cable break in believer

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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,428
    edited October 2010
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    So Jinjuku let me get this straight. Prior to your coming in here and going on and on and fighting with people you PMed another member about how you were going to go about it?

    That's the very definition of trolling. What exactly is your goal around here, Jinjuku? Do you seek respect, comradery? drama?

    It seems that (much?) more than half the time you post it is in the threads where drama is happening, or has the potential to happen--particularly if there are one or several "certain someones" that you have an opportunity to align yourself against, or that you can bait into answering your posts (as you seem to be admitting to here).

    As such, my guess is that your main goal is to seek drama. I would hope that you could find more ways to meet your needs in the forum. There are more than a couple people whose posts regularly irritate me, but they also show in many ways that they're here to share in the community by doing a lot of posting that isn't high-tension, high-drama. If you would like to increase the amount of respect and comradery that comes your way, I would invite you to increase the ratio of your posts that aren't in such flammable threads. There are people in this very thread that have gone more than half-way to meet you, in order to include you and reduce the level of tension in this thread; you have ignored it in order to continue to lay kindling in hopes of a fire...

    I post this directly to you as that was where my attention was drawn, but this advice could well be heeded by many of us...

    To continue with the theme of many posts prior, you're entitled to rock out any way you see fit; no one is trying to tell you what you hear. Happy listening!

    Jay
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,428
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Not like I am going to lose any ways... I can only put it out there in good faith.

    I'm pretty sure that an offer can't be "in good faith" and "smarmy" at the same time...
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I never thought that putting some cash up for someone to do what they say they can do (hear the difference between a used and un-used cable) would generate so much angst and hand wringing among the subjectivist crowd. Must have really hit a nerve.

    You didn't hit a nerve with me.

    I told you I would be glad to participate in such a test, and free of charge, and I would pay shipping both ways, provided I was sent a cable I was actually interested in reviewing. The Belden does not do it for me. I have nothing against the Belden cable, I have just moved on from that level of cabling.

    Face and Ohskigod brought up the important issue of experimental controls. The cables could be mislabeled, intentionally or accidentally at your end. The evaluator, knowing they have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, could just take the cables out of the box, correctly guess the right cable, and send it back.

    What experimental controls do you propose for both the sender and evaluator?

    My offer still stands as well as my inquiry:
    DarqueKnight wrote: »

    To summarize, Jinjuku:

    1. Do you have proof that the majority, or even a plurality, of the AES membership subscribes to the ABX protocol for audio evauation?

    2. Do you find it odd that a major Audio Engineering Society conference was soliciting papers on audio applications of sensory testing methods used in the food and beverage industry?

    3. Assuming I had submited my article on "A Descriptive Evaluation Methodology for Consumer Audio Evaluation", to the AES conference mentioned above, do you think it would have been accepted? I ask because it seemed to be just the sort of thing they were looking for. However, I opted to have my article reviewed by experts in sensory analysis and published in a sensory analysis journal. Make sense?
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    I am not sure that the majority of Audio Engineering Society members subscribe to the ABX protocol for audio testing. In the late 1980's, David Clark, one of the founders of the ABX movement within the AES, was bitterly disappointed to find that the majority of audio engineers outright DISMISSED blind testing for audio:



    A lot can change in 20 years. Do you have any verifyable quantitative proof that the majority of AES members now subscribe to the ABX protocol? I am aware that some AES members believe this to be true, but I have never seen any proof of this supposition.

    I do know that the topic of a recent AES conference was the application of perceptual evaluation methodology to sound quality. These quotes were taken from the announcement flyer for the AES 38th International Conference on Sound Quality Evaluation, held in Pite
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    agfrost wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that an offer can't be "in good faith" and "smarmy" at the same time...

    It's not smarmy at all... It isn't intended to be. It's a faith of conviction. One which I am offering a bet to settle.

    You think you can hear a difference with a burned in cable vs same non. I believe otherwise. I am willing to pay you for your belief (that is if you can prove it).
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    I told you I would be glad to participate in such a test, and free of charge, and I would pay shipping both ways, provided I was sent a cable I was actually interested in reviewing. The Belden does not do it for me. I have nothing against the Belden cable, I have just moved on from that level of cabling.

    I am not asking for a review of a cable. I am asking that you simply pick a burned in cable from non-burned in cable using nothing more than speakers as a source and your human hearing as a measurement instrument. This is just a physics experiment.

    I am not asking for evaluation of audible improvement of brand x vs brand y. I am holding people to their beliefs of a burned in vs non same cable. The closest I can come to that is cable cut from the same manufacturing run so as not to have any issue with variability in production runs.

