Spearker cables..fact or fiction?

Ender

Holy hell!!! Strip me down and spank me!!!

I got curious since all this ruckus about cables and I checked out the MIT products page... JEBUS! Expensive stuff there! I could spend my entire audio budget on a couple cables!

TECHNOKID

Ender wrote: »

Fiction! Speaker cables don't exist!!!

Proper speaker cabling is not fiction however, there are many myths out there surrounding cables which are fiction. I feel serious research (educated) should move away from any of the bias market research of companies. Here some facts from Wikipedia that I feel speak for them selves;

Even with poor-quality wire, an audible degradation of sound may not exist. Many supposedly audible differences in speaker wire can be attributed to listener bias or the placebo effect. Listener bias is enhanced in no small part by the popular manufacturers' practice of making claims about their products either with no valid engineering or scientific basis, or of no real-world significance. Many manufacturers catering to audiophiles (as well as those supplying less expensive retail markets) also make unmeasurable, if poetic, claims about their wire sounding open, dynamic, or smooth. To justify these claims, many cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance of the cable, or resonance, which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these has any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies[2].

I personally like to stress on the "PLACEBO" effect; one poster mentioned that it was up to the ears to recognise the audio improvement but in fact it was omitted to point out that the ears are hooked-up to the brain and guess what, lots of interpretation is left to the brain (isn’t millions of people claimed to have seen UFO's) :rolleyes:

[edit] Wire material
Use of copper is more or less universal for speaker wire; it has low resistance and less cost compared to other suitable materials. Copper and aluminum both oxidize, but oxides of copper are conductive, while those of aluminum are capacitative and insulating.

Silver has a slightly lower resistivity than copper, which allows a thinner wire to have the same resistance. Silver is expensive, so a copper wire with the same resistance costs considerably less. Like copper, silver is also subject to oxidation.Gold has a higher resistivity than either copper or silver, but it does not oxidize, so it can be used for wire-end terminations. Suitably specified gold flashing has its uses for appropriate tasks, but in domestic use such flashing is not normally functional, for several reasons.

As I pointed out in another post, if some feel good (and have the money to spare) about having their cables match their silver or gold jewelleries well, if they are happy that is the main goal. However, I feel the proper information should be fed to people after all most of us are coming on these forums to acquire better knowledge, not to debate who's right or wrong or worse who have the better system!

Unbiased and educational link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

(everyone should pay attention to this one if they haven't done so yet!): http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


Some companies dare to be honest about the scams in cable marketting: http://www.cobaltcable.com/pdfs/Common%20Cable%20Myths%20Explained.pdf

This definitely isn't the first forum having the debate on such topic: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/expensive-cables-silly-squiggly-snakes-ahhh-mine-eyes-408218/index8.html

treitz3

Technokid, of course you are correct. I read the Roger Russel link and you are absolutely right. Cables make no difference. I am surprised that you are as wise as you are.

bobman1235

I love that a Wikipedia page is pointed to as an "unbiased and educational link". Someone needs to read up on what Wikipedia is.

treitz3

Of course. That's the only answer. They are all correct. Now that that's said, for a comic book review, click this link I found for "the truth".

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/truth-about-different-speaker-cables-412135/#post5475079

*yawn*

Why do folks even bother?

*yawn*

I think I'll go update my address book for local pimps now. At least that will be more productive than this crap.

TECHNOKID

bobman1235 wrote: »

I love that a Wikipedia page is pointed to as an "unbiased and educational link". Someone needs to read up on what Wikipedia is.

Neutrality has long been, and will always be, the only way Wikipedia can remain an unbiased source of information for the whole world.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Why_should_Wikipedia_be_unbiased?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Why_should_Wikipedia_be_unbiased%3F

Norm Apter

Ender wrote: »

Holy hell!!! Strip me down and spank me!!!

I got curious since all this ruckus about cables and I checked out the MIT products page... JEBUS! Expensive stuff there! I could spend my entire audio budget on a couple cables!

Yes, they are not cheap. But I have a proposition. As we discussed last night, maybe we can get together some time in May...perhaps you can head over to my apartment.

Unfortunately, I don't have any really nice speaker cables (yet) but I would love to give you the chance to compare several different kinds of ICs. I've got a few pair of MIT Shotgun S-3s, Audioquest Diamondbacks, Signal Cable Analog IIs, Belkin PureAV silver series ICs and, the cheapest of them all, a $15 pair of standard RCAs that I bought from Parts Express (probably on par with Monoprice).

Anyway, I was thinking that I could switch them in and out of my 2 channel rig and you could have a listen with your own ears. You could do it blindly (if you are worried about the so-called placebo effect) so that your subconscious does not have a vested interest in hearing a difference when there allegedly isn't one.

