Building a pair of Polk Monitor 10's

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  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,668
    I just looked at your crossovers again. I believe you may have the Caps wired to the wrong points. It appears the 12uf below the shunt inductor, is connected where the 34uf is supposed to be. The 34uf is connected on one side where the 12uf should be, and the other side is connected to the wrong point as well.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
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    Den:
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  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    F1nut wrote: »
    Loose connector.
    Fuse! Simple... This is the speaker with the 6510 and 6503 drivers, probably not a good idea. Waiting for new drivers from polk.

    But now I'm reviewing my crossovers per westmassguy ' s discovery. Let me map it out again. I was pretty clear on the wiring, had an original crossover sitting next to me during prefitting.

    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    By the way, long fight with the poly fill. I'm ordering the correct fill. You don't do this right, it will sound bad... should have listened... I had way too much fill behind the drivers. I'll update once I get it right.
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    I just looked at your crossovers again. I believe you may have the Caps wired to the wrong points. It appears the 12uf below the shunt inductor, is connected where the 34uf is supposed to be. The 34uf is connected on one side where the 12uf should be, and the other side is connected to the wrong point as well.
    They are wired correctly. One thing that I didn't mention during the build of my crossovers. I made new holes in the circuit board to improve the fit. So if you are looking at the location of where I connected the caps, they are not original. Some of the locations are relocated but still electrically correct. Call it artistic license...
    Will I am
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,142
    Get rid of the fuses, they aren't necessary unless you are a high school kid trying to listen to Metallica at high volumes.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Get rid of the fuses, they aren't necessary unless you are a high school kid trying to listen to Metallica at high volumes.

    H9

    I must be a High School kid, I'm listening to Boston and yes I have cranked it a few times. "Let's see what these babies can do" has been my motto. Granted a whole new world of enjoyment has opened up with these speakers. I hear things in my music I never heard before, from classical to rock. I have even scanned the fm band and listen to music I don't particularly favor and it sounds good. I'm criticizing the way some songs are mixed and quality of a recording.
    I can hear how thick the classical guitar players calis is on his thumb, if the vocalists smokes, the rim shots keeping beat in the background.

    So yes, I'm a kid with Dads new car, "let's see what these babies can do". Once I get control of my lead foot, I'll consider removing the fuse... until then it is my only level of defense against my ignorance.

    Post edited by willwilly on
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    So it is the weekend. Let me tell you where I am in this build.
    It has been a long road but it is coming together. I have the speakers assembled, I'm running the on a Denon AVR-5700, plenty of power, and a 10 band equalizer because I like to be in control.
    I have been playing my old stand by's and even music I don't particularly like.

    fv8827ztax00.jpg

    Ignore the DVD player, just some garage junk to get a cd feed.

    At first I was not impressed. I have read that there is a "burn in" period for the new caps and I have found this to be very true. The more I play them the better they sound...
    A wonderful forum member has been following the thread. Deucekazoo has made me a template to try out to recess the tweeter.
    This is a godsend to keep my build professional. I'll post how this goes.

    3nsm3edybz60.jpg

    As I have posted previously, I'm trying to get the sound dampening correct, have blown my first fuse. F1nut was correct, the fuse holder has a short and may have contributed to the issue. I'm getting closer to pulling out the whole fuse train but not yet.

    These speakers are incredible. I am comparing to my 5's and 4's on my garage system and there is no comparison to sound quality and clarity. I'm not ready to start using terms like imaging, but I'm sure that is what I am hearing.

    So far, Wow, this is better than what I expected.

    More to come.
    Will I am
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,142
    With the rig you're running...........leave the fuse, you're going to need it. I see lots of distortion in your future.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 9,104
    You should get a subwoofer instead of jacking the bass up to max on TWO EQs. Constructive criticism, don't take offense.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    Nightfall wrote: »
    You should get a subwoofer instead of jacking the bass up to max on TWO EQs. Constructive criticism, don't take offense.
    Yup, my thoughts exactly. I have a polk sub sitting on my bench that I haven'connected yet. Then I can back off a on the eq. I like bass...
    The equalizer is mostly for determine the limits and to understand what I like...
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    heiney9 wrote: »
    With the rig you're running...........leave the fuse, you're going to need it. I see lots of distortion in your future.

    H9

    Is there such a thing as a good equalizer? This one is pretty bad...

    Will I am
  • mopar paulmopar paul Posts: 279
    edited April 2016

    H9[/quote]

    Is there such a thing as a good equalizer? This one is pretty bad...

