Carver amps - can someone explain this?

snow · December 2010

newrival wrote: »

just a quick clarification:

I'm not quite sure I would consider an observation an attack of any kind, let alone a blatant one. But for the sake of argument, I will concede that it was a stern observation.

I've owned several SDA's. SDA1, CRS+, SDA2b, and SRS's. For several years, and listened to almost all combinations of amps and speakers.

Can you please point to where I ever denied that point? I have no problem debating any and all points of my assertions, but please stick to the facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHLKERU0wo&feature=player_profilepage[/URL

I'm fully aware of that video, and have been vocal on how big of a fan I am of Sal's work on his speakers. I had forgotten he uses Carver gear, so that probably means his comment earlier in the thread was one of passive condescension rather than a joke, which is why I originally returned in favor (or so I thought). *sorry for he mix-up there*

Back to the point: The fact that you are offering up a youtube video as evidence of how well a piece of audio equipment reproduces music is absolutely comical. I hope I don't have to explain why

BTW I am sticking to the facts refer to post #9 in this thread stating that the heart of the matter is people mistake watts for current. Therby insuating that Carver doesnt have both.

The reason for showing Sals video is to show you that the Carver amps have the current needed to push the SDA's. But since you have listened to virtually all amps ever made on your SDA's you dont need our help.

Face it you started this thread as A Carver bash to stir up the crap, I think you should take your troll like self and jump off a bridge.

shack · December 2010

I've never been a big fan of Carver amps. I prefer NAD and Parasound (John Curl designs blow Carver out of the water IMO). That said...I've heard some pretty nice rigs with Carvers (they mate especially well with Amazings)...but just not my cup-o-tea.

RuSsMaN · December 2010

Carver has a lot of great amps, and when they work, they tend to work well. They are a natural match for SDA's and a lot of other speakers that were sold at the same time they were. Granted, some are getting long in the tooth, some designs are better than others - but they are for the most part, neutral sounding, solid, reliable power for not a lot of scratch.

I've had an m200t, m400a, TFM-15, 35, 45, 6cb, and run a M500t right now to a pair of RT7's.

Is there better out there, sure. Is there worse, sure.

tonyb · December 2010

Snow,
I brought up the watts/current thing and he was agreeing with me. Was a general statement by me and had no bearing on Carver. Some do equate mega watts to quality sound, but again,a general statement. I don't think the OP is bashing, he just had a bad experience in the past and maybe trying to see if it was something he did wrong because so many here love carvers and sda's. A personal preference thing in my book but in no way reflective on Carver as a whole. We all have been around this block a time or two over the years and we know to take this stuff with a grain of salt.

jinjuku · December 2010

Did Bob Carver ever have a mission statement? He always struck me as half-engineer / half mad scientist type.

In retrospective was it cool that the M400 weighed a few pounds? Sure. My DC300A weighed in at 60+. The Crown just seemed like a straight up get the problem solved type amp. I was never quite sure what the M400 was supposed to solve. Most times it didn't matter what it weighed because it was going to simply sit there.

snow · December 2010

tonyb wrote: »

Snow,
I brought up the watts/current thing and he was agreeing with me. Was a general statement by me and had no bearing on Carver. Some do equate mega watts to quality sound, but again,a general statement. I don't think the OP is bashing, he just had a bad experience in the past and maybe trying to see if it was something he did wrong because so many here love carvers and sda's. A personal preference thing in my book but in no way reflective on Carver as a whole. We all have been around this block a time or two over the years and we know to take this stuff with a grain of salt.

Tony I have a great deal of respect for you and I appreciate your view of matters but in this case I will have to disagree. He has no desire to re try Carver gear with his speakers whatever they may be and there certainly is no way we could possibly help him without knowing everything he had in the food chain anyhow, Certainly a poor set of IC's coupled with just about any piece of gear will make it sound like crap for example. He started out with a blanket statement saying that Carver gear sucked and then stated they were also overpriced. Well he is entitled to his oppinion of Carver amps certainly but to do so in the manner he did was IMHO simply looking for a fight no different than an EMO owner stating that their amp is better than anything else out there at ten times the price or someone saying that MIT cables suck and their overpriced.

