Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

BlueFox · March 2009

comfortablycurt wrote: »

...I guess I should quit upgrading my system.

ComfortablyNumb, have you ever bought anything? I think you have the record for posting "I am thinking of getting a <fill in the blank>."

I like these kinds of threads because once you filter out the useless posts (STFU, etc.) it is possible to learn something, if you take the time and effort.

As an engineer I can certainly appreciate from a theoretical perspective how the electrical characteristics of a cable can influence its sound. However, I really was not prepared for the amount of influence a cable can make.

I operated for the longest time with the belief that the bigger cable was better since the resistance was lower, and when I upgraded to 12 gauge hardware store bulk cable I was able to tell a difference in both the home theater and stereo. However, thanks to threads like this, I finally decided to break down, and try something different.

I purchased a set of MapleShade “Clearview Double Golden Helix Speaker Cables - Plus option”, and was completely blown away by the improvement over 12 gauge twisted copper. These things are solid wire, and must be 18 or 20 gauge, yet the sound is clearer, more precise, more open, seems to have a wider dynamic range, and frequency response. Of course, this is all subjective since I have no measuring equipment, but it does exist. It literally was like upgrading a major component in the system.

Obviously, at least to me, wire can make a difference. Unfortunately for me, this means I will need to spend more money in the future “researching” speaker cables, but at least I am happy for now.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/doublehelixspeakercable.php

F1nut · March 2009

I like these kinds of threads because once you filter out the useless posts (STFU, etc.) it is possible to learn something, if you take the time and effort.

I beg to differ. STFU posts are extremely valuable as evidenced by such comments as, "most informative post in this whole thread" and "Very well said.." Class over.

Jeb85 · March 2009

wow a thread that turns into a chat room for experts and everyone who wants to learn something learns nothing.... and as for me being to lazy to find information between the cables, the reason i asked was becuase i couldn't find anything that seemed relative to what i was looking for and was hoping for insight.
useless forum! in my eyes when its the same 10 peoples same advice on everything.
good work people be proud!

heiney9 · March 2009

Jeb85 wrote: »

wow a thread that turns into a chat room for experts and everyone who wants to learn something learns nothing.... and as for me being to lazy to find information between the cables, the reason i asked was becuase i couldn't find anything that seemed relative to what i was looking for and was hoping for insight.
useless forum! in my eyes when its the same 10 peoples same advice on everything.
good work people be proud!

Cables matter.......get off your a** and try some.

comfortablycurt · March 2009

BlueFox wrote: »

ComfortablyNumb, have you ever bought anything? I think you have the record for posting "I am thinking of getting a <fill in the blank>."

lol...Yes, I have. I actually just got a new pair of speakers yesterday. Some vintage Polk Mini Monitors that are pulling surround duty now. I also got a new AVR in October of last year...A pair of Monitor 7A's a couple months ago...I've purchased numerous IC's and speaker wire recently. I'll also be picking up a pair of RTi8's and a pair of RTi6's from another board member in about...(checks watch)...2-3 more weeks.

Yes...I have posted a lot of "I'm thinking about" posts recently...but that's because my works is seasonal. I don't really work much in the winter, so I was doing a lot of window shopping. Through out this spring/summer though, watch for my numerous new "check out what I just got" threads.;)

On another note...Cables suck. They're completely worthless. MIT's make excellent clothesline at best. Audioquest aren't even good enough to be used as clothesline. All the people on this board that have spent big money on cables, only spent that money because of how much they enjoy wasting money. The huge differences I noticed in my system after switching to AQ IC's were completely imaginary...not real.:rolleyes:

I finished re-wiring my system up with old coat hangers. I tried several different kinds...the brown plastic ones are by far the best. The sound is so clean, you can't even hear it. It's that good.:cool:

TECHNOKID · March 2009

Jeb85 wrote: »

wow a thread that turns into a chat room for experts and everyone who wants to learn something learns nothing.... and as for me being to lazy to find information between the cables, the reason i asked was becuase i couldn't find anything that seemed relative to what i was looking for and was hoping for insight.
useless forum! in my eyes when its the same 10 peoples same advice on everything.
good work people be proud!

Don't give up Jeb there are good people here willing to help... you only have to do like most of us do, discard the crappy responses and look for the very few positive responses. There are a few people that will actually provide you with some good insights (again, IE:Norm Apter)... just filter out the crap and take what's good and that's it. Just too bad moderation is limited on this forum!

heiney9 · March 2009

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Don't give up Jeb there are good people here willing to help... you only have to do like most of us do, discard the crappy responses and look for the very few positive responses. There are a few people that will actually provide you with some good insights (again, IE:Norm Apter)... just filter out the crap and take what's good and that's it. Just too bad moderation is limited on this forum!

see post 139. Short, direct, to the point and 100% true.

treitz3 · March 2009

Damn, where do these people come from? How many village idiots do we really need?

