Carver amps - can someone explain this?

erniejade

I will admit the 555 is clean that is for sure!! Again as soon as my arm is out of a sling I also can bring the jolida cd100 with ei tubes. For a source as wellI

Anytime on the carver amazing. They are not in the most optimal room but they do sound good!! If we figure out an easy way to pull them from the basement we could bring them to your rig also. Again rotator cuf surgery limits me a bit on what I can pick up. Hopefully one more week in the sling then they should start working on stregnth.

inspiredsports

newrival wrote: »

. . . Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

current equipment as It is/will be set up.

Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
DIY tube phono stage
Denon 2910 SACD
HTPC custom built
Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

carvers available to me:
tfm-55
2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)

Someone's signature (I can remember who at this late hour) states, "Everything Matters"

Clean Power, Power Cables, IC's and Speaker Cables, Fresh Caps, etc. in components, knowledge of Output Impedance of components, Current Capacity of amp, Speaker Impedance, on and on.

You can get good results from an ecclectic collection of most components when you are hitting on all of the above, and stellar results with the right selection of components.

I'm guessing due to the age of the Carver amps (and with everything else in good shape), you have only a 50/50 chance of the amps sounding great if you don't send them out for caps and power supply upgrades. You can't expect 20+ year old gear to sound great if it's not up to spec.

snow

newrival wrote: »

Snow,

I wasn't concerned at all that you haven't help me. I just said you hadn't adding anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.

Simply not true.

REGARDS SNOW

snow

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm guessing due to the age of the Carver amps (and with everything else in good shape), you have only a 50/50 chance of the amps sounding great if you don't send them out for caps and power supply upgrades. You can't expect 20+ year old gear to sound great if it's not up to spec.

Agreed 100% Actually I mentioned this to him as a possible reason why he was having the problems he was in post #17 but he said this.

I just said you hadn't added anything beneficial. You only came and crashed my thread. Which is fine, it led to some lively debate, which I always enjoy. You just challenged me from the start regardless of my meeting nearly all of your incessant demands.

Yes I know my incessant demands of wanting to know what your gear that you were using so I could help was too much :rolleyes:


REGARDS SNOW

RuSsMaN

I think it's 'a silk purse out of a sows ear' Tom, but I'll roll with it.

Are we done here yet?

Cheers,
Russ

P.S. My dad can beat up YOUR dad.

snow

newrival wrote: »

Moving forward, I feel at this point, listing all the combinations of amps and components isn't going to help too much. So I'm going to list what I've got, and the Carvers I have access to and you can tell me what to try. That is, as long as you can take my opinions as opinions and try to keep as open a mind as I am. Fair enough?

current equipment as It is/will be set up.

Empire 598 mkIII Troubadour TT w/ Denon dl-160 or Ortofone Blue (havent tried this one yet)
DIY tube phono stage
Denon 2910 SACD
HTPC custom built
Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre)
KnuKonceptz eKs IC's (I have others too)
Peachtree DAC (borrowing), some tube DAC available too

carvers available to me:
tfm-55
2.0t (i think, maybe it's a 2.5t?)

Well I dont know jack about TT'S so I cant help you there, what I would reccomend is try to keep it as simple as possible at least at the beginning, easier to pick out an offender this way.

Maybe try the TFM-55 with the Denon 2910 SACD and the Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre) and then switch out IC's to see if one mates better than another, if that doesnt work then I would sell something extra I had and buy a Carver C-1 pre to go with the TFM-55 and your Denon-2910 if it still sounds bad try another source. If you still cant get any joy then it may be that the Carver sound simply isnt pleasing to your ears and thats ok also we dont all like the same sound.

REGARDS SNOW

SCompRacer

newrival wrote: »

h9, what is RAS?

RAS = Rockford Audio Society.

concealer404

The Denon has to go.

What other interconnects do you have?

newrival

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I think it's 'a silk purse out of a sows ear' Tom, but I'll roll with it.

Are we done here yet?

Cheers,
Russ

P.S. My dad can beat up YOUR dad.

Is there a time limit? If this thread isn't inconveniencing you, I say let it ride until it dies. If you're done with it, that's fine. I'm still going to try the amps and post on my findings. Additionally, I'm going to continue to reply to anything I find interesting.

newrival

That was going to be my next question: "Do I need to have a Carver pre to really get the best out of them?" It would stand to reason, seeing as how they could have been developed in tandom or at least used during testing. I'll see if I can find someone thats got one.

heiney9

newrival wrote: »

That was going to be my next question: "Do I need to have a Carver pre to really get the best out of them?" It would stand to reason, seeing as how they could have been developed in tandom or at least used during testing. I'll see if I can find someone thats got one.

