An important message from the Management

Jstas

It's not about the rules, people.

It's not about the Flea Market, people.

It's not about who's attitude is what, people.

It's not about moderators, people.

It's about YOUR attitude. Yeah, I'm pointing at you!

None of you can leave well enough alone. You don't like somebody, you find every reason you can to pick a fight, whether that person "deserved" it or not. You can't just ignore them and stay away from them. You have to yank the chain and rattle the cage. Then you all get flumoxed by the idea that the person you are taunting like a bunch of moronic 6th graders gets pissed off at you and lashes out. But that's his fault, right? Riiiiight. You all throw labels around. You snicker behind each others backs and service your own agendas. I've watched this happen. I've even reached out to those being tortured by this because I feel bad for them and I know what it's like to be on the receiving end.

We have people here who are disgustingly polite and non-combative. We have people here who are delightfully twisted in their sense of humor. We have people here who REALLY know their stuff. We have people here who seem miserable and combative. We have people here who seem self-serving and condescending. We have people here who can't seem to learn to spell. We have people here who don't even read The Clubhouse. We have all races, probably all religions and quite a few different countries. U.S.A., Canada, Germany, India, U.K., Mexico, Japan, Korea, China, Australia and a couple South American countries from what I can remember.

You know what the common thread is though? They are all PEOPLE!

None of you treat each other like people. You lash out and make comments that you would NEVER make in front of someone's face. You talk about a "family" atmosphere and it makes me laugh. A long while ago that was true. But if this place was what my family was like I'd probably have off'ed myself decades ago. And my family is pretty dysfunctional.

You all need to check yourselves. The funniest thing is that as soon as things get brought up that life is suck around here, the noble ones come out of the woodowork. They offer to be our saviors and to be moderators and pontificate on how they can handle the job...yet some of them aren't even out of college yet, hell, some are still in high school. And they want to moderate people that are 20, 30, hell 50 years older than them with twice as much life experience under their belt than the noble one's age? Get real!

Then there are the people who will sit here and tell us that they aren't the problem but they can show us who is. Look in a mirror, pal. You are just as much the problem as anyone else is. Then there are the ones who completely miss the point and tell everyone how to fix the problem but they have no clue what the problem is. How can you fix a problem that you don't understand?

You measure post count. It doesn't mean squat. We have people who haven't been here 2 full years yet are breaching 5K posts. Those people need something to occupy their time better. We have people screaming about others with 10K plus posts like that has ever been thrown in their faces. Sure, there are "veterans" here but you know what? Look at the post counts of some of the "veterans". It's got nuthin' to do with how many times you hit "submit". It has to do with how you carry yourself and your strength of character.

We talk about access to the Flea Market. You know what? When it first started, we didn't have these issues and the Flea Market was pretty self-cleansing and the shysters were rooted out pretty quick and dealt with. Now we go overboard with the "me too!" attitude and pile on to someone who might have just misunderstood the agreed upon policies.

We get mad when we talk about stuff that we think we know about. When someone who DOES know speaks up, we call them condescending and accuse them of having a superiority complex. We get mad when we make a poor life decision, post about it and everybody asks WTF dude? We put other users on ignore and then taunt them anyway which totally defeats the purpose of the ignore feature.

I know the average age of the forum is now down in the 20's but you'd think it was way lower with the way everybody acts towards each other. You all claim you have thick skin but the ones who shout that the most get in to the most squabbles. At the same time, having a self proclaimed "thick skin" doesn't mean you get to have a big mouth too.

You all seem to be able to peacefully co-exist with other mouth-breathers around you on a daily basis. Yet for some reason, when you get behind the keyboard all common sense, decency and respect goes out the window.

This is an imperfect medium for communication. Too much is missing like facial expressions, body language and tone of voice which we use to cue us in on the extra meanings behind our words. And these damn things: :eek::mad::rolleyes::cool:;):D:o:( don't help at all.

We all came here...well, most of us came here out of a desired to find kindred spirits. Not to "learn" specifically like others seem to have stated over and over again. We came here to talk shop. We are all here because many of us do not have others in our immediate vicinity who are as enthused about this hobby as we are. So we came here and found people to talk shop with. Why can we not seem to talk shop but would rather talk about everything else and bite each other's faces off?

