Carver amps - can someone explain this?

newrival

nooshinjohn wrote: »

you must also remember that they are now 20+ years old and in need of being completely gone through so that they perform as they were intended.

This was also my suspicion with these amps. They were unused and sitting in boxes for probably a decade. I don't doubt that there were issues that need to be addressed on the amps I tried. They were likely not in optimal electronic condition.

I fully agree with you in the Bob Carver's role in audio history. His story is an amazing one, and his Stereophile showdown is the stuff of legend. He has a legacy no one can deny and we all benefit from that.

And just to reiterate on the Carver tubes, they are truly a beautiful thing. I've only heard them the once, so I had no reference, but the rig utilizing those amps sounded beautiful.

snow

newrival wrote: »

yep the cube. It's pretty amazing that thing is so small though, and never got hot. But as I said, I just didn't like the sound with My DCM's. Since those were my main speakers at the time, I looked elsewhere

What the cube sounds like on your DCM's has nothing whatsoever to do with SDA's or for that matter what amps you feel are superior to the Carvers in the same price range, I still want to know whether you own any SDA's and if so what Carver amps have you tried with them since you so eloquently stated that.......

(I know Polk SDA's and SRS's arent the definition of transparent speakers, but still, they're transparent enough to let me know these are amps meant for lesser speakers)

And what amps do you recomend that are a better value for the money?


REGARDS SNOW

newrival

Fongolio wrote: »

My system with a Carver TFM-45 sounds better than many mega-buck rigs I've heard in some very expensive show rooms.

I believe that it does sound to you the way you describe it. I've heard this said about everything from SDA's to Technics sb7070's running on a Technics sx500 receiver. (and it actually sounded pretty decent.) Does it bother me that people say that? of course not. Hell, I don't even think that you're wrong. If you think it's better, then it is.

Face

Not the last word in resolution, but they are cheap and were popular at the same time SDA's were available new.

newrival

snow wrote: »

What the cube sounds like on your DCM's has nothing whatsoever to do with SDA's or for that matter what amps you feel are superior to the Carvers in the same price range, I still want to know whether you own any SDA's and if so what Carver amps have you tried with them since you so eloquently stated that.......

(I know Polk SDA's and SRS's arent the definition of transparent speakers, but still, they're transparent enough to let me know these are amps meant for lesser speakers)

And what amps do you recomend that are a better value for the money?


REGARDS SNOW

Good lord, I'm getting to it.

The cube comment was replying to Jinjuku's post. I will address yours in due time, as well. There are a lot of other posts I wanted to get to first. I'm not the fastest typer in the world, and I've got other things going on simultaneously.

Personally, I almost feel I should keep you waiting, since you're very nearly demanding I pay attention to you. And as far as my eloquence, I was unaware that I was addressing the royal court. I humbly beg your forgiveness, sire.

newrival

skipf wrote: »

Well F1, do you think the reason your system sounded better is that your cables cost more than most of the amps or speakers you're compairing them to?

Further insight to my experience: I was using VERY cheap cables at the time. oh and the source was at most hi-fi to be certain.

gdb

Why does anyone prefer raisin bran over cornflakes, rap over real music,paper over plastic ?? Personal preference mainly,that would be my guess.:biggrin:

tonyb

newrival wrote: »

Further insight to my experience: I was using VERY cheap cables at the time. oh and the source was at most hi-fi to be certain.

That could be why you got the results you did. People don't put as much weight into cable choices as they should.

I posted a thread about a Pioneer elite receiver that replaced a B&K 307, and wasn't happy with the SQ. That is until I realized I had different IC's going to the amp, popped the old ones back in and bang,synergy was back. Experimenting with cables should be on your list before kicking a piece of gear down the road.

snow

newrival wrote: »

I humbly beg your forgiveness, sire.

As you should :biggrin:



REGARDS SNOW

newrival

snow wrote: »

Obviously many SDA owners own Carver gear because to their ears it sounds better than anything else in the same price range.
REGARDS SNOW

I'm sure you're correct. This is kind of my point. I want people with Carver amps to tell me what I'm doing wrong. Perhaps my original post was not sensitive enough to those who love Carver gear, but I was attempting to be careful enough. It seems that you may have been one of the people offended. and I apologize for any perceived attack on you, but you have to realize this post was in fun and is now way any reflection of you, or other carver amp owners.

