Chrysler and GM Dealerships

Jstas

venomclan wrote: »

What is the point of this?

To get the reaction of those who feel but won't admit that it hits close to home.

kevhed72

I see alot of the previous posts are quoting JD Power and Associates for 2006 model ratings. If I were purchasing a new vehicle, I would base my decision on Consumer Reports ratings...I believe they do a more thorough job of rating several components of "quality", including reliability, fit and finish, etc. as well as quality of the cars' major components / systems, such as electrical,transmission, engine, etc.
Overall, I think Consumer Reports has the more-objective ratings...just my .02

venomclan

Jstas wrote: »

To get the reaction of those who feel but won't admit that it hits close to home.

What, that Toyota's are still man made, or that this is 30 years of incompetence coming home to roost?

concealer404

End result..... we don't buy Chrysler or GM products because we don't want to. Nobody cares that certain people are trying to force feed why they're "better" to us.

I don't think i'm about to start an inquisition of people who don't buy Toyota or Mazda, though.

Jstas

venomclan wrote: »

What, that Toyota's are still man made, or that this is 30 years of incompetence coming home to roost?

That doesn't make any sense.


At least I know who puts the tags in though.

Funny, you're one of the champions of imports IIRC and you make the same lame arguments when it's in your favor. Don't like it too much when the argument is presented to you though.

Jstas

Oh, one more thing, the American companies might have problems and recalls and such but at least they admit to them.

Toyota
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/11/toyota_auditor.html
http://njection.com/blogs/autoblog/archive/2009/03/12/video-toyota-grilled-over-possible-truck-recall-coverup.aspx
http://www.autospies.com/news/Is-It-Possible-Toyota-Knew-About-1-Million-Truck-Recall-Earlier-Than-Previously-Stated-41866/

Honda
http://www.hondatransmissionsettlement.com/php/login.php

Nissan
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070705/135387/
http://www.autosafety.org/1994-early-1995-nissan-air-bags-continues-jeopardize-passengers-nissan-government-must-act

Mitsubishi
http://www.mitsubishisucks.com/cars/scandals/clutch/
http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Irresponsible_manufacturers.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/23/business/mitsubishi-admits-to-broad-cover-up-of-auto-defects.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_41/b3702244.htm
http://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143049

I can keep going. Extends to some European manufacturers too.

concealer404

Sooo.... you don't think any of us could dig up anything like that on the Big 3? I want to hear/see you say it.

venomclan

Jstas wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense.
At least I know who puts the tags in though.

Funny, you're one of the champions of imports IIRC and you make the same lame arguments when it's in your favor. Don't like it too much when the argument is presented to you though.

First, I am not even aware of the argument you are trying to make, all you did was post a link on a Toyota that had starting problems.

Please also explain "champions of imports IIRC", I did not even know I was competing in something, let alone being a champion...

All the cars on my driveway were built in Ohio by Americans, with 70% US parts. Do you have a problem with that?

Whats in my favor? What is your argument, do you even know?

Jstas wrote: »

Oh, one more thing, the American companies might have problems and recalls and such but at least they admit to them.

Again, the links to just the FORD issues that have not been recalled will overload this server. You do not want to go there, trust me.

Let me know when you have something worthy to discuss.
Venom

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

Sooo.... you don't think any of us could dig up anything like that on the Big 3? I want to hear/see you say it.

Soooo....go ahead. Ford was accused of a cover up back in 2000 but after a federal investigation, they were cleared of wrong doing and the plaintiffs who sued, settled out of court on undisclosed terms. The other recall cover up attempt that I saw was from Firestone over a Firestone 500 tire that was used as a stock tire on Ford vehicles. Ford was implicated in that and accused of knowing more than they let on to. But it turned out that Ford had no hand in that dealing was implicated merely by association. Of course there is the 2000 Firestone/Explorer debacle. But most people never followed that story to completion. It went to court. Ford sued Firestone. Ford was cleared of wrong doing and Firestone was held responsible for not only the recall but breach of contract with Ford. Ford's recall was a gigantic "up yours" to Firestone when they recalled all Firestone tires and replaced them with General and Uniroyal tires just to spite Firestone.

