! Why do people keep bringing this up??? I get it, I said that i had bad resuls, I said that I felt they were overpriced in the 2nd hand market. Yeah I get it. I said all of those things. And THEN I said show me why I am wrong!. I didn't say cry about it and call me names. *again, that paragraph was not directed to you*

    Erik, I appreciate you quoting me but read further. I said, "As far as this being a fishing trip, in a way it is. I just want responses. Good, bad, or indifferent. Thats why we're here. Some people may choose to take this personally because that's what they use or for some other reason, but that is unavoidable. I'm merely stating my opinion in a somewhat jovial fashion in hopes of starting conversation. Which it appears has happened."

    Now tell me what's wrong with that? Whats wrong with talking it out? I enjoy a good debate. His name escapes me at the moment, but a modern philosopher once said, "a discussion is two people standing in different positions. The goal should not be that one person is dragged to the others, but that, at a minimum, neither person is standing where they once were." Look at this thread and tell me I've been unreasonable. Sure my posts are long and numerous. But I feel they've addressed any and all issues. My words are are written as I think. My investment is appropriate, seeing as I started the thread.

    I'm not requiring people to comment in here. Threads go unanswered and die all the time. This one has gotten a lot of responses. My point was that I just wanted to talk about it. You want to know what I'm trying to accomplish? My grand scheme? A conversation.

    I see this forum like a room of friends at a party. I'm just throwing it out there and if no one had anything to say I would've turned around, pulled another cup full from the keg, and sat back down.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    My Squeezebox Touch has some awesome VU meters.


    389514601.jpg

    H9

    H9, have you heard of upgrading the power supply on these (eithr external, or battery)? have you done it?

    I was thinking about trying it out.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited December 2010
    Newrival, PM me your phone number if you don't mind. I have heard just about every Carver amp out there on many different rigs. Keep in mind, this will not be a 5 minute discussion when I call. I also have some advice on the Sunfire amp you have that is in need of service.

    Let me know when a good time to call is and please keep in mind that it's X-mas time, so time is valuable....at least to me.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    erniejade wrote: »
    yep It was the 2nd series 4b and actually sounded like the adcom 555 with a hair more bass to it so, i said no. From what I am told the newer 4b's ( also rated at 300 per instead of 250 per) are way better sounding so, I will wait till i find one in my price range. Now if they made it with big vu meeters like the McIntosh, or the Integra... Hummm. LOL I am a sucker for meeters. Thats one thing i wish the sunfire had, moving VU meeters!!

    I'm telling you, those original 555's are great. especially for ~300 bones. I know you feel the bass is lean. Maybe I'm just used to it, or prefer it, but they are clean.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Newrival, PM me your phone number if you don't mind. I have heard just about every Carver amp out there on many different rigs. Keep in mind, this will not be a 5 minute discussion when I call. I also have some advice on the Sunfire amp you have that is in need of service.

    Let me know when a good time to call is and please keep in mind that it's X-mas time, so time is valuable....at least to me.

    awesome. Sending a PM now. When you say not a 5 minute convo. do you mean you need more time or less?
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited December 2010
    You'll find out when I call. :wink:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    Brian, I need to hear those amazings soon, too! I passed on a set a few weeks back. I never went out to hear them because I was afraid wouldn't be able to say no!
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • snow
    snow Posts: 4,337
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    I get it, I said that i had bad resuls, I said that I felt they were overpriced in the 2nd hand market. Yeah I get it. I said all of those things. And THEN I said show me why I am wrong!.

    I just want responses. Good, bad, or indifferent.

    Why should anyone show you why your wrong?

    Even more importantly how can we?

    You have yet to list the components in a single setup that you tried with the various polks and Carver amp combos. If you heard weak flabby uncontrolled bass fine but to help you with that we need to know what the amp is, what the speakers are, where the speakers are in the room, what the source is, what the pre is what the IC's are, what type of speaker cables/wire you are using etc all of these things must be addressed before any help is possible.

    We cant come up with any viable reccomendations until you do this. You kep saying you want help, well help us help you.

    Even then it may be we cant, you may simply find once again that you dont like the sound of the newest Carver amp no matter what changes you make.

    You have told me that I have been unhelpful in this thread well I cant help you until you do the things above I can speculate on what the problems may be such as poor quality IC's or that since the amps mentioned are long in the tooth that perhaps they need a recap or that maybe the SRS's are too close to the wall or out too far or that there isnt enough room between side walls or any combo of things but its just that speculation.