My post was directed at Carver owners to help me understand this whole thing. When I said I wanted someone to explain it to me, I was being serious. I really want someone to show me what these amps can do! I just need help. If I rattled the cage a little in doing so, well it seems that that happens around here. And I've gotten a lot of great responses. I'd like to keep the dialog positive.

tonyb

We have a saying around here, "Everything Matters". Your source,cables,amps speakers, the room. Some gear just works better for some than others. It becomes too easy to say a certain speaker sounds like crap,or this or that amp,blah blah, when really it's more so a synergy thing. As posted before, most carvers out there are in need of some updating due to age. Yeah, even the best have some lemons and Carver is no different. Lots of people use Carvers/Sunfire with SDA's because they like the sound in their environment, no need to read any further into it. You had a bad experience with them,thats cool, you should be able to move on and try something different. Thats what this hobby is all about.

heiney9

You're not doing anything wrong, if your ears, gear and synergy don't work with Carver......they don't work. I've heard quite a few pieces of Carver in the heydey and I never cared for it as in it was never anything that blew my skirt up. Yamaha, Onkyo, Carver all sound the same to me, bland and boring. Doesn't mean it's necessarily poor gear, just not what I would consider great.

At Lou's at Polkfest the Carver amp sounded a whole lot better than the Emotiva, a whole lot better on the Amazings and Phil's AAD's.

Just my .02c

H9

newrival

snow wrote: »

You speak of many other amps that sound great within this price range, please name a handfull I want to try them.
REGARDS SNOW

Ok so here's my shortlist of amps that I have heard that can be gotten in the $500-$1k range:

Parasound Halo A23
Parasound HCA-2200 mkII
Bel Canto (Don't recall the model, but was <$500 used)
Stax (can't remember model, but it was class a and somewhere around 50W)
Sunfire Symphonic reference

this is off the top of my head. Some other models I've not had much experience with but personally know others have preferred:

Odyssey Stratos
Classe CA-150

erniejade

Classe CA-150 great amp for the $.

nooshinjohn

jinjuku wrote: »

I don't want a cube. I want one of his original Amps in a Can... that would be cool just for a conversation piece.

That is what I am trying to tell you... Get a cube and an old Folger's can. Take the parts from the cube and transfer them to the coffee can. The cube is almost the same amp, but in a different package.

Timothy Smith

I keep trying Carver amps but they never float my boat.

I recently bought a TFM-35, had high hopes, brought it home, hooked it up, and in a very few minutes (maybe moments) knew I didn't like the sound.

Sounded thin and somehow "electronic", but it would play "loud".

Tried it on SDA's, RTA12's, Magneplanar MMG's, Dahlquist DQ-10's, ADS-810's, and some others, so I think I gave it fair shake.

On the other hand, I have (and instantly liked) amps like Adcom GFA-1, 454, 555, Citation 16's, Dynacos, Luxman, Quad, Rotel, and others.

I can't figure it out. Maybe someone who has a system that sounds fantastic with a Carver amp, but they should try swapping in an Adcom, Rotel, or similiar "value" amp of similar power rating and see if it doesn't sound even "better".

Fongolio

newrival wrote: »

I am remiss to mention that I love Carver preamps. I've only had one that worked, but my friend has one as well as a 2ch receiver which I find sounds pretty nice.

the reason I owned so many was because they, all but the tfm-35 and m-400t, were my great uncle's. When he passed I was to test them, clean them up, and sell the ones I didn't want. As I originally stated, I really liked them at first. That was until I hooked them up to less forgiving speakers. As far as this being a fishing trip, in a way it is. I just want responses. Good, bad, or indifferent. Thats why we're here. Some people may choose to take this personally because that's what they use or for some other reason, but that is unavoidable. I'm merely stating my opinion in a somewhat jovial fashion in hopes of starting conversation. Which it appears has happened.

As all can see, I have stated that many people like Carver amps. I concede that point. So there must be reasoning to it. And that is what I am after. I just want people to let me know what I'm missing. I feel this is a much better approach than just posting on peoples threads and saying "Carver blows, get a REAL amp!" Because I don't feel that way. To each their own, and to their own, good music. That's what it's all about, right?