This place is incredibly intolerant.

It's not Polk Audio. They aren't the problem. It's not the admins, they aren't the problem. It's not the forum, the forum is peachy just the way it is. It's not even the moderators, they have a suck job and I don't envy them. I've been there before myself and it's a thankless, punishing and abusive job. The problem is the moderated. You people suck and you treat each other like crap.

Wise up. Al said he's gonna shut this place down and you know what? That would suck. I've spent hours upon hours here answering tech questions, explaining how car systems work, designing subwoofer boxes and putting together posts with tutorials on how to do certain things. I could have built my own website with all the info and made my own community but I contributed here instead because I felt more of a connection here and that the info would be more appreciated here.

Hell, I've spent about 60 hours total installing systems in other member's cars because they needed help. I've come to Polkfests. I've visited members houses. I've bought about $6K worth of gear here from people in the FM. Best of all, I've met some really cool people and made some very good friends. The only reason I'm helping out with Polkfest this year is not because I care about these people who bag on me and try to bust me down every chance they get. I'm helping because my friend Lou told me he needed the help. So here I am. That is what this place is about for us. Sure Polk Audio gets to reap benefits but we get alot out of it too. Hell, we get to hob nob with corporate execs! I know many of them don't know and probably don't like me but they were still pleasant to me and my friend. They even fed us! How cool was that?

Yeah, this place isn't cool anymore because alot of people who get that don't hang around anymore and the numbers are dwindling. The people who do hang around report those people who get it because they are trying to drum in to your thick skulls that your attitudes suck.

There, I said what everyone else seems to have been trying to say without actually saying it and I did it in my signature way. The man said your fragile little world here is going to come crashing down around you. The time for "nice" has long since passed and now you need to hear what you need to hear. Don't bag on people like dorokusai and RuSsMaN because they are telling you. Suck it up and take it heart because they are telling you because YOU are the problem. So in a PG version of GG's signature way, "That statement will probably offend someone. They need to know ahead of time that I don't care."



Al, I'm not sure what Polk Audio can do here. Lotsa ideas have been suggested but none seem to hit the mark. In the end you gotta make a business decision. If this goes away, people will just have to deal with it. There are plenty of other message forums for them to go screw up elsewhere. As far as suggestions, I made mine. People need to suck it up, grow up and act like decent human beings.

PSOVLSK

squeeb wrote: »

Here is another idea for you to take under advisement (sorry if it is a repost, I did not read, word for word, all 11 pages). Allow the OP to close their own thread. I asked a simple (I thought) question about power cables a few weeks ago and it took off like a wild fire. I had what I needed after the first two pages. If I would have had control over the thread I started, I would have just closed it. End of discussion and the moderator would not have had to close it 3 pages later.

We should be able to self-police a little better around here. I really don’t want to pay more for Polk speakers because you need more paid moderators for our forum.



Squeeb

Couple of great suggestions squeeb

I also agree with you that I am a loyal Polk customer because of this forum.

schwarcw

Greetings and thanks for the opportunity to post some of my ideas here. I love the Polk Forum. I have made many friends here and I have learned a lot about audio. This Forum has been a great learning resource and I want to thank Polk for the opportunity to be a member.

I've read about 10 pages of posts so my ideas may have already been spoken.

The AK Forum doesn't seem to have as much of this. The Forum is moderated consistently, and bad behavior is just not tolerated. I'd say the Polk Forum needs more mods and consistent moderation.

To sell items, a $25 annual membership fee is charged to get to Barter town. This will keep out most of the trolls. Spammers and other for sale threads are shut down immediately. Members are warned, spammers are banned.

Maybe all newbie posts should be reviewed by a moderator until the content can be scrutinized.

Fongolio

Jstas, thank you.

