cable break in believer
Comments
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Your test is flawed. Let me repeat that since you have a hard time grasping things around here, your test is flawed. Now, before you go spewing BS out of your Johnson licker, hear me out.
I didn't purport any test. The receiver of the cables gets to test in whatever manner of their choosing. I am simply providing a some parts that go into the testing rig.Nobody would be able to pass your test accurately. If they do [and I doubt anybody could], it would be just plain dumb luck. First and foremost, the test would obviously have to be done in stereo. That's 2 channels. Count them, 1, 2. That's it. OK, now that we have established that the test will have to be done on two channels we have now determined the fundamental flaw in your challenge.
Two channels is normal to stereo listening, no?How can you tell if 1 IC is broken in when you have 2 separate channels with 2 separate signals? You can't. Even if it were a mono signal, the changes in room acoustics between the R & L channel [in an estimated 98% of board members listening rooms] would alter the outcome. Stereo effect is just that, stereo. Without it, you completely lose the sound stage that stereo presents.
Other people are stating there is a difference in their setup, room acoustics between R&L channels, et al. That is when everything is the same excepting x or y there was a change. Are the people that hear a difference only listening in mono? Either burned in cable makes an audible difference (follow the ball under cup) or it doesn't. 1.0/2.0/5.0 what have you.That stereo image is the #1 thing I [personally] pick up on when hearing changes within the system. Those that have well trained ears would most likely agree. Sure, the frequencies may change but with the test you presented but....even if someone was to pick out the pair of burnt in cables....it might sound better or worse to them in their rig. Same goes for the new pair. Let me repeat, your test is flawed.
You don't understand: I am not performing any test. I don't know how to make that any more clear. You get the benefit of evaluating said cables any way you see fit.
Explained another way: You aren't picking out 2 burned in cables in actuality. You are grouping cables together based on audibility. When you either group the non-burned in or burned in correctly you will ALSO have identified the 2nd group correctly. The discriminate in this is simply a change in audibility.That said, since your intentions have obviously been pre-planned? I wouldn't doubt for one second that you have planned to give out 1 burned in cable and all the rest being new or even no burned in cables at all being sent. In other words, I don't trust you. With your blatant intentions of thread crapping and predictions of what's to go down? I doubt anybody else on this board would either.
My intentions/hope was to get some one to take up a friendly wager. My predictions is that no one would. So I'm a **** because I knew how it was going to go down? Just like I know how a thread with Emotiva in it will go? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
The offer still stands.
Just like you I am allowed to make predictions based on past information. Since when is forecasting a crime? Stock brokers do it all the time. Again I have two cables that are in my setup currently and another 25 foot coiled up unused. On the trust issue: don't participate then. -
I have talked to brick walls that are smarter than you.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I am practially speechless as to how utterly ridiculous that is.
It's your beliefs that are ridiculous. Tell me, if there really is a difference, why can't it be demonstrated?
I could ask you why you argue your side as well. And why you continually give people bad advice about cables, based purely on a myth. -
Nice.
I wonder if he "predicted" you'd say that?
You seem more the type to believe in predictions and future telling. Probably all kinds of nonsense. -
It's your beliefs that are ridiculous. Tell me, if there really is a difference, why can't it be demonstrated?
I could ask you why you argue your side as well. And why you continually give people bad advice about cables, based purely on a myth.
I am completely nuetral in this debate, but if I could ask, what ICs and speaker cables do you run in your system? -
I have talked to brick walls that are smarter than you.
You talk to brick walls? And then question his intelligence? -
I have talked to brick walls that are smarter than you.
You simply can't grasp the fact that I'm not the one performing a test. Wow. -
Just like you I am allowed to make predictions based on past information. Since when is forecasting a crime?
My prediction was correct, you are a troll.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I am completely nuetral in this debate, but if I could ask, what ICs and speaker cables do you run in your system?
How is that relevant? I use a mix of 12 guage and 14 guage wire, I didn't concern myself with the brand. IC's are from parts express, stock weren't long enough. What IC's and speaker wire do you use? -
Ken,
Shut this troll infested thread down......PLEASE!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
How is that relevant? I use a mix of 12 guage and 14 guage wire, I didn't concern myself with the brand. IC's are from parts express, stock weren't long enough. What IC's and speaker wire do you use?
Just a curious question. I have Terminator 4 speaker cables I bought used and AQ Sidewinders / King Cobras, also used. I started off with Blue Jeans Beldin 10 white about 4 years ago, now this wire is used for surround duty only. -
It's your beliefs that are ridiculous. Tell me, if there really is a difference, why can't it be demonstrated?