The last GM recall cover up I could find info about was the C/K fuel tanks blowing up in an impact. GM was cleared when it was found that always credible source Dateline NBC rigged the trucks to blow up. But they settled out of court with the 4 lawsuits. However, the cover up accusations resulted from that other leviathan of credibility Kenneth Starr trying to cover up the fact that an expert witness perjured himself in the cases involving GM and the exploding gas tanks.

As far as Chrysler goes, the last recall debacle with them was from the Daimler AG years when the DCX association was in place. Since they held a controlling interest in Mitsubishi and Chrysler, Daimler-Chrysler AG was held responsible for the Mitsubishi cover ups. The only REAL implication for Chrysler was the fact that half of the cars they sold were affected by the Mitsubishi recall coverups because they were products of DCX collaboration. Prior to that, you have to go back to the pre-Iaccoca years to find any Chrysler cover ups.


There might be more that I'm missing but nothing that really stands out. Especially with stuff like GM implicated in a Lotus or Saab cover up or Ford in a Land Rover, Jaguar, Mazda, Volvo or Aston Martin cover up. But due to the fluctuations in years of ownership and levels of control, it's hard to pin down responsibility from those years. While those companies were part of a larger umbrella, they tended to work largely autonomously in engineering and design. I know there have been plenty of accusations but the accusations stemmed from lawsuits levied where a death was involved. The accusations were more like NHTSA investigations. Most if not all of those investigations came up empty and cleared the Big 3 of wrong doing. I haven't really heard of any that stuck. At least not since Nader started his antics in 1971 with the National Public Interests Association. Before that though, it's hard to verify and honestly, the companies are almost 40 years out on that stuff and not the same companies. The same goes with the foreign counterparts.

Jstas

venomclan wrote: »

First, I am not even aware of the argument you are trying to make, all you did was post a link on a Toyota that had starting problems.

Please also explain "champions of imports IIRC", I did not even know I was competing in something, let alone being a champion...

All the cars on my driveway were built in Ohio by Americans, with 70% US parts. Do you have a problem with that?

Whats in my favor? What is your argument, do you even know?

Jstas wrote: »

Oh, one more thing, the American companies might have problems and recalls and such but at least they admit to them.

Again, the links to just the FORD issues that have not been recalled will overload this server. You do not want to go there, trust me.

Let me know when you have something worthy to discuss.
Venom

First IIRC means If I Remember Correctly.

Second, yes, I do have a problem with you buying Toyotas or Hondas or Mercedes (if I recall, those are the only foreign makes with factories in Ohio)that were built in Ohio because you are rationalizing your purchase under the guise that they are American cars because an American assembled them. Possibly from parts made here, possibly not. But in the grand scheme of things, your foreign car's profits, the financial figure that counts because it is the bottom line and a measure of growth, is represented in Yen or Euro, not Dollars, U.S. That hurts the economy here and drives inflation here because it is still an imported good improving the bottom line of an off-shore interest. That causes the export to import ratios to change in the favor of other countries. That drives up inflation because we import more goods than we export. Then we wonder why the economy was riding a bubble and when it burst we have double digit unemployment figures.

The "world economy" is a bunch of horse ****. When we have a world currency and a world bank that all governments recognize and use the currency that institution creates then we will have a world economy. As long as there is a Dollar, Yen, Euro or whatever, there will be an exchange rate and a determination of value which begets a determination of wealth. But then again, if we did have a world bank and a world currency and a world economy, who would regulate it? Oh, yeah, the bankers. The same people who got us in to this mess to begin with. (doesn't include ALL bankers, just the irresponsible ones)

As far as recalls, every manufacturer has two types of recalls. Compulsory which are usually safety related and non-compulsory which are technical problems that affect multiple vehicles. An example of a compulsory recall would be a faulty airbag. The NHTSA would issue a case number and require a full, expensive and over-sighted recall at the manufacturer's expense. An example of a non-compulsory recall would be a faulty overhead lamp switch. This is not a safety issue and the manufacturer would not be required to issue a recall. They may chose to if they feel the negatives of ignoring the problem and just handling it on an individual basis would be cheaper and have less bad press. The manufacturer may even require the vehicle owner to cover the cost.