Very reasonable answer. I don't for a second think that Carver amps are the end all be all of audio amplification, but for the $550 I paid for a recently serviced TFM-45 I certainly can't find anything local that even comes close to this sound quality dollar for dollar. By the way, I've never heard the TFM-35 but still own a TFM-25 and when I went from the 25 to the 45 I found it was not just a step up in wattage but also in refinement. The 45 has much more control in the bottom end and detail in the top. No flabby bass in my system with the C-1 controlling.

I'm actually glad you started this conversation as it's something I noticed as well when I was new here. I think it really boils down to synergy though. A Carver may sound like a$$ with brand X speakers, pre, and source. Change the pre and it may sound golden. Use a high end TT or CDP and it may change for the good. Use brand X cables and you may get something different altogether. Like you said to each his own and in the end it's about what your ears find pleasing. Have a great Christmas newrival!!!

PS.. I still haven't tried tubes with SDA's but everyone who has raves about them. I'm working on a deal at a local pawn shop for an old Eico ST-70 integrated that I'd love to try with the 1C's

skipf

Since I have Carver ALS Platinum speakers, I haven't found an amp that has the power to drive them anywhere close to the price of my Carver Silver 9t's. The Carver 180W tube amps did sound better than the 575W 9t's, but they cost three times as much. Trying to compair SS to tubes is an apples and oranges thing though. Not counting tube amps, I'm very satisfied with my 9t's. Crystal clear mids and highs, and the bass will bulge the window glass with no distortion. The best bass reproduction I've heard from an amp/speaker combo.

snow

newrival wrote: »

Ok so here's my shortlist of amps that I have heard that can be gotten in the $500-$1k range:

Parasound Halo A23
Parasound HCA-2200 mkII
Bel Canto (Don't recall the model, but was <$500 used)
Stax (can't remember model, but it was class a and somewhere around 50W)
Sunfire Symphonic reference

this is off the top of my head. Some other models I've not had much experience with but personally know others have preferred:

Odyssey Stratos
Classe CA-150

Thanks for the reply. Still curious though as to whether you have heard any of the Carver amps you mentioned with SDA's though since that seems to be your main focus.

REGARDS SNOW

punk-roc

I really like my Carver TFM-42 with my Amazing Platinums.. I've been changing things around recently since I think my front room is just too small for the Amazings..

When I paired the TMF-42 with my SDA-II's i didn't like it as much.. currently have the SDA-II's powered with a Parasound HCA-1200mkII and I like that better than the SDA/TFM-42 pairing.. but I think I liked the Amazing/TFM-42 combo in the room better than what I've accomplished with the SDA-II's (although I'm going to try to upgrade teh xovers, etc to make my final determination)..

Just trying to re-iterate the point most are making, that synergy is the key..

Jason

snow

Fongolio wrote: »

I'm actually glad you started this conversation as it's something I noticed as well when I was new here. I think it really boils down to synergy though. A Carver may sound like a$$ with brand X speakers, pre, and source. Change the pre and it may sound golden. Use a high end TT or CDP and it may change for the good. Use brand X cables and you may get something different altogether. Like you said to each his own and in the end it's about what your ears find pleasing.

Great point, synergy is the key as you said. Carver amps as a rule may suck with DCM products I dont know but to my ears with SDA's they sound very good. I currently have a very old very cheap very low wattage Kenwood Int amp running a pair of SDA SRS's in the garage and the sound is phenominal. It really shouldnt sound as good as it does but it does so it stays there, I have tried other amps receivers etc with these speakers and the little Kenwood just kills em even it's bigger brothers made the same year, Why? I dont know but it does.