Why do you care, you already admitted you can't/don't hear a difference. Why on this earth do you care?I could ask you why you argue your side as well. And why you continually give people bad advice about cables, based purely on a myth.
How do you know it's a myth? Your belief is, if YOU can't hear it then it doesn't exist? But, others have to prove to you, through their own hearing, that they hear it, just so you continue not to hear it.
Why?
Why?
Why?
Are you trying to save someone from spending too much on audio gear?
Seriously, WHY? I have an idea why, but I'll hold my words
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Sure you can hear a difference. Why are you so threatened that others don't believe your fairy tales?
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Why do the birds go on singing
Why do these eyes of mine cry
Don't they know, it's the end of the world
It ended when you said goodbye...
Sorry, Karen Carpenter moment.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
It's your beliefs that are ridiculous. Tell me, if there really is a difference, why can't it be demonstrated?
I could ask you why you argue your side as well. And why you continually give people bad advice about cables, based purely on a myth.
The difference can be demonstrated. You (and other "non-believers") simply cannot hear the difference (as you stated). End of story. Sorry, there's no way to prove something to you that you cannot hear (if we are talking about audible differences as Jinjuku stated). I would simply accept that you cannot hear what some others hear and be done with it. It would save you and others a lot of time and wasted banter.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Maybe it would save someone from keeping a piece of audio gear that they otherwise would not, based upon the idea that at some point the cables that they spent their money on and didn't like would miraculously get better. There are plenty of purchases made entirely on hype, and when someone says they don't like how a cable sounds they should get rid of it rather than keep a poor investment.
And once again 'level headed' people make the absurd statement that the cables have to be expensive in order for burn in to take effect. Why would a piece of aluminum coated in rubber "burn in" less than a piece of silver coated in Teflon? And what changes within the metal that makes the music sound better?Current System:
Paradigm Signature S2 v2
Conrad Johnson MF2500
Wyred4Sound DAC2
Audioquest Black Mamba II
For Sale:
3x Wilson Cub's
Conrad Johnson MF2500 -
Sure you can hear a difference. Why are you so threatened that others don't believe your fairy tales?
William
The difference is, non-believers seem to not be content with just stating their opinion, they then want to discredit those who feel premium cables make a difference. Attack, and you shall be attacked. You & I have seen it in every cable thread. I respect your opinion--I too think there are more important things to focus your audio dollars on, but if someone wishes to experiment with other cables, why does that have to become a voo-doo science free-for-all everytime? I think the most important aspect with cables is good construction, good materials, and a topology that I can relate some sense to--but, if that cable sounds dry and 2-dimensional in my system--it has to go. I also believe that you don't have to spend alot of money to get there, of course that's my personal opinion.
Bottom line, no one is interested nor needs to explain their choices.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
The problem is, the topic is discussed (both sides) as if it were fact. It's not, on either side of the argument. It's personal opinion and observance by individuals. You may as well discuss creationism vs evolution--people will believe what has been demonstrated to them in a personal, meaningful way.
Brock's "ice cream" analogy was spot-on. It's just that simple.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
The difference can be demonstrated. You (and other "non-believers") simply cannot hear the difference (as you stated).
Greg
Hence the friendly wager :rolleyes: -
The problem is, the topic is discussed (both sides) as if it were fact. It's not, on either side of the argument. It's personal opinion and observance by individuals. You may as well discuss creationism vs evolution--people will believe what has been demonstrated to them in a personal, meaningful way.
As someone who doesn't really care either way, I agree with this.
Someone compared it to a color blind person insisting that the color red doens't exist. The problem with that comparison is that you can show a spectrum analysis of light and show that red DOES exist. These differences that people claim to hear with things like broken in cables aren't measurable that I have seen, nor is there some concrete science to any of it. So for someone who doesn't hear it, it makes it hard to accept. Those of you who do "believe" and hear these things, you have to understand this on some level, don't you?If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
Sure you can hear a difference. Why are you so threatened that others don't believe your fairy tales?
Why don't you answer my question as to why you care so emphatically? Why?
I'm not trying to convince you there is a difference, I'm trying to debate and understand why you care so much about proving there is no difference when you have clearly stated you can't hear a difference. And why you need my ears to prove/disprove what you've already stated you hear with your ears.
I get it, I undestand not everyone can or does or cares to hear a difference; that's all fine and dandy. You can't hear a difference case closed, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I don't understand why you want me or Steve or Mike or Larry to experiment with our ears and prove to you, an admitted person who can't hear a difference, that we can hear a difference.