No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

H9

newrival

concealer404 wrote: »

The Denon has to go.

What other interconnects do you have?

Don't like my IC's?? :biggrin:

I thought they were pretty decent. Theyre perhaps not some esoteric brand but they are silver.

The other options are kind of endless, and I won't know what are available until I go digging through his racks of cables. Sorry

heiney9

newrival wrote: »

they are silver.

Silver sounds different that Copper.

H9

newrival

heiney9 wrote: »

No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

H9

I agree. And thats really how I've approached it for a while. I experiment a lot. Switching this for that, etc. The problem was that when I had the Carvers, I didn't keep anything. If after I tried it in all conceivable combinations with the gear I had and didn't like it, I'd sell it. I know there a re a few guys around here that have shelves fll of pres and amos and cables and sources, I just was never the person, and I think that makes my process a difficult one. FOrums like this are beneficial because there are people that have tried several different combinations and have found ones that work. Many of those times it was using gear that is somewhat common, and easily attainable, in the used market. If people throw some well matching associated gear out there, I'm willing to try it. Like the suggestion of the C-1 with the tfm-55. That's a good lead. I've got have the equation already and finding the c-1 may not pose too much of a problem.

I care enough about this topic that I'm willing to try suggestions that I can manage with little monetary investment. The good thing is that Carver prices are somewhat reliable, it seems, and so resale should be easy if I need to pick up a C-1.

newrival

heiney9 wrote: »

Silver sounds different that Copper.

H9

Oh, I forgot, I do have some AudioQuest copper IC's. I know those arent the greatest thing on Earth but I see that there are people here that use and like them.

Tour2ma

Ditto on the pre-...

newrival,
As has been stated the life a given Carver amp has lived and luck of the draw will go far in deteriming your listening experience, but also know that there were more than one version within many Carver lines.

From an old thread...

Tour2ma wrote: »

I spent many happy years with my M-1.5t/ SDA-SRS combo. Then my 1.5 had to go in for repair (Carver Corp was still in the repair biz back then). The repair price included updating my original series 1.5 to the third and final series version. The improvement was startling.... smoother... more open... more detailed.... The experience opened my ears to other possibilities. Then this place blew the lid off...

Bottom line.... The Carver - SDA combo is good, no doubt about it, and ranks well on any value scale, but there is better. So when you can, as you can afford to, look for better.

vc69

heiney9 wrote: »

Silver sounds different that Copper.

H9

Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

Cables matter. Everything matters

heiney9

Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

H9

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

Silver sounds different that Copper.

H9

That's what i was going for. Again, as i said earlier in this thread, all ears are different, but i haven't found a silver cable in my setup that i liked. (No offense meant to Ben.)

I like a warm, lush, full sound, even if it possibly means it comes at the expense of the best sparkling highs ever. Copper is what calls to me.

Try the Audioquest cables you have, and see what you think. If they're lower than Sidewinders, i'd at least give Sidewinders a shot and see what you think. If you dont like them, Sidewinders rarely last more than a day in the for sale forum here before they're gone. Easy sell.

Start there, go up. You can pry my Scarlet Vipers from my cold, dead hands.

concealer404

vc69 wrote: »

Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

Cables matter. Everything matters

heiney9 wrote: »

Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

H9

Ditto to both of the above.

vc69

I have to say this as well... That AI pre isn't going to let the TFM shine like it could. There are several bottlenecks in front of it.

treitz3

I forgot to mention last night that if you don't want to tackle the crossover upgrades yourself, we have a gentleman here that has done many crossover upgrades and he could do it for you. I'm sure you've seen him around the forum, his name is Ben.

snow

heiney9 wrote: »

No, but the pre is just as important as the amp. A poor choice/match with a pre-amp might not give the results you are looking for.

There are no easy answers in this hobby and it comes down to a certain amount of trial and error if you are looking for the best possible system based on your likes and dislikes.

H9

Agreed there are some very nice pre's that you can use with the TFM-55

newrival wrote: »

I agree. And thats really how I've approached it for a while. I experiment a lot. Switching this for that, etc. The problem was that when I had the Carvers, I didn't keep anything. If after I tried it in all conceivable combinations with the gear I had and didn't like it, I'd sell it. I know there a re a few guys around here that have shelves fll of pres and amos and cables and sources, I just was never the person, and I think that makes my process a difficult one. FOrums like this are beneficial because there are people that have tried several different combinations and have found ones that work. Many of those times it was using gear that is somewhat common, and easily attainable, in the used market. If people throw some well matching associated gear out there, I'm willing to try it. Like the suggestion of the C-1 with the tfm-55. That's a good lead. I've got have the equation already and finding the c-1 may not pose too much of a problem.