Now, if you are going to list numerous cases where consumers BELIEVE there should be a recall issued but there wasn't then, go ahead. But all the companies, U.S. and foreign alike have those. I can think of a few for Ford, Toyota, GM and Mercedes right now just off the top of my head. But if you are going to look for times when a compulsory recall should have been issued but wasn't (usually due to circumventing the laws and the NHTSA), go ahead. You're gonna have to dig real hard to find something significant for the Big 3 but the makes i already listed are quite readily available.

As far as what's in your favor, you're trying it now. You want to hold up every mistake any U.S. manufacturer ever made and use it as evidence that they are horrible companies with a horrible product meanwhile venerating your beloved imports. This comes out of a mere mention of the poor track record that the import companies might have and you feel the argument is invalid. Why? Because you feel the heinous acts committed by the Big 3 are so much worse. So, when the argument is in YOUR favor, there is nothing wrong with it. When the argument is not in your favor, it's a bunch of BS. It's a double standard and it's honestly a fallacy.

sucks2beme

Bottom line, most of the car companies are in the crapper.
It's case of how to handle it. We put money into these
guys to prevent them from filing, but in the end it was a wasted effort.
Kinda like throwing money at the banks. Most U.S. companies became
fearful of takeovers in the 80's and adapted a very lean "no asset, no
reserve" mode of operation. This means right now a lot of companies
don't have anything to go after if they default on a loan. Would you
lend them money from your pocket? The answer is no. And banks
are in no position to do it either. The closing of dealerships is
going to happen even if the big three didn't force it. There's going
to be a lot of empty storefronts by year's end. Bitching about it isn't going
to change that. And only the best run companies are going to make it.
Sadly, I think at least one of the big three is going down. Not a damn thing
anyone here can do to change it.

shadowofnight

" Feds Wind Up Ford Engine Fire Probe with Massive Recall
Ford Stalled for Years While Trucks Burned "

" The truck fires destroyed lives, houses and trucks while Ford appeared to resist a recall to repair the faulty switches until confronted with overwhelming evidence by federal regulators. Even with the recall, most consumers whose trucks caught fire will never receive compensation matching their losses. "

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/08/nhtsa_ford_fires.html


The only reason I remembered this particular recall distinctly from a couple of years back was a cousin of mine was really pissed because his truck was involved in the recall, but they were out of stock of the parts needed for the repair.

The almighty dollar governs every single recall from every single manufacturer....no one company hides them better, nor do any of them volunteer faster to do a recall.

Is it going to hurt us ( Cost to implement the recall... labor/partsetc ) more now....or later ( Lawsuits..etc ) I loved Ed Nortons explaination in Fight Club...

" A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one "


My Nissan Titan almost had that " rear differential locks up " scenario....Nissan installed differentials that couldnt handle the horsepower of their new all aluminum V8...it was eating them up at a huge rate. Mine ate itself up at 17K miles.....they ( Well Dana actually...but Nissan used it ) installed a tiny 2 spider gear setup with a huge ring and pinion. Dana redesigned it with 4 spider gears and the diff failures disappeared....but if you had an 04-05 ( Some early 06's ) with the 2 spider gear set it wasnt if you were going to have the failure but when.

Nissan didnt just repair the diff....they just swapped out the entire rear end all the way out to the lug nuts. Problem was up until mid 06 you were just getting another 2 spider gear set :mad:

I said screw that...when mine grenaded....Nissan installed an entire new diff/axle assy and my first drive was to Sacramento to have a new limited slip differential installed...making the rear end bullet proof now.



Hell, I even had 2 brand new motorcycles try and buck me off because of recall issues....one ( A Honda no less ) had water mixed with the brake fluid in the rear brake system only ( How they managed that who knows ) and heat/expansion caused the rear wheel to lock at 50 or so miles an hour...talk about WTF Not only did they replace the master cylinder/line/caliper/disc...I made them replace the tire as well

The other ( A Yamaha ) came with too short a rear brake line...pulled off the barb and coated rear wheel with B fluid...nice. Rear brakes on bikes have it out for me because I almost never use them...2 fingers on the front brake baby


So yeah...seen my fair share of recalls....happens to all the manuf....just a part of electro-mechanical life.

kevhed72

Second, yes, I do have a problem with you buying Toyotas or Hondas or Mercedes (if I recall, those are the only foreign makes with factories in Ohio)that were built in Ohio because you are rationalizing your purchase under the guise that they are American cars because an American assembled them.