    I have two 12 foot runs from 50ft coil of cable and the rest has sat in a drawer.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,450
    edited October 2010
    Man i can't believe I missed all this while I was at work :(
    when i first read this earlier today I just knew i should of called in and got a good bit of vittles and a cold beverage to watch this unfold .....

    to the OP I too have had cables that have gotten better with time and in the same token I've had some that sounded very good right off and some that sounded very bad to me right off and never got any better sounding weather good or bad


    Off to find some food to watch the rest:D
    anybody need a beer while I'm going to the fridge?
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2010
    Do bananna plugs burn in and sound different? Just wondering.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited October 2010
    hehe s.d.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • fishbones
    fishbones Posts: 947
    edited October 2010
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    anybody need a beer while I'm going to the fridge?

    ...I'll take one!

    One thing you guys can't argue with...underwear burn-in. Fresh boxers definietely require a break-in period and I'll fight anyone that says otherwise. I'm burnin some in right now. Bwaahahahahaha :D
    ..... ><////(*>
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I never thought that putting some cash up for someone to do what they say they can do (hear the difference between a used and un-used cable) would generate so much angst and hand wringing among the subjectivist crowd. Must have really hit a nerve.

    and you know what really hits a nerve with me? The fact you PMed me and stated that you were just trying to "flush the crap" out of CP and that was in regards to Joe (hearingimpaired).

    That and then going and PMing someone regarding a topic and knowing full well that an argument would probably happened when you jumped in and then still going at it.

    That hits a nerve because you know FULL WELL what you are doing and that you are just stiring the pot.

    You don't give a crap about differences, never will, you just like to stir up trouble. And just because you claim you are laying money on the line doesn't mean a thing either.

    Pretty easy to come back if no one else would know which cable is what and say that the person got it wrong. Oh sorry B was really the one that was burned in, oh nope you chose B sorry A. See how easy it is?

    Its not like anyone else besides YOU would know, and taking your word for it? I highly doubt anyone would really want to do that seeing you don't really speak volumes of a great person to start with by your posting and what you say to begin with so why should that all of a sudden change?
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Which for $100 dollars and four cables you can use any method of your choosing. You just aren't allowed the bias of knowing which cable is which since the core argument is an audible difference between the two.

    All this because a member of our spectacular, world renowned forum, posted that he heard a difference in his burned in cables and you felt threatened enough to issue a "challenge" to the collective forum. Really?:p

    You have already said you didn't hear an audible difference between your used and unused Belden cables. That is proof enough for us. Why are you on the Internet begging to pay Polk forum members to test whether they can hear a difference in your homemade $14 per 12 foot pair (retail) speaker cables?

    1. Are you postulating that because you didn't hear a difference in your cables after a set number of hours that the original poster couldn't have heard a difference in his?

    2. Anyone has a 50% chance of winning your challenge. Assuming they pick the correct cable, what does that really prove? It might only prove that they are a lucky guesser.

    3. Why does your test subject have to be a member of our spectacular audio forum? If you set up appropriate, verifiable and repeatable controls and supervision, why not do the test locally and then report your results here or elsewhere?

    4. Why is it so difficult to grasp that the members of this forum just might not be interested in doing any sort of test with $14 homemade speaker cables.
    jinjuku wrote: »
    All you are doing is trying to throw up so much flak as to obfuscate the crux of the matter.

    The crux of the matter, for me, is that I have delicious sounding cables throughout my systems, they are burned in to perfection with the Audiodharma Cable Cooker and I'm happy with what I have.
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I still, and truly do, look forward to your paper.

    Great. Since you have such eager anticipation, I'm sure you will be pleased to be informed that the paper is available for download now from the JOSS website!
    jinjuku wrote: »
    AES is like any other organization: They aren't static. If something better comes along then I would hope they move to it.

    Are you withdrawing your previous implication that the majority of AES members are ABX believers?

    Rather than continue to clutter up this thread with your "generous" offer, I think it would be better to start a separate thread and solicit participants for your $100 Belden Burn In Bonanza. During these hard times, there has got to be one member who will take the cash you are so desperate to give away.

    Good luck.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • sm88
    sm88 Posts: 353
    edited October 2010
    Because clearly the price of the cable has a huge effect on whether or not it burns in. The $10,000 cables you so modestly boast of are obviously a better candidate than $100 cables. That is what this hobby is all about, right? Who spends the most money. The more expensive system is ALWAYS the best. His cables are too "inexpensive" to be worth listening to, and the peons who are so beneath you and your high consultation fee best cower before the 99.9999% pieces of silver you paid ten times the material cost for.