No pressure...just, if you want to. But the point is, forget about ALL of the literature (biased or unbiased) charts, and measurements.

Hearing is believing (or not believing).

Face

So what does everyone think about power cords? Can they make a difference?

heiney9

Ender wrote: »

Holy hell!!! Strip me down and spank me!!!

I got curious since all this ruckus about cables and I checked out the MIT products page... JEBUS! Expensive stuff there! I could spend my entire audio budget on a couple cables!

Gotta pay to play!

Seriously they are always on sale and you can get them used for 60-70% less

sucks2beme

Look at the cable swap results. I'll go with people I know and trust
over random internet searches. My own ears tell me something, too.
But whatever. We had people come on this board to tell us all properly
designed amps sound the same, too.
BTW, I have dealt with cables in radio and telecom applications, too.
Yet, I have found cables that sound different. Go figure.
I won't be buying any $1k cables any time soon. But there are differences
even in $200 cables.

inspiredsports

I was a big skeptic last October. I joined the group in November. I received some MIT's at Christmas time. I've auditioned 6 sets since then, settling on Shotgun 2's.

"Speaker cables..fact or fiction? . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FACT!




Wow, just noticed this is my 666th post

inspiredsports

Keiko wrote: »

Wrath of God will follow you heathen.

I'm going to hurry up and post this 667th, my fellow fact, not fiction believer.

F1nut

C3PO,

Why do you, like all cable naysayers, feel the need to "save" us from ourselves? That's a rhetorical question.

If you don't believe cables make a difference, that's fine.....I've got no problem with that, but please stop trying to convince us/others of that. You're never going to change anyone's mind, we've read it all and mean ALL of it before. The mere fact that you resorted to quoting from Wikipedia (LOL) and RR simply ruins any credibility you might have had.

comfortablycurt

How many times is that Roger Russel link going to be posted? Is that like the holy grail of cable information? Every time this debate pops up, somebody posts that link up.:rolleyes: Wikipedia?..lmao!! Wow.


So, from what I've gathered from this thread, absolutely nothing makes any difference, from any aspect. All amps are the same. All cables are the same...I guess I should quit upgrading my system. Apparently it's already as good as it could possibly ever be. That's good to know. I have the most awesome stereo in the world!!! Thanks for cluing me into this fact.

TECHNOKID

Keiko wrote: »

Been a productive afternoon here for me. Ya know, updating the Bozo list, switching out my MIT's for lamp cord. WoW! This **** green wire really makes my rig sing. Thanks guys!

Here is some statement which I really like from a link taken from the link treitz3 has so graciously provided:

“If it were true that cables could be able to improve the characteristics of a Hi-Fi system, we would be the first ones to advise it in the instructions guide, but as the connection between the amplifier’s output and the speakers input can be made with any cable, being only necessary that the copper cable is the adequate to the amplifiers power, we do not take it into account”

That leads me to a few questions:

1. Who are actually the BOZO's????

2. Honestly, my Polk speakers are not high end by no means and I never saw any recommendation from Polk that I needed any high end cables for best results. However, for you high end folks, where does Polk recommend any high end cables for best performance of your speakers??????????

3. We all know how a speaker is designed so in order to best match high end cables maybe speaker company should start building speakers avoiding making good old impure copper coils, right? He! Maybe this could be the new marketing trend to profit from the hardcore audiophiles out there? After all, gold and silver always been known as good baits for fishing!:p

All amps are the same. All cables are the same...

Humm, this comment comparing amps and cables keeps on popping... I really wonder of knowledge of people that does such comparisions. Maybe I really was a bozo and got it all wrong as unfortunately I spent more time and money in chosing my amp than I did for my cables. Matter of fact, I didn't have to pay for the cable this time around since I already had a full spool at home therefore, at that price it really must be garbage :eek: I guess I have to start my system shopping all over again with all the thruth coming out

F1nut

1. STFU
2. STFU
3. STFU

Any questions?

heiney9

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Here is some statement which I really like from a link taken from the link treitz3 has so graciously provided:

“If it were true that cables could be able to improve the characteristics of a Hi-Fi system, we would be the first ones to advise it in the instructions guide, but as the connection between the amplifier’s output and the speakers input can be made with any cable, being only necessary that the copper cable is the adequate to the amplifiers power, we do not take it into account”

That leads me to a few questions:

1. Who are actually the BOZO's????

2. Honestly, my Polk speakers are not high end by no means and I never saw any recommendation from Polk that I needed any high end cables for best results. However, for you high end folks, where does Polk recommend any high end cables for best performance of your speakers??????????