[Deleted User]

Club Polk has been a great place to invest time into. Regardless of post count, tenure, moderation, the club has become like the wild west in a sense. I understand when one points out watching out for one another, but if you are watching out for one another should it not be private? Instead things are said and the snowball effect starts to accumulate. Its almost like "I need someone to say something in my favor so I could justify what I am wanting to do" mentality.
The power of ignore is a gifted feature, that so many fail to understand and use. Increasing moderators is not an answer in itself. I understand free will, but I also understand moderation on my part. I strongly believe that newcomers should have more room to learn. They are new to the place and they decide to participate in forums because there was something about the place that attracted them in the first place. Idea generation is a key concept that stimulates innovation.
Club Polk is considered a close knit family. In all honesty, who is this family? Is it rated on post count, agreement with others, time, or is it interaction with others? I have interacted with many other people here in person, yet, I am not family. So what is this family that people speak of? People close to headquarters? I have spent time reading the posts from the original poster, I see a different perspective from what I am reading.
There will be newcomers every day, face it, it is a fact. If people claim that they are members of a family here than those very people need to understand something. I believe without a doubt that the complaints are a direct result from this Polk family.
The answer to the problem is not more moderation or somehow the for sale and post count threads. The answer is the ability given to Club Polk members, tenured or not, the ability to not respond and ignore. I sense the problem is not a lack thereof Polk, but a lack thereof members. I feel that the OP is sending a message in a form of a question. Everyone that believes so strongly in this community needs to become a moderator. First by moderating yourself, use the ignore function, and guide by example. If you cannot do that, than have your Polk Family help you. Remember, you were once a newcomer with many questions, it's your experience as a newcomer that kept you here. I think the number one way to keep what we have going is for all members to become more helpful and less hateful in the manner of tribal attacks. If, as a member and you feel a part of this so called family, than do not further destroy what is left. If it is gone, than at least I will know how strong this so called Polk family thing is. Watch out for one another right? Do it. Oh one last thing, my ignore function is very powerful, I have selective reading beyond my ignore list.

comfortablycurt

Sorry if my posts got a touch off-topic earlier. I just always try to find the humor in a bad situation. It helps to lighten the mood a bit in my experience.:)


I think everyones thoughts on the topic have really been spoken, and the general consensus is that people need to simply start conducting themselves a bit better.

As many others have mentioned before, the way I've seen some people act on here before is atrocious. Some of the things that have been said here, nobody would say directly to someones face(I hope not anyway).

Don't take me wrong. I realize I haven't been perfect in my time here. Some of you flat out don't like me. I'm fine with that. I've had my share of arguments...incited my share of arguments and contributed plenty. I've received infractions too.

I try to avoid the arguments anymore. We all know the main topics here that always turn into arguments. Most of the time, there's no reason for them to take the direction that they do.

I'll do my part to avoid it in the future, as all of us hopefully will.

jimbo1421

Fongolio wrote: »

Jstas, thank you.

times 2.

Jim

danger boy

ok this is getting way to long and way to heavy....

so i'm just going to sit this thread out.

let me know what you all decide.

Danger Boy
AL

engtaz

huggies wrote: »

I dont post much, but I've been around awhile and I read the forum daily. Here's the main things that I think need to be implemented:

1. The FleaMarket, 25 post rule is not working and actually adds to the forum problems. Newbies run up their post count with bs posts and other members respond with snide comments. Changing the requirement to a 3 month membership, or whatever is decided, would clear up a lot of trash on the forums.

2. I've been to several other forums where until your motivations for posting have been deemed honorable, your posts need to be approved via review. Might take a little more man hours, but it keeps the riff raff out from the get go.

3. Enforce the existing rules evenly on ALL, new and veteran members alike.

I would like to see a newby flee market. That way buyers be warned and it will not polute the Club flee market.

Knucklehead

The Flea Market seems to be a hot topic here....My opinion.....who cares if someone has 25 useless posts, we are smart enough to realize that. Just flat out ignore the thread completely, once the person has 50 views and realizes nobody is biting he will get the point, argument averted.

steveinaz

What else is there to say?

Here's 3 steps to success:

1. There's a handful of problem people, ban them. (why punish many, over a few?)
2. Assign more moderators.
3. Act on problem people/posts more quickly.

disneyjoe7

steveinaz wrote: »

What else is there to say?

Here's 3 steps to success:

1. There's a handful of problem people, ban them. (why punish many, over a few?)
2. Assign more moderators.
3. Act on problem people/posts more quickly.

