Carver amps - can someone explain this?

Fongolio

I use a Carver C-1 in my system. It sounded fantastic until I swapped it out with an updated Apt-Holman (new caps and op amps). The Apt was more detailed, bigger bass extension and more refined sounding. Then, while using the Apt I re-capped and upgraded op-amps on the Carver C-1. When that went back in to the system I was floored. Even more detail and refinement then the Apt-Holman. All this on Ben's silver cables. It took several months before the cables lost their initial brightness (either that or my ears got used to the sound) but I quite like them with my set up. I'm only using Ben's interconnects and not the silver speaker wires. My speaker wires are some kind of oxygen free copper wires I bought many years ago. Don't remeber the brand. Anyway even changes within a piece can result in a huge change in sound. Right now I'm very much enjoying my system with the Carver pre and amp with SDA 1C's combination.

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

As a counterpoint. I had Ben's IC's and speaker cables and was disappointed in them for my rig. And my rig is very warm sounding. Even tried using them separately. They were no match for my MIT's.

H9

Another ditto for you. Nothing against the cable itself or the build quality, they were put together very well, just didn't work in my setup, and like Heiney, my rig goes very far into the "warm" side as quite a few people will attest to.

snow

newrival wrote: »

Can you list a few that have worked for you?

Sure. Carver Research Lightstar Direct, Lexicon MC-1 both are older products but very well made with quality parts.

REGARDS SNOW

inspiredsports

heiney9 wrote: »

As a counterpoint. I had Ben's IC's and speaker cables and was disappointed in them for my rig. And my rig is very warm sounding. Even tried using them separately. They were no match for my MIT's.

H9

That's where I'm at now too. I only have one cable in the loop (including AC power cables) that's not an MIT.

newrival

Fongolio wrote: »

I use a Carver C-1 in my system. It sounded fantastic until I swapped it out with an updated Apt-Holman (new caps and op amps). The Apt was more detailed, bigger bass extension and more refined sounding. Then, while using the Apt I re-capped and upgraded op-amps on the Carver C-1. When that went back in to the system I was floored. Even more detail and refinement then the Apt-Holman. All this on Ben's silver cables. It took several months before the cables lost their initial brightness (either that or my ears got used to the sound) but I quite like them with my set up. I'm only using Ben's interconnects and not the silver speaker wires. My speaker wires are some kind of oxygen free copper wires I bought many years ago. Don't remeber the brand. Anyway even changes within a piece can result in a huge change in sound. Right now I'm very much enjoying my system with the Carver pre and amp with SDA 1C's combination.

INteresting about the C-1 upgrade. I am quite certain that my trials could have been with amps that needed a bit of work themselve. And I guarantee they hadn't had any since new. I almost wish I would have held on to them just for this thread, but hard to do through apartments and condos.townhomes with little to no storage

newrival

I see a lot of people with MIT cables. And many mention the Shotguns. How would these cables rank against others in their price range

inspiredsports

newrival wrote: »

I see a lot of people with MIT cables. And many mention the Shotguns. How would these cables rank against others in their price range

You need to spend a lot of time listening to your system to get a baseline feel for what your system sounds like before you start putting new cables in place.

Imagine several bedsheets draped over the fronts of your your speaker cabinets, each slightly veiling the sound quality. For me, Shotgun S2's seemed to lift several of the layers of those sheets off of the speakers. As I accumulate more funds, I will move even higher up the ladder of MIT products.

Many other brands may do the same, but Joe Abrams is a friend of the group who can help take the financial risk out of buying relatively expensive cables and interconnects. There is also an MIT sponsored test program where you can get some of their cables in your home to listen for yourself for only the cost of shipping the cables to the next guy on the list.

amulford

Man, I'll tell you what. When we were up to Lou's and hooked his Amazings up to my Silver 9t's with all Shotgun S3's... Dayum, Well let's just say it was rockin. That is until Sal shredded those two woofers with some Bjork...

F1nut

There is also an MIT sponsored test program where you can get some of their cables in your home to listen for yourself for only the cost of shipping the cables to the next guy on the list.