REGARDS SNOW

gdb · December 2010

If somebody needs something so incredibly basic as the OP's question explained to them...........maybe they're in the wrong hobby to begin with ?

Why do the stars keep on shining, why do...........

newrival · December 2010

fastz28 wrote: »

my 1.5t rebuild by roland make my dcm time windows sing like no tomorrow and bass to shake pics off the wall

I miss my TimeWindows. I had the originals and the squareds. I loved em. My friendis putting them to good use with a full minimax system. They've never sounded better. Glad to see another DCM fan out there.

Have you put your TW's on spikes? I noticed a significant jump in clarity when when they were added.

newrival · December 2010

snow wrote: »

BTW I am sticking to the facts refer to post #9 in this thread stating that the heart of the matter is people mistake watts for current. Therby insuating that Carver doesnt have both.

My words: "My impression is just as you stated, Tony, 'People mistake current for watts all the time.' And I fear that this is the heart of the issue." If you'll notice, I'm not insinuating anything, there is no ambiguity here. I am stating plainly that I have a fear, then I state my fear. Simple. Done. Perhaps you mean insinuate. I was just guessing from your spelling.

snow wrote: »

The reason for showing Sals video is to show you that the Carver amps have the current needed to push the SDA's. But since you have listened to virtually all amps ever made on your SDA's you dont need our help.

Fantastic, but the amp could be clipping for all I know. Wait, before you start thinking that I'm insinuating something, take a breath and read my words. I'm saying that a youtube video is no evidence of quality. play the video and listen, you really think that is indicative of how his system sounds? I'm sure it's nothing short of fantastic, but being recorded through a camera's microphone and uploaded to youtube turns it into a garbled mess. If you think that moving the drivers is an indication of an amplifiers mettle, you're mistaken. There's no arguing that. Sure, one can look at the video and surmise that based on some visual characteristics and some aural cues, that sure they probably sound good, but there's no way to be sure. Perhaps next, you'll send me a youtube video demonstrating the SDA effect... Would you purchase speakers or stereo components based on hearing them in a you tube video? If soyou must be an Emotiva fan. (sorry, I actually have never heard Emo gear before but it seemed pretty funny to me and I though some of the tube hardliners might get a kick out of it :biggrin:)

snow wrote: »

Face it you started this thread as A Carver bash to stir up the crap, I think you should take your troll like self and jump off a bridge.

You really have some pent up aggression in there fella'.I had no such intention. Although I appreciate the free psychoanalysis, I have a pretty good grasp on reality and am acutely aware of my intentions. My intentions were to start a conversation. And look what happened, I got one. Some have actually presented some sound explanations, and explained why they like them, and then there were those who told me to jump off a bridge.

newrival · December 2010

gdb wrote: »

If somebody needs something so incredibly basic as the OP's question explained to them...........maybe they're in the wrong hobby to begin with ? Why do the stars keep on shining, why do...........

What is this incredibly basic question that I asked? And if you think that "why do the stars keep shining?" is an example of an incredibly basic question that shouldn't need answering, I'm wondering if you even know the real answer. And I'm guessing the ellipses are there because you ran out of other incredibly basic questions to further shame me with.

There was no formally structured question at first. It was just simply "here's what I think, tell me why I'm wrong." I'm not going to pontificate on your aptitude for logical thought, well not here, but I would like to redirect with a question: what is the point of this forum if not to know others' opinions? You and Capt. Cheerful can tell me I'm in the wrong hobby or to jump off a bridge but I enjoy this hobby, and to be quite blunt, I don't get my feelings hurt over some ****'s comment on a forum. So wipe your nose, and try not to take this ****'s comments too seriously.

george daniel · December 2010

eh,,, Tubes

Erik Tracy · December 2010

I dunno, this all seemed like another 'why is your baby so ugly' thread.

Was there really a question behind this...or an agenda????

