cable break in believer

steveinaz

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Must be similar to the fear "believers" have of blind listening. Still not a shred of evidence after all these years, just more anecdotal claims.

Good entertainment though.

Since "believers" actually experiment with different cables, I'd have to say that those who don't believe are making the anecdotal claims, no?

As someone else stated above, I WISH I couldn't hear a difference, it would save me lots of money and trial & error.

steveinaz

jaxwired wrote: »

I'm definately not a nay sayer, but I do take issue with people that act like placebo effect has no impact. In the believer camp, there are a lot of people that seem to think their ability to assess sound quality differences are infallable. They are wrong and usually poorer for it.

The placebo effect can hold water if the user wants to convince themself of improvement. How do you address cases where a "supposed" better cable fails to impress? I had such an experience with Audioquest Diamondback. I bought 2 sets to replace my Audioquest Copperhead (far cheaper). I preferred the ("lesser") Copperhead and returned the Diamondback.

I'm not saying placebo doesn't play a part--surely it does--but not with everyone. This is when knowing what to listen for pays off.

steveinaz

I can't remember if it was William or JohnK, but a couple years ago I made the offer of sending a box full of brand new .99 cent RCA IC's, with the agreement they would replace their current IC's with them--ya know, cause wire is wire right?--Odd, no one wanted a piece of that action.

Does that not speak volumes?

Hi-Fi is a hobby. People get into hobbies at different levels. Some want a good resepectable system without hasseling with the hype; some want to squeeze every inch of performance out of their system. It's no different from car enthusiasts; one guy just wants a Corvette---another wants to tear the vette down to the bone and tweak, fine tune it to the max.

You don't think it matters, fine. Move along. Consider yourself lucky--you just saved a bunch of money. But, lets be honest, unless you are running your equipment on the .99 cent IC's that came with it, you obviously believe that differences exist on some level. I find it silly how insecure non-believers get about this topic--like they have to justify their "thriftyness" in choices. It's OK, we don't care if you choose to use inexpensive cables---really.

jaxwired

steveinaz wrote: »

The placebo effect can hold water if the user wants to convince themself of improvement. How do you address cases where a "supposed" better cable fails to impress? I had such an experience with Audioquest Diamondback. I bought 2 sets to replace my Audioquest Copperhead (far cheaper). I preferred the ("lesser") Copperhead and returned the Diamondback.

I'm not saying placebo doesn't play a part--surely it does--but not with everyone. This is when knowing what to listen for pays off.

It's a messy minefield for sure. There's no easy answer. I do believe in cable differences. However, I realize my ability to recogonize tiny nuances in sound quality is fallable and imprecise so I'm reluctant to spend large coin on cable. I don't trust myself not to be fooled. I think anyone can be fooled.

Along with listening assessment, I try and add common sense, and mass consensus to the mix when deciding on expensive audio products.

Toolfan66

jaxwired wrote: »

Well, it's a shame you can't tell the difference between my post and his. Odd really. My post was on subject, made a point, and contained no personal attack against anyway (no specific names). F1's post had nothing to say on the topic, and was only a personal and specific attack on other members. Very different to the unbiased clear thinking person...

Well you attacked him as well. My point is how many times does Jesse (F1) need to post his point about cables, Since I have been here he has stated his point many times about this subject as well as others, myself included.
The differenece between me and many of the non belivers is I have taken the time to try many cables and you can hear the difference. well I can anyways. and if one cannot hear the difference then maybe this just is not a hobby for them, plug and play is good enough.

If you can tune a car with better parts including cables and hear and feel the difference, Then you can tune a system with better gear including cables and feel and hear the difference.;)

Step up your game spend some money or shut up is my motto..:D

Or just be happy that your not as dumb as some of us for spending money on Good Cables..:eek:

reeltrouble1

cables matter. that is all.

RT1

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

I can't remember if it was William or JohnK, but a couple years ago I made the offer of sending a box full of brand new .99 cent RCA IC's, with the agreement they would replace their current IC's with them--ya know, cause wire is wire right?--Odd, no one wanted a piece of that action.

Does that not speak volumes?

Hi-Fi is a hobby. People get into hobbies at different levels. Some want a good resepectable system without hasseling with the hype; some want to squeeze every inch of performance out of their system. It's no different from car enthusiasts; one guy just wants a Corvette---another wants to tear the vette down to the bone and tweak, fine tune it to the max.