Jeb, you obviously haven't grasped what they are about yet. Try opening your mind and getting a set in your rig.

F1nut · March 2009

the reason i asked was becuase i couldn't find anything that seemed relative to what i was looking for and was hoping for insight.

I gave you good advice, so again.....you are missing the point, MIT cables are not about gauge. You think they look like 12 gauge. Hell, I have no idea what gauge they are, nor do I care as the gauge doesn't matter. The bottom line is how does a cable sound in your system. Nothing else matters.

Another good piece of advice. Ignore whatever C3PO says about this topic as he has no experience other than what he read on Wiki.

useless forum!

Nothing, I mean nothing could be farther from the truth. There is a vast wealth of knowledge here. The search function works well, I'd suggest you try it.

Jeb85 · March 2009

wow there is alot of crap to filter thanks TECHNOKID
but i do have to say that i never once said anything about cable not mattering and i also mentioned that i did hear the difference between cables, also as i said i don't have the budget for an expensive pair of speaker wires.
where do people like heiney9 and treitz3 get off assuming these things and posting completey useless post like this!

Jeb85 · March 2009

F1nut wrote: »

I gave you good advice, so again.....you are missing the point, MIT cables are not about gauge. You think they look like 12 gauge. Hell, I have no idea what gauge they are, nor do I care as the gauge doesn't matter. The bottom line is how does a cable sound in your system. Nothing else matters.

Another good piece of advice. Ignore whatever C3PO says about this topic as he has no experience other than what he read on Wiki.

Nothing, I mean nothing could be farther from the truth. There is a vast wealth of knowledge here. The search function works well, I'd suggest you try it.

sorry i do take in lots of good advice, i went a little far when i said forum but for some threads you have to read through 4 pages to get a basic answer. i am new to this stuff and want to learn just not with all the crap that some people put out there

comfortablycurt · March 2009

Anyone else for PIE?

Why has every thread on here this last week or so turned into a huge ****/whine fest? Is it because I haven't been posting so much lately? Maybe the forums falling out of balance?:p

cnh · March 2009

F1nut wrote: »

I beg to differ. STFU posts are extremely valuable as evidenced by such comments as, "most informative post in this whole thread" and "Very well said.." Class over.

This is a bit off topic but for those of us over 50 all this 'text speak' (festival of acronyms) often leaves us wondering what does that mean and rushing to google it. Where do you guys learn that stuff? So that it comes so easily.

As for wiring. I'm not going to touch that topic...tons, tons of debates. Yes they make a difference....but if I bought a 1000 dollar cable my wife would 'hang' me with it..and it wouldn't matter if it was truly the most perfect, the best out there. Because I'd be 'dead'. And I'm not completely kidding here?

Power to the WIRE!

cnh

daboyz · March 2009

jeb, Cables,amps pre's all have their own sound and it's up to you to get your listen on to see what YOU like. I agree, there can be some crap on a forum,it's the nature of the beast. Just don't get upset at the people who answer you,they actually do have your best interest at heart. If you're really that interested then wading through some crap is just what you have to do.

Jeb85 · March 2009

daboyz wrote: »

jeb, Cables,amps pre's all have their own sound and it's up to you to get your listen on to see what YOU like. I agree, there can be some crap on a forum,it's the nature of the beast. Just don't get upset at the people who answer you,they actually do have your best interest at heart. If you're really that interested then wading through some crap is just what you have to do.

I agree! But if i ask a question(then shortly afterword feel like they did something wrong) i think there is a problem, this is the first forum ive been a part of or really used(not sure whats right or wrong) but with comments like

Keiko wrote: »

Cables make no difference. You'd be wasting your money buying some expensive, exotic cables. Stick with lamp cord or Monster products.

I'm outa here.

whats the point... like wtf is that!

Jeb85 · March 2009

Keiko wrote: »

The basic answer is biased. Seriously Jeb, stick with the Monster Cable and lamp cords. In your case, you're better off.

why are people like you even on forums?
at what part did i offend you? seriously
was it because you sent me somewhere where i had already been and i asked for more information?
or is because everyone is agreeing with everyone that people like me are stupid because im trying to learn?

Fongolio · March 2009

Dude thinks cables make very little or no difference.
Buddy thinks they make ALL the difference.
Why do Dude and Buddy need to insult, belittle, attack, and humilitate each other?
Simply because they hear things differently?
Live and let live people.
Kumbaya my lord Kumbaya.