And don't lie...EVERYONE has an agenda.

newrival · December 2010

snow wrote: »

He has no desire to re try Carver gear with his speakers whatever they may be

You're wrong.
I'm headed to pick up that tfm-55 from my friend in 10 minutes, much to my wife's chagrin. hahaha

snow wrote: »

and there certainly is no way we could possibly help him without knowing everything he had in the food chain anyhow, Certainly a poor set of IC's coupled with just about any piece of gear will make it sound like crap for example.

So if that's what you need to help me, why not ask? This is the first glimpse of any benfeficial thought you've shared. Out of the gate you were determined to make me the bad guy, the "troll." I'm opening myself up here. I've said a dozen times that people love these amps and I want to make it work. Although, you do know my intentions better than myself...
As a side note, why does this feel so much like a domestic dispute?

snow wrote: »

He started out with a blanket statement saying that Carver gear sucked and then stated they were also overpriced.

Never happened. In fact I stated that was not what I was saying at all. As far as the overpriced part, here is where you can use you're word "insinuated" because I did. In the 2nd hand market, however. New, I think they were priced fantastically.

snow wrote: »

Well he is entitled to his opinion of Carver amps certainly

as are all of us

snow wrote: »

but to do so in the manner he did was IMHO simply looking for a fight

wait, so is it your opinion or was it my intention? Are you loosing your mental connection with me?

snow wrote: »

no different than an EMO owner stating that their amp is better than anything else out there at ten times the price or someone saying that MIT cables suck and their overpriced.

Are you saying Emo's aren't better than anything else out there 10x the price? And if so, is it ok for Carver guys to say that? Because they certainly have, In this thread even, and I don't see you telling them to jump off a bridge.

Polkersince85 · December 2010

Maybe the Carver was showing the short comings of his DCMs. I think he has an agenda. I personally don't believe he has "owned " all those different amps and speakers, especially the SDA's. One of them would still be with him. What is his current setup (or is he actually looking to buy a Carver and fishing for opinions).

I like my TFM-55s and 2.3TLs just because...

gdb · December 2010

can someone explain this?

Here's yer question , chief, verbatim ! Look upon,lick,nibble& bite my glistening Schweddy Balls !:biggrin: Everybody calm down and take a breath!

All I'm saying is, if you can not extract yer answer from voluminous posts on the subject of Carver/Polk, well, remedial reading comprehension classes MIGHT be indicated. Or you're just looking to "stir the pot' so to speak....... either way, listen to gear that makes your ears happy and your wallet sad or sumthin like that.

Hey, how long since Monster crap's been in the crosshairs anyway ???

gdb · December 2010

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Maybe the Carver was showing the short comings of his DCMs. I think he has an agenda. I personally don't believe he has "owned " all those different amps and speakers, especially the SDA's. One of them would still be with him. What is his current setup (or is he actually looking to buy a Carver and fishing for opinions).

I like my TFM-55s and 2.3TLs just because...

I like my TFM-55s and 2.3TLs just because

That right there is pretty much my dream/goal rig !!

newrival · December 2010

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I dunno, this all seemed like another 'why is your baby so ugly' thread.

Was there really a question behind this...or an agenda????

And don't lie...EVERYONE has an agenda.

Another member has contacted me regarding this very thing. I didn't think people would get THIS bothered by it.

The truth is I did have an agenda. It was to discuss Carver amplifiers and their pairing with SDA's. Its gotten derailed a few times but there has been some very good responses. I hadn't considered the fact that back when I tried them I had the opinion that cables were cables were cables. I now don't believe that is the case and have since purchased a few decent sets. The conversation has been largely beneficial. I think a couple people here ended up a little bruised, but I'm sure they'll be ok after they kick their dogs or something.

Here's what I knew coming into the discussion:

a lot of SDA owners have said, "you need a lot of power for those speakers," "they really sing after 200W," "you really need more power to see what those babies can do." And to tell you the truth I've caught myself repeating that garbage. And it IS garbage. SDA's don't NEED high wattage. Lets say you have SRS's, like me. let's also say you listen to music louder than orchestra music, i don't. And finally lets say you have an arbitrary room of 16' x 22' with 8' ceilings and that's what was used to get your sensitivity rating (92db/1W/1m). At 110db, you're using 63W. At 115db you're using 125W. Sure but youre not 1m away. fine, lets say youre 3m away. You still havent hit 200W. And this is 115db. Hearing damage level. THX reference max SPL is 105db, if that gives any indication here. I keep mine around 100. I would bet most people do too. I also sit 8' away. This means that with 5db of headroom (3 is min. recommended) im looking at around a 40W/ch amp. As long as it's high current and the dynamic capacity is there, that's all a person needs to reach the aforementioned sound level. at that's into 4 ohm on the example speaker.