You don't think it matters, fine. Move along. Consider yourself lucky--you just saved a bunch of money. But, lets be honest, unless you are running your equipment on the .99 cent IC's that came with it, you obviously believe that differences exist on some level. I find it silly how insecure non-believers get about this topic--like they have to justify their "thriftyness" in choices. It's OK, we don't care if you choose to use inexpensive cables---really.

Steve, there were also many cable naysayers like Jinjuku and WilliamM2, etc that were offered to participate in the power cable swap program for the cost of one-way shipping to the next person in line, but they declined for no good reason. It's all a bunch of pot stirring and hot air from these types. You know the type, who likes to see their name in lights so to speak. Their opinions are based on nothing and in turn mean nothing.

H9

ohskigod

WilliamM2 wrote: »

If that's the case, why don't you shut up?



.

way to brink good discourse to the table. perhaps what is alluding you is the fact that proving something to you is not terribly important. for me (and most here) what there rig does for the owner / listener is all that matters. we relay our experiences here for others to absorb. I certainly don't agree with everyone's opinion and have different experiences on alot of topics, i dont get hostile about it.

Also notice we usually don't ban people for having different opinions that discuss them openly, like some other forums I can mention.

thinking that proving a point to you is of utmost importance is a touch of arrogance on your part.


my .02 on the topic? I have had cables that seem to get better with age, and some that don't. why? who the eff cares. google "end result oriented" and embrace the philosophy

WilliamM2

steveinaz wrote: »

Since "believers" actually experiment with different cables, I'd have to say that those who don't believe are making the anecdotal claims, no?

I have experimented with different cables, so your assumption is wrong.

I would say "believers" have never actually done a proper experiment with cables, and their results have all the credibility of palm reading and future telling.

steveinaz

jaxwired wrote: »

It's a messy minefield for sure. There's no easy answer. I do believe in cable differences. However, I realize my ability to recogonize tiny nuances in sound quality is fallable and imprecise so I'm reluctant to spend large coin on cable. I don't trust myself not to be fooled. I think anyone can be fooled.

Along with listening assessment, I try and add common sense, and mass consensus to the mix when deciding on expensive audio products.

Absolutely, I don't want to be a victim of "hype" either. I simply won't spend more than I have on IC's (Kimber Hero) for 2 reasons; 1-I know how subtle the changes become above this level. 2-There's a point where the subtlety doesn't justify the cost.

This brings up another point. All audio cables are perfectly capable of delivering the necessary frequency extremes with ease. From the .99 cent cheapie, to the $6,800 silver super-duper that has been slathered in rare African elephant ****, then cryogenically treated; it isn't a matter of 1 cable being "better" than another cable, it's about the tonal differences of cables that will either synergize better with your equipment, or they won't. Think of them as super-fine tone controls.

WilliamM2

ohskigod wrote: »

way to brink good discourse to the table.

Of course you failed to notice that I was responding to a post where he told me to "shut up". Not suprising at all.

steveinaz

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I have experimented with different cables, so your assumption is wrong.

I would say "believers" have never actually done a proper experiment with cables, and their results have all the credibility of palm reading and future telling.

William, if I like what I hear with cable "b" why would I need to perform scientific experiments to back up what I've already experienced? Why would I bother? I'm just not getting your point.

When you make a purchase (be it anything) that you're really satisfied with, do you later dissect your decision? See if the "science" supports the real world effects?

When Stereophile did their "Transport Jitter" article years ago, they stumbled on an interesting thing. Some digital cables measured far less jitter (note the word MEASURED) when orientated in a certain direction. It was easily repeatable and measureable on the jitter analyzer. They couldn't explain why--but a pattern had formed that the better the quality of the cable, the less orientation made a difference in jitter levels, and the lower the jitter in general.

It appears Science demonstrated that wire is not just wire in that instance.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I have experimented with different cables, so your assumption is wrong.

I would say "believers" have never actually done a proper experiment with cables, and their results have all the credibility of palm reading and future telling.

So I eat Vanilla ice cream and it tastes like ice cream should, cold, creamy, sugary, etc.

I eat chocolate ice cream, it has all the same properties of Vanilla ice cream except it tastes better to me.

So with your reasoning I should do an experiment to reinforce which one I prefer??? .

That seems really stupid. I prefer chocolate over vanilla and I don't need a bunch of experiments to determine that.