    [/quote]

    Not really. Once you hear music the way it was meant to be, it will grow on you and you won't ever want an equalizer.
    Some music will sound lifeless at first, but a good recording will really shine.

    As a cabinet builder and fabricator myself, I love your workmanship. Those are very nice.

    Don't blow up your nice work by cranking them with an underpowered receiver. Low power kills speakers faster than high, good quality power.

    Keep asking questions, lots of knowledge here.


  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,142
    willwilly wrote: »
    heiney9 wrote: »
    With the rig you're running...........leave the fuse, you're going to need it. I see lots of distortion in your future.

    H9

    Is there such a thing as a good equalizer? This one is pretty bad...

    No, not that I've ever encountered. Those are "pretty bad", yes indeed.

    Actually it's a shame to feed those beautiful speakers what you're feeding them. They deserver much better, otherwise what's the point?

    Just my .02c.

    H9

    P.s. Love the cabinet work.

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    Ya, I'm not sure what your issues are with the rig, Equalizers certainly have their place. Quality of equalizer certainly is an issue here but maintaining the slides makes this one usable. I turn off the equalizer and find my tunes flat and lifeless. As for the receiver, it is a respectable mid line HT unit that has more output than the M10's specify.
    I have had an equalizer on every system. Some better than others. Again maintenace is key.

    Also, every system is different, not just in specs but age, condition... Every room is different and most importantly, every ear is different.

    tnwbw0bzkm89.jpg


    I'm using only one tool to quantify and qualify this project, my ears. Yes, these speakers are awesome and a refined copy of a good speaker. And they make my tunes worth listening to all over again. I don't like any of the factory pre sets and raw, just doesn't do it, sure, I can eat a frozen pizza like the factory made it, or you throw on some mushrooms, onions and peppers on it and make a decent meal. Feel the base, make the guitar scream, liven the vocals... compensate for shooting skeet without ear plugs...

    I did add my woofer to the testing and followed the advise of an article I reread, start at 0 on your equalizer and decrease what you don't like and increase what like. Could say a lot about my natural hearing loss...

    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    Quite frankly, one thing I am starting to admit, these are going to be even better...

    cu9olz6a7hn4.jpg
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    mopar paul wrote: »
    Once you hear music the way it was meant to be, it will grow on you and you won't ever want an equalizer.

    There is truth in this. I am gravitating back to 0 settings more and more and suspect I will at some point abandon the equalizer with these Monitors.

    Will I am
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,142
    Take it completely out of the circuit. Even hooked up with no gain, it still adds noise.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,142
    Maintenance has NOTHING to do with making a eq sound better. It's a noise and distortion machine, that's all.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • KennethSwaugerKennethSwauger Moderator Posts: 7,081
    "They thought we were too loud, but shoot, I had four army blankets folded over my amp, and the volume level was on 2. I'm used to playin' on 10!" S.R.V.
  • notifiednotified Posts: 175
    In my experience a eq in use with a cheap system will make it sound more dynamic [if that's the word I'm looking for] However they do add alot of noise.This can be evidenced by listening in bypass mode and then taking it out of system, you can hear just how muffled it made the signal.When using one diligence to the volume should be observed as boosting the highs at higher volumes can easily blow a tweeter.
    My advise for the op would be to look at pawn shops or classified ads for a integrated,or receiver amp. A decent name brand from the 80's can usually be found for between 50-100 [or even less] And being designed for music use only will out perform the lower to mid market ht amps in terms of musical sound quality,and therefore can provide for a cheap substitute until something of higher performance can be obtained
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,617
    Have fun with what you are doing!

    I see some good advice, mixed in with a lot of tired generalizations, and unless they are sitting in your garage listening with you, very doubtful to even guess as to what you are hearing there.
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  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    Oh kay, let's get back to the build.

    Received my new router bit and eager to try deucekazoo's templet.

    I'm back and forth on the champfer detail on the front edge, which is why I haven't made the grills. M10's have the champfer and the grills are fitted to the champfer.

    I was considering a different shape for the grill but really need to see the original concept through...

    There is a difference in running one speaker with a MW6510 next to the original, 6503. Resistance is the same but it seems brighter. Still plan on replacing once I get new 6503's from Polk.
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185

    Whoa! Interesting but unobtainable.
    I would love to hear what a $30,000 system gets you.
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    K_M wrote: »
    Have fun with what you are doing!