I wanted to know what about the Carver amps was appealing to ohers and why. I knew people liked them but I didn't know the reason. My fear was that people hadn't tried other amps because they feared they need "lots of wattage to open em up." So i set the stage for people to discuss this in a casual way, and I thought it has been quite interesting.

newrival · December 2010

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Maybe the Carver was showing the short comings of his DCMs. I think he has an agenda. I personally don't believe he has "owned " all those different amps and speakers, especially the SDA's. One of them would still be with him. What is his current setup (or is he actually looking to buy a Carver and fishing for opinions).

I like my TFM-55s and 2.3TLs just because...

Perhaps the DCM's were the bad part of the chain. you could be right. But it didnt appear to be that way form my experiments.

If you don't believe I owned the SDA's why don't you ask the people who bought them off me, they're all members here. I still have my SRS's and will supply pics if you don't believe me.

newrival · December 2010

gdb wrote: »

Here's yer question , chief, verbatim ! Look upon,lick,nibble& bite my glistening Schweddy Balls !:biggrin: Everybody calm down and take a breath! All I'm saying is, if you can not extract yer answer from voluminous posts on the subject of Carver/Polk, well, remedial reading comprehension classes MIGHT be indicated. Or you're just looking to "stir the pot' so to speak....... either way, listen to gear that makes your ears happy and your wallet sad or sumthin like that. Hey, how long since Monster crap's been in the crosshairs anyway ???

hahaha. funny reference :biggrin:

Anyways,
The true question was an over-reaching one. If this was specifically the question I wanted answered then a yes or a no would have ended the whole thing.

I won't even get into the reading comprehension issue given your assessment of what "my real question" was.

And this is an online forum, not the library of congress. My topic is different than ones i've found here. You act like Club Polk is the Wizard of Oz and I have to ask my question and be done with it. Theres a thread full of pictures of people's cats and you're trying to tell me THIS one has no value. It obviously has enough that you've read through it. By the way, thanks for participating.

newrival · December 2010

gdb wrote: »

I like my TFM-55s and 2.3TLs just because

That right there is pretty much my dream/goal rig !!

Well I'm going to try the 55 on my SRS's this week and see what I think. Who knows, I may love it this time around.

Fongolio · December 2010

Ok, let me throw this out at you guys. I can trade my spare Carver TFM-25 for a vintage Eico ST-70 (35 watts per channel) tube integrated amp. The net has tons of info on rebuilding this vintage gem. Many here say that 35 tube watts is plenty for my 1C's. Should I do it? Is it a reasonable swap. I've read that the Eico is better than the Dynaco ST-70 tube amp. Insert any and all opinions below. I'm not trying to derail the thread. I think it goes along with the spirit of the original intent by the op.

gdb · December 2010

I say try it ! TFMs are plentiful, whereas vintage tubers, not nearly as much.

newrival · December 2010

gdb wrote: »

I say try it ! TFMs are plentiful, whereas vintage tubers, not nearly as much.

I second this. Go for it! I think you could easily make the swap back if needed. But make sure you update us on what you think!

And I agree that it's in the same spirit of the thread, and glad you think so! :biggrin:

treitz3 · December 2010

newrival wrote: »

Well I'm going to try the 55 on my SRS's this week and see what I think. Who knows, I may love it this time around.

It'll most likely bottom out, be lacking on authoritative bass and have not the most fluid of mids. The 45 would probably do those speak's more justice.

I have many things to say about your question, but right now I'm being entertained by the responses. Carry on....

erniejade · December 2010

Let me know how you like it on the polks. if you want sometime I can bring the sunfire sig II 625x2 to hear on them.