3. We all know how a speaker is designed so in order to best match high end cables maybe speaker company should start building speakers avoiding making good old impure copper coils, right? He! Maybe this could be the new marketing trend to profit from the hardcore audiophiles out there? After all, gold and silver always been known as good baits for fishing!:p

1) I'm sure you're on it.

2) They don't recommend you use separates or expensive components but they are night and day over a receiver.

3) No, please enlighten us about WTH you are talking about

comfortablycurt

F1nut wrote: »

1. STFU
2. STFU
3. STFU

Any questions?

This is the hands down, most informative post in this whole thread. Thanks Jesse. It really gets the point across.:)


Technokid...I recently sent away for Polks "Home Theater Guide". I received it a few weeks ago. There is a section dedicated to speaker wire, in which they recommend using something of slightly higher quality than cheap zip cord from Home Depot. They specifically say that higher quality cabling will make a big difference. They also highly recommend experimenting with different brands/types of cables to see what best suits your setup.



Again...for those of you who don't think cables make a difference...Congrats! You're going to save a lot of money. You aren't going to make any of the believers think otherwise though. I don't even know why you're trying...is it personally impacting your life when other people spend a lot of money on cables?

hifiaudio

F1nut wrote: »

1. STFU
2. STFU
3. STFU

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Very well said..

inspiredsports

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Here is some statement which I really like from a link taken from the link treitz3 has so graciously provided:

“If it were true that cables could be able to improve the characteristics of a Hi-Fi system, we would be the first ones to advise it in the instructions guide, but as the connection between the amplifier’s output and the speakers input can be made with any cable, being only necessary that the copper cable is the adequate to the amplifiers power, we do not take it into account”

That leads me to a few questions:

1. Who are actually the BOZO's????

2. Honestly, my Polk speakers are not high end by no means and I never saw any recommendation from Polk that I needed any high end cables for best results. However, for you high end folks, where does Polk recommend any high end cables for best performance of your speakers??????????

3. We all know how a speaker is designed so in order to best match high end cables maybe speaker company should start building speakers avoiding making good old impure copper coils, right? He! Maybe this could be the new marketing trend to profit from the hardcore audiophiles out there? After all, gold and silver always been known as good baits for fishing!:p

Humm, this comment comparing amps and cables keeps on popping... I really wonder of knowledge of people that does such comparisions. Maybe I really was a bozo and got it all wrong as unfortunately I spent more time and money in chosing my amp than I did for my cables. Matter of fact, I didn't have to pay for the cable this time around since I already had a full spool at home therefore, at that price it really must be garbage :eek: I guess I have to start my system shopping all over again with all the thruth coming out

Polk also doesn't mention what brand/quality of turntable or CD player to use. What does that mean ???

TECHNOKID

Again...for those of you who don't think cables make a difference...Congrats! You're going to save a lot of money. You aren't going to make any of the believers think otherwise though. I don't even know why you're trying...is it personally impacting your life when other people spend a lot of money on cables?

The goal is far from trying to get people that are stuck in their beliefs to think otherewise. However, I care a lot more about the people that you simply enjoy calling "newbies" to simply elevate your self instead of truly helping them. When I join forums, I share my views with others and my goal isn't to gang up on someone else that has different opinion then mine... on the opposite, "I agree to disagree"

The OP posted is own experience and it didn't take long for the "Mr. Know all" to start bashing.You might laugh at the links I provided but I think it is no worse than providing a link to a so called cable manufacturer or dealer. If you want to turn any "nOOB" into believers, I'd suggest you put more effort in to providing positive facts ratter than name callings and ganging and trying to put down the posters. Except for a few (IE: Norm Apter), I didn't see any constructive comments to lead anyone (educate) that was either questionning or not beleiving such expensive cables could improve their audio sound.

Many times the expression "open minded" has been suggested, I wouldn't waiste my time on forums if I didn't and surely wouldn't waiste any time decyphering between the crap posts/responses only to find the few that are tiny bit informative! Only stupid people take for granted what others say without checking and debating! Maybe a suggestion here, if some think they are way above the so called "nOObs" and that they aren't worthy of their precious help/time why don't they simply avoid the discussions and stick in the club house to chit chat amongst superior brains???

NOTE: Everyone was once a nOOB, unfortunately they don't seem to remeber as they are now the mighty expert they became. Is this really what Polk was hoping out of their forum? The simple but clear forum rules leads me to beleive otherwise!!

Cheers!