How do you benefit from that kind of experiment? This question has been asked several different times in several ways, yet you and others elude it. I'm not sure why, unless you are just arguing to argue or some sort of chest pounding. Or perhaps you enjoy beating a dead horse.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
bobman1235 wrote: »Those of you who do "believe" and hear these things, you have to understand this on some level, don't you?
Absolutely. The problems in discussing it openly surface when people who can't hear the difference insist that those of us who can (like the op) are fools.
We can accept their inability to hear the difference. They appear to be unable to accept the FACT that we can.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Absolutely. The problems in discussing it openly surface when people who can't hear the difference insist that those of us who can (like the op) are fools.
We can accept their inability to hear the difference. They appear to be unable to accept the FACT that we can.
Then take the wager... -
Why don't you answer my question as to why you care so emphatically? Why?
I'm not trying to convince you there is a difference, I'm trying to debate and understand why you care so much about proving there is no difference when you have clearly stated you can't hear a difference. And why you need my ears to prove/disprove what you've already stated you hear with your ears.
I get it, I undestand not everyone can or does or cares to hear a difference; that's all fine and dandy. You can't hear a difference case closed, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I don't understand why you want me or Steve or Mike or Larry to experiment with our ears and prove to you, an admitted person who can't hear a difference, that we can hear a difference.
How do you benefit from that kind of experiment? This question has been asked several different times in several ways, yet you and others elude it. I'm not sure why, unless you are just arguing to argue or some sort of chest pounding. Or perhaps you enjoy beating a dead horse.
H9
I'm curious why other's continue to cling to beliefs that have been disproven time and time again. And why they try to push them as fact.
And for someone who's not trying to convince anyone, you sure have posted a lot in this thread. Although I sure wouldn't call it a debate. -
Sure you can hear a difference. Why are you so threatened that others don't believe your fairy tales?
no one is threatened that you do not hear a difference, they are insulted when you say people's experiences are "fairy tails"
how can you honestly look at your above quote and think your not one of the instigators here? not a people person are ya.
you never hear a differenc with cables? god bless ya. it's not like I spend huge money on cables, it isnt worth it to me...but I have heard differences and believe cables do make a difference.
I dont care if you dont believe it, I do care when you emphatically tell me they dont, to me, despite what my ears tell me.
good grief, how can facts be so hard nosed in something as subjective as audio anyway?Living Room 2 Channel -
Schiit SYS Passive Pre. Jolida CD player. Songbird streamer. California Audio Labs Sigma II DAC, DIY 300as1/a1 Ice modules Class D amp. LSi15 with MM842 woofer upgrade, Nordost Blue Heaven and Unity interconnects.
Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
Prometheus Ref. TVC passive pre, SAE A-205 Amp, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E50 DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Von Schweikert VR3.5 speakers.
Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Mac Mini, Aiyma A07 Max (BridgedX2), Totem Mites -
I am trying to understand why it's up to me to prove to you a difference exists? I never asked you to prove to me, with your ears, that a difference doesn't exist. I have always accepted what people believe based on whether or not they have tried to hear a difference.
You and others seem hell-bent on forcing those of us who have heard differences prove it to you, with our own ears, that a difference exisits when you've already stated in your experience a difference doesn't exist.
That is the most ridiculous paradigm I've ever heard of.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Operator, please connect me back to planet Earth.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Then take the wager...
I am not in least bit interested in your wager. Unlike you, I have absolutely zero interest in listening to YOUR cables. I love to listen to MY cables, which are the finest I can afford and which, by way of much trial and error, suit me best.
Break in? I dunno, all my cables were purchased used. So as to that, I have no real-world experience. I will say that given the information I have read and given the kind of cables I have found to sound best in my rig, cable break-in is not a myth.
Like Steve said, I can't tell you which of your cables are new and which are not, but I'd bet a hundred dollars I could hear the difference between yours and mine in my rig. Any day of the week.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
nevermind.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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Like Steve said, I can't tell you which of your cables are new and which are not, but I'd bet a hundred dollars I could hear the difference between yours and mine in my rig. Any day of the week.
but would you invite these people into your home? Living Room 2 Channel -
Schiit SYS Passive Pre. Jolida CD player. Songbird streamer. California Audio Labs Sigma II DAC, DIY 300as1/a1 Ice modules Class D amp. LSi15 with MM842 woofer upgrade, Nordost Blue Heaven and Unity interconnects.
Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
Prometheus Ref. TVC passive pre, SAE A-205 Amp, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E50 DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Von Schweikert VR3.5 speakers.
Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Mac Mini, Aiyma A07 Max (BridgedX2), Totem Mites
This discussion has been closed.