Tony M · December 2010

My Sunfire sig. 600/2 runs pretty cool powering my 4-0hm SRS2's.

My Onkyo Integra M502 heated up too hot to touch it almost.
I didn't like that. I thought something would fail in short order..:frown:

I bought my Sunfire on a couple of members advice 2 years ago I think. It (the whole system you could say)has amazed a few to go buy there own SDA-SRS's the next day...

The amp? the speakers? Player? the other 2 factors, who knows , but synergy was right.

I think I have strayed a little downward from those days. Just a little though.

I have noticed a sound change since I;

switched pre-amp
switched cd player
switched speaker wires
switched interconnect cables

I think it's my pre-amp for the little bit of dulling in the tweeters. That's all.

But,

I wanted a cool running amp for hard to drive 4 ohm speakers. I did research along with the advice and paid the price. I thought the volume knob would only have to go 1/4 dial max. I was wrong. It seems to be the same until 12:00 and then all hell could break loose if I wanted. I feel I'm not taxing my Sunfire ever and that makes me happy now.

I don't care about watts or amps or current, just the ability to do a job and be reliable.

I have not heard my SRS-2's with anything except the 2 amps mentioned above for the power supply. I have to try my Acurus A250 one day soon and my last Onkyo Integra M504 when I get the power relay fixed. Those will be fun times for sure and I'll get another example of how these wonderful speakers can sound, be it better or for worse.

comfortablycurt · December 2010

I don't get it either. I've heard several different pieces of Carver gear...and have never even been remotely impressed by them. I felt that my Adcom 545 was superior in essentially every way, aside from sheer power. Admittedly, I've never heard any of the higher end Carver pieces...but I have heard a decent variety of their "entry" level to mid level pieces.

snow · December 2010

Wow Newrival the verbal diarrhea that spills forth from your mouth is amazing and the fact that you think people will actully buy into your lies and BS is incredibile, you really need to think a lttle bit before you run your mouth.

Do you really think thay anyone in their right mind belives that you are going to borrow a TFM-55 from your friend to use on your SRS's after you said earlier that you had one for 8 months and you didnt like it? What do you think has changed since that time?

And why are you so desperate to retry things that hasnt worked in the past? it makes no sense. You say you know of many better amps, fine then use them. Why even bring up Carver gear unless your looking to stir up the crap?

The way you worded your opening statement says it all. If you truly were looking to understand why so many Polk owners like Carver gear and you actually had an experemint in mind you would have said so then.

You are simply making up s@#t as you go along.

Sorry I call BS your a liar and a troll.

SNOW

erniejade · December 2010

snow wrote: »

Do you really think thay anyone in their right mind belives that you are going to borrow a TFM-55 from your friend to use on your SRS's after you said earlier that you had one for 8 months and you didnt like it? What do you think has changed since that time?

And why are you so desperate to retry things that hasnt worked in the past? it makes no sense. You say you know of many better amps, fine then use them. Why even bring up Carver gear unless your looking to stir up the crap?
SNOW

The way i took it is he is trying to hear what other people are hearing. He also did say it was possible that the carver amps were mismatched with the speakers he was using.
Do I believe him yes. Is he closed minded about trying things, far from it. He is like many of us here that try speakers and amps out a lot just seeing what the differences are or looking for that " perfect" system. Part of the fun is trying out different things.

I honestly believe he is trying to hear the magic between the sda and the carver amplifiers. I never once took this as a carver bash or him being closed minded otherwise he would never have even tried them in the past. He has a set of SRS and wants to hear what other people hear. The carver he is picking up though is going against a darn good amp though. That should be a fun shootout and I hope he lets us know his results.

Newrival you did mention in your first statement not counting sunfire. Have you had any sunfires in your rig? If so, what one and what is your take on them against other amps you have had?

My sig II holds its own darn good. Enough that I am considering getting a 300x2. It is coming down to trying out a Sunfire 300x2 or an bryston 4b and probably selling the McIntosh. They run close in used price ( the slightly older 4b not the 1st ones but i think it would be the 2nd or 3rd)

With many of the statements on here, I agree on synergy in the system. I have heard things on my system that i like and then bring the amp or preamp ( carver c-19 gone over by rolland) over to a friends house, using sda 1.2 and a B&K amp , Halfer Iris modded cd player, and my c-19 just didnt sound right in his system. It did not have the same magic as I had on my rig.