4. Add a length of time for new members to start a thread in FM.
5. Place some Spam blocker for new members (Stopping robots from posting)



Problem's solved.

steveinaz

I have to say, I'm a little confused by all this. This forum is in far worse shape about 10-12 months ago--it's actually on an up-swing here lately. Sure, we had a blip with the recent ban, but other than that it's the typical banter that has been allowed to go on for a very long time.

How are we, the general membership, suppose to fix something that we have no control over? Trolls are NOT the problem. Spam is NOT the problem. Fly-by-night sellers are NOT the problem. The problem is a mere handful of people, ego's the size of Florida, allowed to do and say what they want, without punishment--it destroys the morale of the entire membership, and it chases off new people who are intimidated.

concealer404

steveinaz wrote: »

I have to say, I'm a little confused by all this. This forum is in far worse shape about 10-12 months ago--it's actually on an up-swing here lately. Sure, we had a blip with the recent ban, but other than that it's the typical banter that has been allowed to go on for a very long time.

How are we, the general membership, suppose to fix something that we have no control over? Trolls are NOT the problem. Spam is NOT the problem. Fly-by-night sellers are NOT the problem. The problem is a mere handful of people, ego's the size of Florida, allowed to do and say what they want, without punishment--it destroys the morale of the entire membership, and it chases off new people who are intimidated.

Agreed. It was far worse when i joined. The cable debates often now are just that.... debates, not flame-fests. The sense of comraderie has grown. The things that everyone is doing for everyone else (karmas, picking up gear for others, etc etc etc) is something that isn't found anywhere else on the internet to this extent, and it's really been happening more and more lately.


Trolls are part of the problem. There's a few that are well-established. But i think that's who you're outlining for the most part with your second paragraph. As for what the general membership can do about it? Just ignore them. Just as big of a problem is the response that these people get from the "general membership."

The only hard part about that is trying to figure out where it's appropriate to ignore them. In some cases, ignoring them can do a large disservice to the question that the OP may have asked. If we can't ignore, then keep it civil, and let them do what they want, and just hope that they'll suffer the consequences i guess.

Willow

Polk's house; Polk's rules. Follow them= stay and have fun; don't= bye-bye.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

It's pretty sad that the VP of Marketing has to step in.

shawn474

steveinaz wrote: »

I have to say, I'm a little confused by all this. This forum is in far worse shape about 10-12 months ago--it's actually on an up-swing here lately.

Steve, this stuff ebbs and flows as we all know. But, apparently from Al's post, he is fed up with it (better than the past or not). Which leads me to believe there aren't too many more incidences before this thing gets pulled permanently.

Willow wrote: »

Polk's house; Polk's rules. Follow them= stay and have fun; don't= bye-bye.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

It's pretty sad that the VP of Marketing has to step in.

Agreed, i have had my fair share of posts in this thread and think I have made my point many times over (to the chagrin of some). Willow is right. If we can't respect the forum to follow a SIMPLE suggestion from the VP of marketing who has threatened to shut the forum down, then we don't deserve it. Say what you want, but the fact that many are offering up grandiose suggestions on how to change the forum and professing their love of the forum and all that it involves, yet are somehow not moved to moderate their own behavior is beyond me. Banning people for inappropriate behavior is all well and good, until it happens to one of your buds and then all hell breaks loose. Adding more mods is all well and good until one of them says something that doesn't sit well with 1 member - then again all hell breaks loose. Bottom line is, monitor your own behavior, respond in and post threads about things that interest you, that you are looking for help with, that you can help others, etc. Otherwise, have some self restraint not to.


I am sure you are all sick of listening to me by now so I am respectfully bowing out of this thread. Let Polk and Al do what they see fit. I support them either way and would understand. I just hope that the forum doesn't go away.

disneyjoe7

steveinaz wrote: »

I have to say, I'm a little confused by all this. This forum is in far worse shape about 10-12 months ago--it's actually on an up-swing here lately. Sure, we had a blip with the recent ban, but other than that it's the typical banter that has been allowed to go on for a very long time.

How are we, the general membership, suppose to fix something that we have no control over? Trolls are NOT the problem. Spam is NOT the problem. Fly-by-night sellers are NOT the problem. The problem is a mere handful of people, ego's the size of Florida, allowed to do and say what they want, without punishment--it destroys the morale of the entire membership, and it chases off new people who are intimidated.