That has ended, but may start up again next year.

newrival

inspiredsports wrote: »

Many other brands may do the same, but Joe Abrams is a friend of the group who can help take the financial risk out of buying relatively expensive cables and interconnects. There is also an MIT sponsored test program where you can get some of their cables in your home to listen for yourself for only the cost of shipping the cables to the next guy on the list.

Oh, I see. Well that is helpful. I was looking at shotgun IC's on some sites and are just a bit out of my price range for a while...

inspiredsports

newrival wrote: »

Oh, I see. Well that is helpful. I was looking at shotgun IC's on some sites and are just a bit out of my price range for a while...

They are not cheap, and are sometimes criticized for it, but a lot of R&D is involved to get everything just right. You will find some great deals in the Classifieds section from time to time.

I've personally come to grips with the realization that I have to treat cables as components in my quest for better sound. My rig is in my home office so I listen for about 8 hours a day and that's how I justify the big numbers you can spend on power, interconnect and speaker cables.

I just found the thread about the loaner set MIT was allowing CP members to audition and we sure dropped the ball!

snow

inspiredsports wrote: »

You need to spend a lot of time listening to your system to get a baseline feel for what your system sounds like before you start putting new cables in place.

Agreed I think once you get your main system components in place then worry about nicer IC'c and speaker cables, the better cables will just make a nice system even better with more clarity detail etc.



Regards Snow

newrival

Hope everyone had a very merry Christmas!

I spent some time (actually, a LOT of time) this weekend swapping and listening. more swapping, more listening. Let me say first that this amp sounds different than I remember. I actually took notes on some of my listening and am assembling it all now so I can give a coherent review of my experience. Unfortunately I don't have time to do that tonight so it will likely be tomorrow.

snow

newrival wrote: »

Hope everyone had a very merry Christmas!

I spent some time (actually, a LOT of time) this weekend swapping and listening. more swapping, more listening. Let me say first that this amp sounds different than I remember. I actually took notes on some of my listening and am assembling it all now so I can give a coherent review of my experience. Unfortunately I don't have time to do that tonight so it will likely be tomorrow.

Great looking forward to your review good or bad

REGARDS SNOW

erniejade

Just get an emerson or Yorx or even better yet, since we all like to relax listening to our audio, you could pick this up. It is a 8-track bed. It is also available in IL. http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-RETRO-TWIN-BEDS-8-TRACK-TAPE-PLAYER-BLT-N-/270684883360?pt=Antiques_Furniture&hash=item3f061389a0

gdb

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=carver+stereophile+challenge&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

You might read up on how Bob made his amp indistinguishable from two high- buck amps in a Stereophile magazine hosted challenge. (if you haven't already done so ) A LOT of people are in serious denial about the outcome, please,please, be gentle with them and their fragile psyche if you become a Carver ________ ! :biggrin:

heiney9

Here's another take on it to be fair.

Back in the 80s, Bob Carver issued an amplifier challenge to Stereophile Magazine. The gist of it was that Bob claimed that he could transform the sound of one his solid-state amps (I can't recall the exact model) to mimic that of an expensive tube amp of the Magazine's own choosing. So here we were huddled in JGH's listening room in Santa Fe, with Bob on his hands and knees tinkering with his circuitry so as to match the sonics of a very expensive Conrad-Johnson power amp. I've got to hand it to Carver - that's some bravado and one hell of a publicity stunt. Nice try, Bob, but no cigar. At the time, Larry Archibald and JGH seemed to think that Carver had in fact succeeded. But to my ears, Carver had merely managed to reduce the damping factor of his amp; in essence making it sound as loose and uncontrolled in the bass range as the Conrad-Johnson. There was still a large residual difference in the midrange. - Dick Ohlsher

gdb

Little surprise there, from what I gather, Dickey only respects tubes.

heiney9

gdb wrote: »

Little surprise there, from what I gather, Dickey only respects tubes.

Except he has great praise for a certain SS designer's amplifiers. So that doesn't really hold water does it?

Some 20 years later, I can report that Nelson Pass has succeeded where Bob Carver has failed: the Aleph 30 enjoys a healthy dose of tube magic in the midrange. - Dick Olsher

It's just one person's POV, no one is really right or wrong.