    I see some good advice, mixed in with a lot of tired generalizations, and unless they are sitting in your garage listening with you, very doubtful to even guess as to what you are hearing there.

    Here, Here! I have had a blast with my first speaker build. And folks on here have been great help making these a success.

    Will I am
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 44,780
    I see some good advice, mixed in with a lot of tired generalizations, and unless they are sitting in your garage listening with you, very doubtful to even guess as to what you are hearing there.

    Doubtful for you maybe. Don't speak for the rest of us.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pkquatpkquat Posts: 716
    I love the cabinets. Awesome work. I'm jealous. I wish I had the workshop and the skills as well. Are you building Monitor 7's next? Will it be a new thread? If you are building Monitor 7's I'd love to see them in a mahogany, burl, or an exotic veneer, not that I have any say. Compared to the 10's I would say the 7's are more of an indoor critical listening speaker. There will be less bass thump, but the bass will be there with a decent amp, and you may hear things you never heard before in what you listen too.

    2cents on the equalizer and receiver imo. Cranking Metallica in the garage for a concert like experience with sound bouncing everywhere, the eq is fine, although a sub does wonders for concert like bass. Good equalizers are very expensive, often more of a professional type, and as mentioned have there place. The cheap ones imo have their place too. If you want that live concert sound and are plain rocking out, go for it. I used an eq for my little Monitor 4A's that have no bass compared to 10's when I wanted to jam, or for better Home Theater bass on a budget when I didn't have a sub. I would rather have had a sub, but that is a longer story. As people have mentioned the eq adds noise, distortion, and reduces the stereo imaging.

    Similarly, a decent higher current amp does wonders, even on smaller speakers. Years ago when I got my Hafler DH-220 amp I heard things I never heard before compared to my generic receiver. Even the bass was better with the little Monitor 4A's. My receiver today is much better, but the bass still has more impact and detail with the separate amp. At average or even loud listening levels the bass may not seem louder, volume wise, but I think you will find, like many people, it is more prominent and has more presence and impact.

  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    7's are next. Boxes are made just like these.
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    w1kur9q4fi64.jpg
    Still testing, now comparing to the rest of my collection. Interesting results.

    Also quantifying the use of an equalizer.

    zg8qyexocje7.jpg


    Following logical comparisons. Trying my music with with the equalizer, with the equalizer but disabling the slide adjustments, then switching from neutral equalizer, to straight feed from the receiver
    So going from neutral sound through the equalizer to balanced sound, that's a no brainer... Going from neutral sound through the equalizer, to no equalizer, there is a diiference. Very slight, but a difference.

    I conducted my test by having the equalizer on tape monitor, equalizer in bypass, and I switch tape monitor, on and off, not looking to see which is which. I performed this test many times, different music, even with other people not telling them what I'm testing, simply "better, worst" switching back and forth.

    Results, 4 times out of 5 I pick the monitor off as the better sound. Most other people can't tell the difference.

    Now this is a simple test using my ear and nothing else. Yes there is a difference, but between having an equalizer or not is a moot point to me. The equalizer is a good tool for enjoying my music,

    ufxphmgw09d2.jpg

    This is the next thing I'm trying. One suggested buying an intigrated receiver. I found this unit and going to compare with the Denon HT.
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    pkquat wrote: »

    2cents on the equalizer and receiver imo. Cranking Metallica in the garage for a concert like experience with sound bouncing everywhere, the eq is fine, although a sub does wonders for concert like bass. Good equalizers are very expensive, often more of a professional type, and as mentioned have there place. The cheap ones imo have their place too. If you want that live concert sound and are plain rocking out, go for it. I used an eq for my little Monitor 4A's that have no bass compared to 10's when I wanted to jam, or for better Home Theater bass on a budget when I didn't have a sub. I would rather have had a sub, but that is a longer story. As people have mentioned the eq adds noise, distortion, and reduces the stereo imaging.

    Yes, I agree, Equalizers have a place. Still staying in the lower end of the spectrum with hardware, mostly vintage, I believe quality of the recording, good speakers and an equalizer for me gets 90% to ultimate sound quality. And we can all argue the percentage and "ultimate" But that last 10% is very expensive.

    I'm in it for the nastalgic fun, learning more about what I once enjoyed and $1000 with some skills can go a long way...
    Will I am
  • willwillywillwilly Posts: 185
    edited April 2016
    Or to contradict all that, 5.1 stereo, 10's main, 5jr's surround and a 4 as the center, polk sub woofer, verygood.
    Will I am
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