Fongolio · March 2009

^^^^^^spelling correction humilitate = humiliate ^^^^^^

F1nut · March 2009

Jeb,

I can see you're trying and really want to learn. IMO, you're way ahead of some others here.

Reading about what interests you can be a big help, but will only take you so far in this crazy hobby. Actual experience nets the most benefit. So, what kind of rig do you have, 2 channel, HT or both. Are you interested in speaker wire and/or IC's and what are you using now?

Are there any hifi shops were you live?

As for the forum and comments made......well, there's a lot of banter, some funny, some sarcastic. You just have to roll with the flow and try not to take it personal, ok?

Jesse

Jeb85 · March 2009

Keiko wrote: »

People like me? Wow Jeb, whatever do you mean?
This may sound a bit biased, but see post #139

lol, people like you as in you try to belittle everyone who is new. end result you getting a reaction like this.... and there is no good advice
#139 i did test cables and did hear a difference but they only had one brand!
i agree that cables make a difference at no point did i argue this.... and i don't have access to any other stores that has any other brands.
and if all the experience is from listening to every component why do people ask questions on forums? because you are saying that the only way im going to know which has the attributes that suit me is to try every last one out there and decide. well if thats the case then why do people ask questions?

should i give up because of people like Keiko? not going to happen

can anyone help with which cables have which attributes?

the only reason why i wanted a comparison of 12 guage wire is because thats what i have for speakerwire. i had no idea that IC's are so complex. i didn't know so i asked for what i thought i should ask for and found some information that helped but now i would like more helpful information.

Jeb85 · March 2009

sorry F1 i was in mid post. i only have 1 hifi shop for about 2 hours in any direction so im limited. but if the only way to know whats best is to go to a bigger center i suppose what i have to do is that
as for a system i run a H/K AVR354 with a Parasound a52 for my speakers which are LSi15, LSiC and LSi9's
like i said ICs aren't in the budget yet but would like to start getting an idea of what to get now then last minute

F1nut · March 2009

Ok, I think you and Keiko simply got off on the wrong foot. He's a good guy and like a lot of us will be glad to help if it's clear that a person truly wants help and isn't closed minded about it all.

Norm Apter · March 2009

Jeb85 wrote: »

sorry F1 i was in mid post. i only have 1 hifi shop for about 2 hours in any direction so im limited. but if the only way to know whats best is to go to a bigger center i suppose what i have to do is that
as for a system i run a H/K AVR354 with a Parasound a52 for my speakers which are LSi15, LSiC and LSi9's
like i said ICs aren't in the budget yet but would like to start getting an idea of what to get now then last minute

Jeb,

Do you have an approximate budget in mind for speaker cables? And are you looking only for cables for your two fronts or for all five speakers (within that budget)?

Norm

F1nut · March 2009

as for a system i run a H/K AVR354 with a Parasound a52 for my speakers which are LSi15, LSiC and LSi9's

Seems like a nice set up you have there. Mostly for HT, I take it. Are your present wires run inwall? Does it matter to you? What is yout budget for speaker wire at this time?

F1nut · March 2009

Another thought. If you give a general location of were you live there are often other Polkies near by that wouldn't mind sharing their knowledge first hand as in they may have some cables they will demo for you or even let you borrow to try in your sysytem.

BlueFox · March 2009

......but that's because my works is seasonal. I don't really work much in the winter, so I was doing a lot of window shopping

I have a question about trimming a tree , if you not mind work related questions during off-time.

More than once I have seen, what looks to me, a perfectly good tree reduced to a naked, exposed shrub. The trimming was almost total in that all branches were gone, leaving the tree looking like it has been amputated to death, and dying. On the other hand, they did seem to survive, after some sick time.

Is this a normal practice, or are these guys like me, know nothings with a chain saw?

Ender · March 2009

Keiko wrote: »

Cables make no difference. You'd be wasting your money buying some expensive, exotic cables. Stick with lamp cord or Monster products.

I'm outa here.

Er... not sure why you quoted my post in your post. I was just noting how expensive cables were...

Norm Apter wrote: »

Yes, they are not cheap. But I have a proposition. As we discussed last night, maybe we can get together some time in May...perhaps you can head over to my apartment.

Unfortunately, I don't have any really nice speaker cables (yet) but I would love to give you the chance to compare several different kinds of ICs. I've got a few pair of MIT Shotgun S-3s, Audioquest Diamondbacks, Signal Cable Analog IIs, Belkin PureAV silver series ICs and, the cheapest of them all, a $15 pair of standard RCAs that I bought from Parts Express (probably on par with Monoprice).

Anyway, I was thinking that I could switch them in and out of my 2 channel rig and you could have a listen with your own ears. You could do it blindly (if you are worried about the so-called placebo effect) so that your subconscious does not have a vested interest in hearing a difference when there allegedly isn't one.