    When you get paid for "showing up, just for walking through the door, at a consultative session", do they lube the doors ahead of time? Or do they simply provide a special entrance that can accommodate the size of your head
    Current System:
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited October 2010
    Another brilliant post by Small Mind with an 88 IQ. Obviously this troll is only interested in itself, and is jealous of anyone with more than a 1960s transistor radio. Small Mind with an 88 IQ is just another troll with no experience in anything audio, yet like the other trolls in cable threads knows everything.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Pretty easy to come back if no one else would know which cable is what and say that the person got it wrong. Oh sorry B was really the one that was burned in, oh nope you chose B sorry A. See how easy it is?

    Ugh, this isn't that complicated:

    First off randomly pick the labeling order (iu1/iu2/nu1/nu2) from a hat and then I put into a hat 4 labels (a/b/c/d). I pull a label and wrap a the 1st cable, pull the 2nd, and wrap according to random order (3rd and 4th...)

    A simple chart is recorded. This along with $100 goes to an escrow person. Basically I would send them an encrypted zip file that they can open with my provided password after the results by the other participant are recorded. The escrow person holds the key, it is out of my custody(so I can't change which cable is which) we know by the email delivery information that they had the chart in their custody prior to cables being shipped and the password guarantees the chart only being opened after (so no one can peek and cheat the test).
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    All this because a member of our spectacular, world renowned forum, posted that he heard a difference in his burned in cables and you felt threatened enough to issue a "challenge" to the collective forum. Really?:p

    No. Actually I could use $100.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    You have already said you didn't hear an audible difference between your used and unused Belden cables. That is proof enough for us. Why are you on the Internet begging to pay Polk forum members to test whether they can hear a difference in your homemade $14 per 12 foot pair (retail) speaker cables?

    1. It's a bet. Each party ponies up $100. Why would I give you a red cent?

    2. Electrons don't know the cost of a cable $14 or other wise. They have zero concept of currency

    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    1. Are you postulating that because you didn't hear a difference in your cables after a set number of hours that the original poster couldn't have heard a difference in his?

    I'm postulating you can't.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    2. Anyone has a 50% chance of winning your challenge. Assuming they pick the correct cable, what does that really prove? It might only prove that they are a lucky guesser.

    I believe it's more like 25% since you have to get two right. I like my odds.

    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    3. Why does your test subject have to be a member of our spectacular audio forum? If you set up appropriate, verifiable and repeatable controls and supervision, why not do the test locally and then report your results here or elsewhere?

    Because victory is that much sweeter if it's one of the legacy members here.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    4. Why is it so difficult to grasp that the members of this forum just might not be interested in doing any sort of test with $14 homemade speaker cables.

    Because I figure they would like to take $100 off of one the most loathed members here and run me out on a rail saying Na Na Na Na Na. It would be the usual group's crowning achievement.

    Oh, I will never post at Polk Audio again if they get it right (Just dawned on me I win either way)


    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Great. Since you have such eager anticipation, I'm sure you will be pleased to be informed that the paper is available for download now from the JOSS website!

    I look forward to reading it.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,244
    edited October 2010
    I will do the cable test on one condition you send them at your cost. You donate the $100 to George for the kids, and after I do the test I get to karma them off.

    If your so much about being here and being a part of it you will contribute to the forum for a change..

    Well what do you say??

    Pony up or go home. Show what kind of man you really are..
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  • ecod123
    ecod123 Posts: 379
    edited October 2010
    Holy Toledo, I posted on the 1st page, went away for a day and this thread has ballooned to 5 pages with seemingly no end in sight.

    I am sure we can all amicably agree to disagree. Peace.:D
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    No. Actually I could use $100.

    Really? I thought a baller like you would sneeze at a paltry hunnerd bucks.:p:
    jinjuku wrote: »
    My retainer is $450 for simply showing up at a consulting session (helps weed out the non-serious customers).
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    4. Why is it so difficult to grasp that the members of this forum just might not be interested in doing any sort of test with $14 homemade speaker cables.
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Because I figure they would like to take $100 off of one the most loathed members here and run me out on a rail saying Na Na Na Na Na. It would be the usual group's crowning achievement.