I care enough about this topic that I'm willing to try suggestions that I can manage with little monetary investment. The good thing is that Carver prices are somewhat reliable, it seems, and so resale should be easy if I need to pick up a C-1.

The C-1 is a very very good pre for the money and has stood the test of time and many more expensive pre's have had their **** handed to them in my system, there are of course is always better ones out there but not many if any for the money involved. Also the C-1 is made to match up with the TFM-55 on a signal voltage level which can make a huge difference in how an amp sounds.

heiney9 wrote: »

Silver, generally speaking, also has less bass and less bass extension, in my experience.

H9

No doubt it has been my experience also, Some can sound very good with no noticable loss of bass but there the higher dollar ones ive tried.

treitz3 wrote: »

I forgot to mention last night that if you don't want to tackle the crossover upgrades yourself, we have a gentleman here that has done many crossover upgrades and he could do it for you. I'm sure you've seen him around the forum, his name is Ben.

Great idea

REGARDS SNOW

erniejade

Audible Illusions Modulus 3b (tube pre? thats a decent pre in my opinion with the right tubes should sound better then a c1.?

ohskigod

vc69 wrote: »

Damn sure does, and IMO doesn't really work well unless you have a component that is "soft" or too laid back. Silver definitely has a different sound and to my ears, too bright in almost every application.

Cables matter. Everything matters

+1 and then some. for my ears, silver is a fail

newrival

vc69 wrote: »

I have to say this as well... That AI pre isn't going to let the TFM shine like it could. There are several bottlenecks in front of it.

Well I do have tubes to roll through the Audible Illusions. I've never really thought of it as a bottleneck because it's been such a great performer. Not to mention it has remained flexible with my gear through tube changes. and the phono section is pretty good.

Have you had a bad experience with the a Modulus pre before?

newrival

snow wrote: »

Agreed there are some very nice pre's that you can use with the TFM-55

Can you list a few that have worked for you?

inspiredsports

concealer404 wrote: »

That's what i was going for. Again, as i said earlier in this thread, all ears are different, but i haven't found a silver cable in my setup that i liked. (No offense meant to Ben.)

I like a warm, lush, full sound, even if it possibly means it comes at the expense of the best sparkling highs ever. Copper is what calls to me.

Try the Audioquest cables you have, and see what you think. If they're lower than Sidewinders, i'd at least give Sidewinders a shot and see what you think. If you dont like them, Sidewinders rarely last more than a day in the for sale forum here before they're gone. Easy sell.

Start there, go up. You can pry my Scarlet Vipers from my cold, dead hands.

That's been my overall experience (so far) too, but I have 5 or 6 pairs of Ben's Silver IC's I'll never part with.

And here's why: Like so many have said, it's all about synergy. Eventually you will have a situation or component that just won't sound quite right until silver IC's are put in place.

It's the ultimate in fine-tuning, but once you get to a certain point, the various differences in inductance/capacitance/resistance of various cables will allow you to subtly tweak the sound quality of your system.

heiney9

There is just no way to jump into this hobby and do things quickly. I've been doing it for over 20 years and just recently found my little piece of nirvana and I'm sure I still have more to find.

You just follow advice, try and evaluate different pieces until you find what you like. But the process is slow if you do it correctly. You can't just demo a piece or two for a couple weeks. And sometimes if you change something else in the chain you need to revisit pieces you have already evaluated and they may take on new life. I recently had this happen with a pair of tubes. I modded my DAC and now some tubes I didn;t especially care for are now my main tubes. It can be a like a dog chasing its tail sometimes, but if you are invested in the hobby and open to what moving up the chain can offer...........the rewards are very, very satisfying.

H9

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

That's been my overall experience (so far) too, but I have 5 or 6 pairs of Ben's Silver IC's I'll never part with.

And here's why: Like so many have said, it's all about synergy. Eventually you will have a situation or component that just won't sound quite right until silver IC's are put in place.

It's the ultimate in fine-tuning, but once you get to a certain point, the various differences in inductance/capacitance/resistance of various cables will allow you to subtly tweak the sound quality of your system.

As a counterpoint. I had Ben's IC's and speaker cables and was disappointed in them for my rig. And my rig is very warm sounding. Even tried using them separately. They were no match for my MIT's.

H9