H9

heiney9

Bob definitely had some great designs and I respect him as an audio guru, always have. But the whole Stereophile thing was just about dick measuring and publicity, IMO.

H9

gdb

It seems to me that the scientific "community" has always needed/had a whipping boy through the ages. I guess Bob was/is one of em. Tesla is probably having a good laugh right about now!:biggrin:

heiney9

Is Bob related to you? You sure seem to have an agenda. Some of his "whipping boy" status you proclaim was bought on himself. His tireless self-promotion certainly could have rubbed people the wrong way. Not everyone can be modest and just persue the hobby and let the gear speak for itself, some have to be like Bob and add a "circus" effect (for lack of a better term). Sometimes this worked well, but sometimes it back-fired too.

Certainly one of the top 10 audio guru's of all time and he added a lot to the hobby, etc. No shame in that.

H9

gdb

Nah, I wish. I just like his moxey and gear and don't enjoy seeing him given the good old Bose/Monster treatment. Not saying that you've done that but there's some that do.

heiney9

He certainly doesn't deserve the Bose/Monster treatment, that I'll agree with 100%. He had/has far too many important and real contributions to audio for that kind of treatment. I still have enormous respect for him, just question some of his motives and antics early on. Wish him no ill will or disrespect, just was showing both sides of the "challenge" outcome.

H9

gdb

That's cool.

treitz3

heiney9 wrote: »

I still have enormous respect for him, just question some of his motives and antics early on.

If you were still in college and/or just graduated and had no money to speak of, wouldn't you pull a gimmick or two to get dough to start your dream? He did and the multiple millions he has now was a result of what he did. Along the way, he pleased a consumer or two...

F1nut

heiney9 wrote: »

Here's another take on it to be fair.

Back in the 80s, Bob Carver issued an amplifier challenge to Stereophile Magazine. The gist of it was that Bob claimed that he could transform the sound of one his solid-state amps (I can't recall the exact model) to mimic that of an expensive tube amp of the Magazine's own choosing. So here we were huddled in JGH's listening room in Santa Fe, with Bob on his hands and knees tinkering with his circuitry so as to match the sonics of a very expensive Conrad-Johnson power amp. I've got to hand it to Carver - that's some bravado and one hell of a publicity stunt. Nice try, Bob, but no cigar. At the time, Larry Archibald and JGH seemed to think that Carver had in fact succeeded. But to my ears, Carver had merely managed to reduce the damping factor of his amp; in essence making it sound as loose and uncontrolled in the bass range as the Conrad-Johnson. There was still a large residual difference in the midrange. - Dick Ohlsher

Adding to the above....

He achieved a successful result by live tweaking a prototype, a process that proved unstable and unsuitable for series production. Later Carver himself, said that it was impossible to duplicate his results in production amplifiers.

...and....

Carver was able to duplicate the sound of the selected C-J amp. However, the results were unstable and the similarity faded over time. Carver had to continually tweak the amps during the challenge and was never able to duplicate the sound over the long term, which is why the production models sounded nothing like the C-J.

treitz3

I wondered why some folks say that when they tried the production Carver model and the CJ head to head, they could hear the difference. Yet the "golden ears" at Stereophile could not. Personally, I never thought that the golden ears heard that well due to this, but this sheds some light on it. Thanks Jesse.

Tour2ma

What's weird about the above is the original challenge was:

• - Bob in a hotel room;
• - a Mark Levinson amp (rumored as the name was withheld); and
• - the proof of his success or failure was a null test, not a listening test.

I guess history is fluid...

EDIT: and I think the Carver was the M-1.0t.

FTGV

Tour2ma wrote: »

What's weird about the above is the original challenge was:

• - Bob in a hotel room;
• - a Mark Levinson amp (rumored as the name was withheld); and
• - the proof of his success or failure was a null test, not a listening test.

I guess history is fluid...

EDIT: and I think the Carver was the M-1.0t.

Apparently the same challenge was taken up by The Audio Critic with an ML as the reference.