Same speakers, different cd player and amp, and my pre just didn't sound right but, in my system using the 1.2's McIntosh 2105 or the adcom 555, jolida cd, ben's IC's ( great for the $ thanks again ben) and AQ crystal speaker cables or the AQ type 4, sounded 1000000 % different to me.

Anyway I honestly think the OP was really trying to figure out what is he missing and trying to spark a conversation at the same time.

snow · December 2010

erniejade wrote: »

The way i took it is he is trying to hear what other people are hearing. He also did say it was possible that the carver amps were mismatched with the speakers he was using.
Do I believe him yes. Is he closed minded about trying things, far from it. He is like many of us here that try speakers and amps out a lot just seeing what the differences are or looking for that " perfect" system. Part of the fun is trying out different things.

I honestly believe he is trying to hear the magic between the sda and the carver amplifiers. I never once took this as a carver bash or him being closed minded otherwise he would never have even tried them in the past. He has a set of SRS and wants to hear what other people hear. The carver he is picking up though is going against a darn good amp though. That should be a fun shootout and I hope he lets us know his results.

Newrival you did mention in your first statement not counting sunfire. Have you had any sunfires in your rig? If so, what one and what is your take on them against other amps you have had?

My sig II holds its own darn good. Enough that I am considering getting a 300x2. It is coming down to trying out a Sunfire 300x2 or an bryston 4b and probably selling the McIntosh. They run close in used price ( the slightly older 4b not the 1st ones but i think it would be the 2nd or 3rd)

With many of the statements on here, I agree on synergy in the system. I have heard things on my system that i like and then bring the amp or preamp ( carver c-19 gone over by rolland) over to a friends house, using sda 1.2 and a B&K amp , Halfer Iris modded cd player, and my c-19 just didnt sound right in his system. It did not have the same magic as I had on my rig.

Same speakers, different cd player and amp, and my pre just didn't sound right but, in my system using the 1.2's McIntosh 2105 or the adcom 555, jolida cd, ben's IC's ( great for the $ thanks again ben) and AQ crystal speaker cables or the AQ type 4, sounded 1000000 % different to me.

Anyway I honestly think the OP was really trying to figure out what is he missing and trying to spark a conversation at the same time.

Ernie I respect your assement of the situation but I simply dont agree with it. When asked about whether he has actually tried the Carver gear he mentioned with Polks he said yes he had tried all of the amps including the TFM-55 with every one of his various Polk speakers including if I read it correctly the SRS's

I've owned several SDA's. SDA1, CRS+, SDA2b, and SRS's. For several years, and listened to almost all combinations of amps and speakers.

so considering this info coupled with his beginning post and the fact he didndt say in his opening statement that he was going to once again try it and wanted help with that I can come to to no other conclusion other than that it was meant to stir up the crap rather than an honest attempt at asking for help.

If at some point he brings this amp home hooks it up and says it still has weak flabby uncontrolled bass and lists the components including IC's and speaker wire I will be happy to offer any asistance that I can in resolving this so he is happy.

If in fact this is what he wanted help with in the first place he should have said so rather than what he said....

I don't get it. Why do I see so many SDA and SRS owners with Carver amps? Don't get me wrong I've owned my share: m400, m400t, 1.5t, 4.0t, tfm-35, tfm-55 (borrowed for 8 months). But seriously, I don't get what people see in these. Is it the wattage sticker? their lean, uncontrolled, and sometimes down-right flabby bass? I know Polk SDA's and SRS's arent the definition of transparent speakers, but still, they're transparent enough to let me know these are amps meant for lesser speakers.

He wasnt asking for help with a particular amp speaker setup in this statement he simply was stating that all the Carver amps he had used on his SDA's had sucked and were worth far less than what they are currently selling for, at least thats how I read it.

REGARDS SNOW

Carver amps - can someone explain this?

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