REGARDS SNOW

nooshinjohn

SRS's as a garage rig??? Somehow that just sounds wrong to me.

punk-roc

nooshinjohn wrote: »

SRS's as a garage rig??? Somehow that just sounds wrong to me.

or, very, very right

Fongolio

I had a Kenwood KA-9100 integrated that made my RTiA7's totally sing. Kenwood made some great stuff back in the 70's. Interesting though snow that your little Kenwood sounded better than it's bigger bro's. It truly is about synergy. In my main system I have two turntables, one a medium priced Pro-ject 6.9, the other an old Technics SL-1700 on which I'm using an Audio Technica AT20SLa cart. It sounded totally awesome with a Marantz headshell I borrowed off another table. I'm selling the Marantz table and needed the headshell back so I switched it to a generic I had lying around. Totally changed the sound!! The new one is a little lighter so I had to reset the counter weight for tracking force. I know I have the alignment right but it just doesn't have the same punch or super wide soundstage it did while using the Marantz headshell. The point is that it's all about synergy. Change anything and the synergy changes. I guess a lot of SDA owners simply enjoy the sound of Carver with SDA. That said, as stated on this thread and in others there are many who have found audio nirvana with SDA's and other amps.

newrival

just a quick clarification:

snow wrote: »

I also noticed that you mentioned in your opening statement that it wasnt meant as an attack on Carver amps but yet again you say that every Carver amp you have owned or listened to has lean uncontrolled even flabby bass, not sure how that can be construed as anything other than a blatant attack.

I'm not quite sure I would consider an observation an attack of any kind, let alone a blatant one. But for the sake of argument, I will concede that it was a stern observation.

snow wrote: »

I have owned several Carver amps and Sunfire gear as well and have never encountered what you mention, perhaps the gear that you had needed new caps virtually all of the gear mentioned is due for a refurb if it hasnt been done yet. Do you even own any SDA's to try carver gear on? or is what you said just an assumption based on your experience with your time windows?

I've owned several SDA's. SDA1, CRS+, SDA2b, and SRS's. For several years, and listened to almost all combinations of amps and speakers.

snow wrote: »

Carver gear is known to have both high current and high voltage so it is interesting to read your denial of this.

Can you please point to where I ever denied that point? I have no problem debating any and all points of my assertions, but please stick to the facts.

snow wrote: »

I suggest you see how poorly a pair of TFM-35's perform in Sal's/Laserath's video with his SDA's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHLKERU0wo&feature=player_profilepage [/QUOTE]

I'm fully aware of that video, and have been vocal on how big of a fan I am of Sal's work on his speakers. I had forgotten he uses Carver gear, so that probably means his comment earlier in the thread was one of passive condescension rather than a joke, which is why I originally returned in favor (or so I thought). *sorry for he mix-up there*

Back to the point: The fact that you are offering up a youtube video as evidence of how well a piece of audio equipment reproduces music is absolutely comical. I hope I don't have to explain why.

gdb

A TFM-35 amp + C-11 pre + SD/A-450 cdp + pin/blade SRS2s sound better to me than half the mega-dollar rigs I've seen at audio parlors/shows ! (brand X speaker cables & low-end Audioquest ICs) An Adcom 555 sounds like a dentist's drill to me compared to my Carver ! But, then again, my mileage always varies !:cool:

vc69

gdb wrote: »

An Adcom 555 sounds like a dentist's drill to me compared to my Carver !

LoL...I can agree with that!

gdb

my apologies to the Adcom fans ! I didn't mean to bash or flame!:redface:

vc69

newrival wrote: »

Back to the point: The fact that you are offering up a youtube video as evidence of how well a piece of audio equipment reproduces music is absolutely comical. I hope I don't have to explain why.

Gotta say that he has a very good point Snow. That video proves only one thing. That is: there is no accounting for taste.

snow

newrival wrote: »

just a quick clarification:



I'm not quite sure I would consider an observation an attack of any kind, let alone a blatant one. But for the sake of argument, I will concede that it was a stern observation.



I've owned several SDA's. SDA1, CRS+, SDA2b, and SRS's. For several years, and listened to almost all combinations of amps and speakers.



Can you please point to where I ever denied that point? I have no problem debating any and all points of my assertions, but please stick to the facts.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHLKERU0wo&feature=player_profilepage

I'm fully aware of that video, and have been vocal on how big of a fan I am of Sal's work on his speakers. I had forgotten he uses Carver gear, so that probably means his comment earlier in the thread was one of passive condescension rather than a joke, which is why I originally returned in favor (or so I thought). *sorry for he mix-up there*

Back to the point: The fact that you are offering up a youtube video as evidence of how well a piece of audio equipment reproduces music is absolutely comical. I hope I don't have to explain why.[/QUOTE]