    To start a thread asking for help and guidance without providing these key elements is a waste of time and thats why I said what I did about you being a troll looking for a fight not help.

    Prove me wrong let us help you.

    REGARDS SNOW
    Well, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    newrival wrote: »
    H9, have you heard of upgrading the power supply on these (eithr external, or battery)? have you done it?

    I was thinking about trying it out.

    Yep, an absolute must! I wouldn't run one without it. Here's the only thing going commercially for the Touch at the moment.

    http://www.welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

    I used a Bolder Modded ELPAC on my former Squeezebox II. The difference to my ears is not subtle.

    http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/-strse-381/power-supply-squeezebox-squeeze/Detail

    They don't sell the ELPAC but they modify them. ELPAC's have become a little pricey on Ebay lately. But you essentially buy the ELPAC (can't get them new anymore) and send it to Bolder for modification.

    Another popular PS is Channel Island Audio

    http://www.ciaudio.com/products/VDCSB

    The pic shows a Touch but I don't think CIA has one avail for the Touch yet.

    IMO, you can't do without it. Now if you handy w/electronics you could easily build one yourself.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited December 2010
    Y'all, newrival is as into gear as we are all. Those that think he's a troll, just chill a little bit please. I talked to him extensively tonight and he's about as enthusiastic as any of the rest of us in achieving his audio goal.

    He's just got a different way of finding out answers to his questions, is all. Hopefully I have steered him in the right way [as if his way was wrong] to achieve his goals along his own personal audio journey.

    I have no idea what he will do next but a new source, an upgraded crossover and upgraded tweeters is the end result of what I recommended after the long discussion. The crossover and source would be the utmost of importance with the tweeters coming next.

    Nice talking to you newrival and I hope to meet you one day along your audio journey...
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited December 2010
    Thanks for reaching out like that, Treitz3. Club Polk at its best!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Yep, an absolute must! I wouldn't run one without it. Here's the only thing going commercially for the Touch at the moment.

    http://www.welbornelabs.com/squeeze.htm

    I used a Bolder Modded ELPAC on my former Squeezebox II. The difference to my ears is not subtle.

    http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/-strse-381/power-supply-squeezebox-squeeze/Detail

    They don't sell the ELPAC but they modify them. ELPAC's have become a little pricey on Ebay lately. But you essentially buy the ELPAC (can't get them new anymore) and send it to Bolder for modification.

    Another popular PS is Channel Island Audio

    http://www.ciaudio.com/products/VDCSB

    The pic shows a Touch but I don't think CIA has one avail for the Touch yet.

    IMO, you can't do without it. Now if you handy w/electronics you could easily build one yourself.

    H9

    Thanks for that! Good to hear some confirmation. I have the squeezebox II as well. Is the squeezebox touch just a convenience upgrade or is there anything else of note?
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Nice talking to you newrival and I hope to meet you one day along your audio journey...
    Probably called collect...:wink:
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited December 2010
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    Probably called collect...:wink:
    Would you expect anything less? :biggrin:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    treitz

    thanks for the call. It's always nice to have a conversation with likeminded individuals. Especially ones I can learn a great deal from! Every person I've met or talked to from the forum has been great, and you are no different. You've got some great philosophy on audio gear. And thanks for the tips on my sunfire pre/pro. I'll be trying that as soon as I get some free time.

    The xover then tweeters are definitely happening this winter, barring any unforeseen setback.

    I'll get to that CDP as soon as I can fit it into the budget :)
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited December 2010
    Who here is near Chicago that can hook a brother up? I told him point blank that "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****". He needs a better source to move on in his audio journey.

    While he may have agreed, I feel that [collectively] we need to show him the way. Or, at least let him listen to it......
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,416
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Who here is near Chicago that can hook a brother up? I told him point blank that "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****". He needs a better source to move on in his audio journey.

    While he may have agreed, I feel that [collectively] we need to show him the way. Or, at least let him listen to it......

    Already on it. Sent him a pm.:smile::cool:


    He, or anyone else for that matter can drop by my place anytime for anything audio.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    I am near Chicago but our RAS won't be having a meet for a few months. But Newrival is welcome to one of our gatherings. We have a plethora of rigs and dac's to sample.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    Snow,

    I wasn't concerned at all that you haven't help me. I just said you hadn't adding anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.

    Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

    current equipment as It is/will be set up.

    Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
    DIY tube phono stage
    Denon 2910 SACD
    HTPC custom built
    Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
    KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
    Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

    carvers available to me:
    tfm-55
    2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited December 2010
    h9, what is RAS?
    design is where science and art break even.
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