F1nut

The goal is far from trying to get people that are stuck in their beliefs to think otherewise. However, I care a lot more about the people that you simply enjoy calling "newbies" to simply elevate your self instead of truly helping them. When I join forums, I share my views with others and my goal isn't to gang up on someone else that has different opinion then mine... on the opposite, "I agree to disagree"

The OP posted is own experience and it didn't take long for the "Mr. Know all" to start bashing.You might laugh at the links I provided but I think it is no worse than providing a link to a so called cable manufacturer or dealer. If you want to turn any "nOOB" into believers, I'd suggest you put more effort in to providing positive facts ratter than name callings and ganging and trying to put down the posters. Except for a few (IE: Norm Apter), I didn't see any constructive comments to lead anyone (educate) that was either questionning or not beleiving such expensive cables could improve their audio sound.

Many times the expression "open minded" has been suggested, I wouldn't waiste my time on forums if I didn't and surely wouldn't waiste any time decyphering between the crap posts/responses only to find the few that are tiny bit informative! Only stupid people take for granted what others say without checking and debating! Maybe a suggestion here, if some think they are way above the so called "nOObs" and that they aren't worthy of their precious help/time why don't they simply avoid the discussions and stick in the club house to chit chat amongst superior brains???

Ya know C3PO, you remind me of this guy that moved into my neighborhood when I was younger. He wanted to hang around with my mates and I, so we let him. In short order it became clear that he babbled nonstop about things that he really had no knowledge of and was generally annoying as hell. I/we couldn't take it anymore, so one day I picked him up and hung him by his underwear on a telephone pole's steel lineman's step about six feet up. Never did find out how he got down.

Don't be that guy.

Hawkeye

Another interesting cable thread. Pros, Cons, believers, non-believers and of of course the ever popular Roger Russell link. Do with wires as you will. Spend as little or as much as you desire, it is all good! The pack mentality, on either side will never convince the other.

It is pretty obvious that MIT is the flavor of the month around here. Frank's, Bens, Mono and Blue Jeans have all had their massive threads about how great they all are. There must be a thousand other wire makers who offer the same percieved benefit for more or less money than the above mentioned companies.

I'm going to ask to enter the MIT audition to see what the hype is all about. I have my doubts about the "box" but I'm open minded enough to "hear " for myself and give an honest opinion.

Wires can and do make a difference. I guess I just put myself into one of the mobs!

phipiper10

Damn, you guys still here? Why bother? I was around for the popcorn and soda at the start but you guys know better. This thread never goes anywhere.

...Nothing to see here..... move along.....

Gotta go my $3milion cables just arrived from Diamond Cables...BEST EVAAAA!!!!!

Toolfan66

WOW!!!!!! Was'nt there a post just a few day's ago about how much better this place has become?

amulford

TECHNOKID wrote: »

2. Honestly, my Polk speakers are not high end by no means and I never saw any recommendation from Polk that I needed any high end cables for best results. However, for you high end folks, where does Polk recommend any high end cables for best performance of your speakers??????????

Son, if you had done any real research, Polk actually designed and had high end speaker cables manufactured for them at one time.

WTF is it with this tired bullsh!t???

inspiredsports

Thanks to bobt and technokid, I figured it out! Their opinions and network expertise lead me to the truth. I've been duped because evidently my MIT's are "just #5 or #6". bobt's being a "network guy" got me to thinking and since I had a couple of old Netgear 802.11g wireless routers and access points laying around, I hooked them to my amps and Polks

Voila! No more wires. Screw you expensive cable companies! I use AIR for speaker wires now.

I'm also ripping apart the tin foil swan they packed my wife's leftover filet in tonight and braiding it into new IC's!


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

BlueFox

inspiredsports wrote: »

Voila! No more wires. Screw you expensive cable companies! I use AIR for speaker wires now.

I wouldn't be surprised if wireless equipment already exists for this purpose, and if it doesn't you can bet that at some point it will.

At that time, we will start seeing debates along the vinyl vs. digital lines, except then it will be "My cable transmits the analog signal better than the wireless does."

Of course, we will have to buy some of each in order to find what works best in our environment. The only thing constant in this field is there will always be a reason to spend more money.

steveinaz

Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know...

inspiredsports

BlueFox wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if wireless equipment already exists for this purpose, and if it doesn't you can bet that at some point it will.

At that time, we will start seeing debates along the vinyl vs. digital lines, except then it will be "My cable transmits the analog signal better than the wireless does."

Of course, we will have to buy some of each in order to find what works best in our environment. The only thing constant in this field is there will always be a reason to spend more money.

I'm already working on a patent for an ionizer that adds small particles of silver and gold to the air. It acts to improve wireless conductivity and also works as an antiseptic to prevent upper respiratory infection (I think this better be my last Samuel Adams for the night).



PS.: I hope everyone gets it that I'm being a bit facetious.