Same with cables, I prefer MIT's over anything I've heard. Pretty simple

H9

steveinaz

BINGO Brock, you said it better than me.

Ricardo

Bllah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah......

You guys never get tired of this?

Just enjoy the music, with MIT, Monoprice, or wireless. If you like what you have, who cares what the next one has????

BTW, I have MIT, and laughed my **** while experiencing the break in process. What an awesome experience. But I could care less what others have or if they believe or not on the differences between cables and if they break in or not.

ohskigod

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I would say "believers" have never actually done a proper experiment with cables, and their results have all the credibility of palm reading and future telling.

so your saying, in a factual sense, that no one who has heard a difference in cable has ever, EVER, done a proper experiment? ever? (forget the fact that there ears telling them it sounds better on a consistent basis is not enough of an experiment, hilarious in and of itself)

really?

ok man, sure, whatever you say...lol

heiney9

ohskigod wrote: »

so your saying, in a factual sense, that no one who has heard a difference in cable has ever, EVER, done a proper experiment? ever? (forget the fact that there ears telling them it sounds better on a consistent basis is not enough of an experiment, hilarious in and of itself)

really?

ok man, sure, whatever you say...lol

Don't forget Lou, he's compared cables and apparently is the only one who knows how to do a valid experiment. I mean.........he comes off as the one and only authority on cable experiments. :rolleyes:

H9

WilliamM2

ohskigod wrote: »

so your saying, in a factual sense, that no one who has heard a difference in cable has ever, EVER, done a proper experiment? ever? (forget the fact that there ears telling them it sounds better on a consistent basis is not enough of an experiment, hilarious in and of itself)

really?

ok man, sure, whatever you say...lol

Are you saying that they have done them correctly? Any info about it you could share with us?

ok man, sure, whatever you say...lol

jinjuku

heiney9 wrote: »

Don't forget Lou, he's compared cables and apparently is the only one who knows how to do a valid experiment. I mean.........he comes off as the one and only authority on cable experiments. :rolleyes:

H9

I have $100 and four cables. Two never used, two with hundreds of hours on them.

Use your "authority on cable experiments" any way you choose. You will obviously be $100 richer and have bragging rights. Tell us which are broken in and which are not.

steveinaz

jinjuku wrote: »

I have $100 and four cables. Two never used, two with hundreds of hours on them.

Use your "authority on cable experiments" any way you choose. You will obviously be $100 richer and have bragging rights. Tell us which are broken in and which are not.

I see you use Belden/Canare combo IC's....pretty respectable choices for a "wire is wire" guy, dontcha think? I'm ready to ship these .99 cent IC's to you, anytime you're ready.

Many are "booing" aftermarket cables, yet no one is using the standard nickle plated/plastic IC's...I'm confused. Are you saying we're "OK" (credible) as long as we don't spend more than you on cables? So at what price point do I move from "responsible consumer" to "audiophile idiot?" Is there a board that makes this determination?

Do you guys even hear yourselves? Sheesh.

heiney9

jinjuku wrote: »

I have $100 and four cables. Two never used, two with hundreds of hours on them.

Use your "authority on cable experiments" any way you choose. You will obviously be $100 richer and have bragging rights. Tell us which are broken in and which are not.

You and others want ME (or someone else) to prove to YOU cables matter to us, which then will convince you based on what WE heard. That is some twisted logic and psychology. Who the 'eff cares? Cables matter to me and it's not my responsibility to jump throught YOUR hoops to prove it to someone other than myself.

Newsflash: Not all cables make a difference in all systems to all peoples ears in all situations, nor do some even give a rats **** about this topic.

That's all fine and dandy.

Rock on, enjoy your system however, wherever you want. I share my opinions based on experiences and encourage others to try cables, etc and have very little tolerance for those who say they don;t matter when they have never even tried to hear if they matter.

H9

fishbones

My theory....I love beautiful music. I want my system to take me 'there'. I don't want to hinder my system's capabilities. Because of this, I always keep an open mind. I find that this allows my system to perform it's best if I let it do what it needs to do.

My 2 cents...

BlueFox

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I have experimented with different cables, so your assumption is wrong.

Means nothing. What were the cables? What equipment was used? Is your hearing adequate?

While it is possible to use different cables and hear no differences, all that means is that for that particular setup, with those particular cables, for that particular person, no differences were noted. Any interpolation of those results beyond that scenario is irrelevant and immaterial.

jinjuku

steveinaz wrote: »

I see you use Belden/Canare combo IC's....pretty respectable choices for a "wire is wire" guy, dontcha think? I'm ready to ship these .99 cent IC's to you, anytime your ready.