The problem is a mere handful of people, ego's the size of Florida, allowed to do and say what they want, without punishment--it destroys the morale of the entire membership, and it chases off new people who are intimidated.


Huh?


Spam to me is a problem has been for awhile now, I get here and see... Girls, Cell phones, Credit Card payments, etc. Why isn't not a problem and the fix is stupid like changing the oil easy. Agreed this isn't a big issue, but again an easy fix.

DAGLJAM6

The Forum belongs to all of us and, if you care one iota about it you ought to be working to save and protect it. I’m just like you in the quagmire. Except I have a responsibility to Polk Audio and I have the plug.

That statement should be the reality check we need to correct and set the course of this Forum from this point on. "If you care one iota about it you ought to be working to save and protect it" absolutely correct I find myself not
drawn to this Forum as much lately because of the B.S., as have others (yeah the ebb and flow is a factor as well) but I'm always re-energized when the group that gets together for the Polkfests. The core membership of this forum
is as diverse as the whole of its' membership and they get along at any and all functions I've attended over the years. The problem stems from a lack of discretion that the net fosters, going nuclear in a response is easier from a screen than in a direct face to face environment. That being the case just step back, take a break. The need to garner "brownie points" by being the last, loudest or rudest just isn't worth it in my opinion.

steveinaz

Trolls are only a problem for people who don't have capacity to IGNORE them, period.
Spam doesn't involve anyone on this board---it's unavoidable. I'm certain Al is not upset over spam.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how we as common users, are suppose to "moderate" this forum?

shawn474

steveinaz wrote: »

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how we as common users, are suppose to "moderate" this forum?

IMO, it's not a question of the users moderating the forum. I think it's more everyone taking accountability upon themselves to moderate their own behavior as it realtes to the forum and its rules.

devani

shawn474 wrote: »

IMO, it's not a question of the users moderating the forum. I think it's more everyone taking accountability upon themselves to moderate their own behavior as it realtes to the forum and its rules.

sure didn't happen here....

steveinaz

Shawn, IT HAS TO BE--because lack of moderation is the PROBLEM. That, and the lack of enforcement of the rules that we've had for a very long time.

Niether of these can be controlled by the common users of this board.

There, I said it.

shawn474

devani wrote: »

sure didn't happen here....

Not sure what you are getting at here. Enlighten me, please.

steveinaz

How can anyone argue that if the existing rules were actually enforced, that there would be any problems? Give up on the "we'll do better Polk Audio, we promise we will" crap, because that isn't going to happen. You cannot control other peoples behavior at the "user" level.

Now, we can dance around the truth all week, but that is the truth--like it or not. Don't ask me to fix something that I have ZERO capacity to fix.

DAGLJAM6

steveinaz wrote: »

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how we as common users, are suppose to "moderate" this forum?

Personally I don't think we can other than keeping ourselves in check, most other forums have significantly more moderators with the power to control the day to day posts, and do so (wouldn't wish that job on anyone). I would rather a post or series of posts be locked down or erased limiting the potential for flare ups that inevitably happen again and again. Heavy handed , sure, but the potential impact of this forum being shut down is a far bigger loss to me (long term) than a single or a few "going no where fast" threads.

AudioGenics

...change cannot be mandated or forced

steveinaz

At the forum level, sure it can. It's called warning, then banning. Those that refuse to change will be gone.

inspiredsports

jvc wrote: »

...change cannot be mandated or forced

A change in "belief" or "attitude" may not be mandated or forced, but a change in behavior certainly can be forced if an errant member's membership here is banned for a period of time or permanently.

I'm not an advocate of this as I'm all about rugged individualism and an self-control, but I'm just saying . . .

shawn474

steveinaz wrote: »

Don't ask me to fix something that I have ZERO capacity to fix.

We all definitely have the capacity to "fix" our own behavior. Beyond that, let the chips fall where they may. Whatever happens, happens. At least then those people will know they did what they could do heed Al's request and make this a better forum.

Like I said, I don't disagree that more moderators could help. I just don't think they will change the people who really are part of the problem.

Systems

steveinaz wrote: »

At the forum level, sure it can. It's called warning, then banning. Those that refuse to change will be gone.

There you go, a simple two step process...