    Oh, I will never post at Polk Audio again if they get it right (Just dawned on me I win either way)

    Well, after a full day of begging forum members to participate in your cable burn in trial, it must have dawned on you by now that you are not as important in the minds of our forum members, and particularly the "usual group", as your ego mislead you to believe. Certainly, you are entertaining in a buffoonish, cartoonish sort of way. Important...uhhhhh no.

    You really think running you off is some sort of crowning achievement? Pitiful. An example of a crowning achievement on this forum is installing that last piece of synergistic audio gear that catapults the listener into a Nirvanic state of audiophillic bliss.

    With regard to the "enticing" prospect of you never posting again on CP, I really don't think it matters to most of the membership. Most people know how to use the ignore feature.

    Thank you for addressing most of my questions in post #134. I noticed that you missed one. A simple yes or no will suffice.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Are you withdrawing your previous implication that the majority of AES members are ABX believers?
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    I will do the cable test on one condition you send them at your cost. You donate the $100 to George for the kids, and after I do the test I get to karma them off.

    If your so much about being here and being a part of it you will contribute to the forum for a change..

    Well what do you say??

    Pony up or go home. Show what kind of man you really are..

    Remember it was a bet with the losing party giving up $100 to the winner. So losing party give $100 to charity and all I am out is some cables and shipping. You karma them off. You want them with the locking nanners or just the tinned ends?

    Who do we want to use for the escrow of email? I won't budge on that. I would nominate CokewithVanilla or XCapri. I have one other suggestion that I know would be acceptable to all but I will have to PM them first. Let me know if either of my first two would be acceptable.

    The other terms as previously stipulated before: Your results would be reported within a week of receipt of cables. You have to pick the two burned in cables.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Really? I thought a baller like you would sneeze at a paltry hunnerd bucks.:p:

    Well, after a full day of begging forum members to participate in your cable burn in trial, it must have dawned on you by now that you are not as important in the minds of our forum members, and particularly the "usual group", as your ego mislead you to believe. Certainly, you are entertaining in a buffoonish, cartoonish sort of way. Important...uhhhhh no.

    You spoke to soon ;) Even though I do well for myself I haven't lost sight of the worth of a dollar.

    That's ok Toolforlife is manning up for you.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    You really think running you off is some sort of crowning achievement?

    For some people: YES.

    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    With regard to the "enticing" prospect of you never posting again on CP, I really don't think it matters to most of the membership. Most people know how to use the ignore feature.

    Good for them.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Thank you for addressing most of my questions in post #134. I noticed that you missed one. A simple yes or no will suffice.

    Which has zero to do with what I was talking about. You had your shot. Now sit on the sidelines like you have chosen to do and let Toolforlife show you how to man up.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Thank you for addressing most of my questions in post #134. I noticed that you missed one. A simple yes or no will suffice.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Are you withdrawing your previous implication that the majority of AES members are ABX believers?
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Which has zero to do with what I was talking about. You had your shot. Now sit on the sidelines like you have chosen to do and let Toolforlife show you how to man up.

    OK. I'll take that as a yes.

    How do you propose to certify that you are actually sending cables with the specified amount of burn in? Is TFLF just supposed to take your word for it?
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,244
    edited October 2010
    Yeah I'm going to trust the 3 people whom I dislike the most on this forum???

    HAHAHA!!! I don't think so. I told you what my conditions were to do the testing. Pony up or go home..

    I think you 3 have tested each others cables a few times.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited October 2010
    Why do people argue with idiots?
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    Because it's fun.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2010
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    I think you 3 have tested each others cables a few times.
    :eek::eek::eek::eek:
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    I have noticed, especially on this forum, that people cannot voice contrary opinions and engage in a friendly argument. By the end of it, either one or both people are attacking the individual and someone ends up disliking the other person indefinitely.

    It amazes me that people put so much emotion into an argument. What is so hard about arguing without taking things personal?
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    So that's who the other 2 dudes were in juju's movie. :rolleyes:

    the sad thing is, comments like this are coming from the side of people who think they are level headed.
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Who do we want to use for the escrow of email? I won't budge on that. I would nominate CokewithVanilla or XCapri. I have one other suggestion that I know would be acceptable to all but I will have to PM them first. Let me know if either of my first two would be acceptable.

    Why not use an IMPARTIAL person for escrow?? Why would Larry trust CokewithVanilla or XCapri over you? They seem to have as biased a view as you.

    Greg
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    headrott wrote: »
    Why not use an IMPARTIAL person for escrow?? Why would Larry trust CokewithVanilla or XCapri over you? They seem to have as biased a view as you.

    Greg

    I was under the impression that I was impartial. Skeptical, sure, but impartial all the same.
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