Ah the usual: Now the cables aren't 'High End'.

The physics of burning in a cable are obviously reserved for Kimber/AQ/MIT/Opus:rolleyes:

You guys can sure talk...

steveinaz

I don't know what "high-end" means, but I have big respect (and use) Belden 1694A. It just has the double-benefit of being relatively inexpensive too. Placebo must have eluded me on that choice.

jinjuku

heiney9 wrote: »

You and others want ME (or someone else) to prove to YOU cables matter to us, which then will convince you based on what WE heard. That is some twisted logic and psychology. Who the 'eff cares? Cables matter to me and it's not my responsibility to jump throught YOUR hoops to prove it to someone other than myself.

Newsflash: Not all cables make a difference in all systems to all peoples ears in all situations, nor do some even give a rats **** about this topic.

That's all fine and dandy.

H9

LOL! Oh let the excuses roll. Keep back peddling guys. Soon as someone puts up some cash and calls you on it...

BTW I PM'd William2 before this got rolling with all the excuses you were going to use before I posted. Saw it all a mile away.

ohskigod

jinjuku wrote: »

Ah the usual: Now the cables aren't 'High End'.

The physics of burning in a cable are obviously reserved for Kimber/AQ/MIT/Opus:rolleyes:

You guys can sure talk...

I think you missed his point completely, his point was that the wire you are using seems to be pretty respectable wire, and the question is, why do so if you know for certain cable makes no difference, hence his "99 cent" cable reference.

DarqueKnight

jinjuku wrote: »

Name your price DK. N will go up with price. That is out of N two cables will be 'broken' in.

You need to calm down.

Did you not see the part where I told you I WAS NOT interested in reviewing the Belden cable, but I would be glad to review a high performance cable, and that I would pay shipping both ways? You should be able to tell from my writings that I am primarily interested in well engineered, low-noise cable designs. I would not expect the 58 cents per foot Belden 5000 to meet this criteria, although I am sure it is excellent for the applications it is designed for.

jinjuku wrote: »

Already have, couldn't tell a from b.

Ok. Well there you go. Rather than waiving your $100 and 58 cents per foot Belden cable in our faces, why don't you submit a detailed review of your findings?

jinjuku wrote: »

From they way you were talking it would be the easiest $100 you made plus the added bonus of publicly proving the objectivist wrong.

I get substantially more than $100 just for showing up, just for walking through the door, at a consultative session. Thanks anyway.

My article on the historical overview of stereophonic blind testing unequivocally demonstrated that the objectivists have been proving themselves wrong for decades with their testing methodology that says everything sounds alike. It seems to be the objectivists who have something to prove as they are the ones always demanding proof. Furthermore, as my article on the history of subjective audio evaluation demonstrated, the objectivists promote a testing methodology that was outright rejected by the inventor and other seminal researchers in the development of stereophonic home audio systems. Obviously, the objectivists "belive" that they know more about the testing of stereo systems than the people who invented it!:D

I get invited to participate in reviews and beta trials all the time. Sometimes I accept and sometimes I do not. I have been offered reviewer positions at several audio publications. I politely declined each one. Accepting a reviewer position would mean that I would spend a lot of time listening to gear that I have no interest in. I just don't have the time to devote to that right now.

Toolfan66

jinjuku wrote: »

Ah the usual: Now the cables aren't 'High End'.

The physics of burning in a cable are obviously reserved for Kimber/AQ/MIT/Opus:rolleyes:

You guys can sure talk...

Not True,, But the gear you run with cables is just as important..

Step up your game or stay on the sidelines and serve water to the guys that play harder..:D

ohskigod

jinjuku wrote: »

LOL! Oh let the excuses roll. Keep back peddling guys. Soon as someone puts up some cash and calls you on it...

.

correct me if I am wrong, but isnt the cash scnerario you presented a 50/50 shot anyway? guess the right wire out of the 2 and I will give you a 100 bucks....makes little sense.

no one is taking you on it because while they will defend there argumanet and position, no one cares that much to prove it to you. dude, buy whatever cable you want. it's a stereo dude, all in all not the most important thing in the planet, just something to be enjoyed the way we want to........not prove to others how it should be enjoyed.

I genuinly hope you can understand that point someday