No pressure...just, if you want to. But the point is, forget about ALL of the literature (biased or unbiased) charts, and measurements.

Hearing is believing (or not believing).

Sounds good. I would really like to get a chance to audition some cables without having to pay for them.

If or when I get those SDA pairs, maybe you could come down to MY place instead!

(although West LA is a nicer area and has the beaches close by... lol). But either way it works for me because you have speaker gear I really want to audition as well.

heiney9 wrote: »

Gotta pay to play!

Seriously they are always on sale and you can get them used for 60-70% less

That's good to know. I've already spent a ton of money (in my perspective) on audio equipment... God knows I could use a break on some of these prices. Lol. Thanks!

comfortablycurt · March 2009

BlueFox wrote: »

I have a question about trimming a tree , if you not mind work related questions during off-time.

More than once I have seen, what looks to me, a perfectly good tree reduced to a naked, exposed shrub. The trimming was almost total in that all branches were gone, leaving the tree looking like it has been amputated to death, and dying. On the other hand, they did seem to survive, after some “sick” time.

Is this a normal practice, or are these guys like me, know nothings with a chain saw?

I think what you're referring to here is "topping". Where they take a limb and reduce the height of it by cutting it off mid-limb. This is not an acceptable tree care practice, and is only really practiced by what I like to refer to as "hillbilly with a ladder" tree services. Needless to say, that's not me. I'm an ISA(International Society of Arboriculture) Certified Tree Worker/Climber Specialist, and I'm in training to become a Certified Arborist. I'm apprenticing under my older brother, who's been a Certified Arborist for about 8 years now.

Topping a tree is one of the worst things you can do for them. Trees have vascular systems just like people do, this is called the cambium layer. Starches and sugars get transferred through this layer to the crown, and the leaves transfer the "food" through the process of photosynthesis down this layer to the rest of the tree. When you remove the top of the tree it essentially sends it into a state of shock.

Like I said, the leaves are how a tree produces it's food. When you remove all of these major limbs and in turn, the leaves all at once, the tree basically freaks out and starts trying to produce as many new growths as it can, to produce the food it needs to survive. This is why a couple years or so later there are about 6-7 new shoots where there used to be one solid limb. This weakens the trees structural integrity by roughly 49%. Where there used to be one solid limb, there are now about 6-7 smaller, weak limbs, with a cavity right in the center that is essentially rotting away little by little.

The purpose of it is to reduce a tree's height, but it's really ineffective in the long run, because of all the new shoots that it produces. A couple years later the tree's going to be just as tall, and 49% weaker in the spots where you were attempting the height reduction. Essentially negating what you were trying to achieve.

There are other ways of reducing a tree's height, without doing this. Unfortunately most people that are in the business either don't know this, or don't care. Tree's also have something called an "Apical Mairstem", which is essentially where a smaller branch comes off of a larger limb. In a proper height reduction, you can cut something off mid-limb, but you want to cut it evenly with one of the "apical mairstem's". Ideally, the cutting point should be at a branch that is roughly 1/3 to 2/3 the size of the original limb. This allows the new limb to take over in "apical dominance". The limb is now going to focus all of it's energy and growth into this new primary limb, rather than sprouting out the 6-7 new shoots that you get from topping the tree.

Unfortunately, topping is a very common practice...people are starting to realize how bad it is though. It used to be a lot more common than it is now. If you're ever looking for a tree service, look for someone with ISA certification, because through that certification they're required to, and in all reality would prefer to use proper pruning/care techniques.

You'll be receiving a bill for my consultation. I don't do those for free ya know.;):p j/k

heiney9 · March 2009

Jeb85 wrote: »

but for some threads you have to read through 4 pages to get a basic answer. i am new to this stuff and want to learn just not with all the crap that some people put out there

Welcome to the internet. You want concise, direct, slightly biased answers in a nutshell all spelled out and nicely organized. Hire an audio consultant. Being on this forum or any other internet forum is no different than going to library. Do some digging, make some notes and use the search feature.

No one said it was easy

H9

heiney9 · March 2009

BlueFox wrote: »

I have a question about trimming a tree , if you not mind work related questions during off-time.

More than once I have seen, what looks to me, a perfectly good tree reduced to a naked, exposed shrub. The trimming was almost total in that all branches were gone, leaving the tree looking like it has been amputated to death, and dying. On the other hand, they did seem to survive, after some sick time.

Is this a normal practice, or are these guys like me, know nothings with a chain saw?

Dude, not to jump all over you........but are you serious? Use this kind of stuff for a separate thread or there is a function called a PM (private message). This has PM written all over it.

H9

Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

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