So let me get this straight...the downfall of the Big 3 is due in some part because folks like us who refuse to purchase their vehicles because of the quality issues. Last time I checked, we have a market-driven economy. It is not our fault the Big 3 cannot compete on quality. It is the fault of the upper management of the Big 3 - not the blue-collar folks actually building them, but all those VP types who should have listened to Edward Deming way back when.

That hurts the economy here and drives inflation here because it is still an imported good improving the bottom line of an off-shore interest. That causes the export to import ratios to change in the favor of other countries. That drives up inflation because we import more goods than we export.

I'm going to have to research the increase in imports / inflation correlation...not sure about that one, but I may be wrong. I don't also believe this country has seen any significant inflation in the past 20 years or so.

I would love to purchase an American - owned company's car, but I refuse to do so out of nostalgia, guilt, or sense of "patriotism". Build a quality product, and people will buy it.

Jstas

That "engine fire" recall wasn't "hidden". It wasn't for the engine either. It was the cruise control deactivation switch. They stopped putting them in trucks mid way through 2001. They went back to 1996. Ford replaced all the ones from June '01 all the way back to April 1996. Those were the offending units. The Feds felt that Ford needed to replace all the units up to 2004 when they switched to a completely different unit.

I know this because my truck was directly involved in the recall. When I asked to see the parts of what was replaced, the dealer had swapped out my factory part for the exact same part number, only new. The service rep told me that Ford found and fixed the problem back in late 2000 and remedied it with a TSB because the failures were only happening in extreme climate conditions and even then 1 in like 10,000 vehicles had the issue.

The Feds said that since the design was the same but used a different membrane, they wanted it change anyway. Ford saw no need since it had already been fixed. That is what the fight was about and Ford didn't want to waste the money and time because they didn't have the something like 8 million + switches available. I went for over a year and a half without cruise control because of that. My truck didn't even need it because it was built in August of '01.



I remember the Nissan Titan problems. A guy at work almost got killed when his Titan locked up the rear axle at 80 MPH on the highway. Truck rolled 7 times after it skidded into the center barrier. Ford had a similar problem with the 7.5" axles and ended up just replacing the entire rear end also instead of paying dealers to rebuild axle housings.

Hillbilly61

I'm confident with domestic brands and their quality. A lot of what has gotten them into financial trouble lay with obligations concerning pensions and retiree healthcare that none of the foreign brands are dealing with. It just cannot be afforded anymore and to remain competitive.

My elderly widowed aunt is a benficiary of this system. Her husband was a 30+ year member of the UAW and his retiree benefits were passed on to her (she never worked after marrying, just like most women of the era). Thank God for it. Without it, she would be profoundly destitute. With it, Social Security - his and Medicare, she lives a modest but comfortable old age.

The foreign brands do not offer such long term benefits to their employees and without that financial burden can remain profitable over the long run. Since importing their plants into the U.S.A. this lack of coverage to long term employees have been imported here, while defeating any tarrifs that may be imposed.

Concerning the current situation of dealerships being idled, I am in the market for a new Chrysler vehicle from a dealer that will be out of a franchise come June 9th. These folks have to unload their inventory by then or will be signifcantly disadvantaged with moving the rest of their inventory without rebates, etc.

Yep, I am being opportunistic. In the same vein, if I did not believe in the quality build and long term support from the mfgr, I wouldn't be moving either. The money dropped for a new mid class vehicle of ANY make or model is simply too much to put into junk.

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

Soooo....go ahead. Ford was accused of a cover up back in 2000 but after a federal investigation, they were cleared of wrong doing and the plaintiffs who sued, settled out of court on undisclosed terms. The other recall cover up attempt that I saw was from Firestone over a Firestone 500 tire that was used as a stock tire on Ford vehicles. Ford was implicated in that and accused of knowing more than they let on to. But it turned out that Ford had no hand in that dealing was implicated merely by association. Of course there is the 2000 Firestone/Explorer debacle. But most people never followed that story to completion. It went to court. Ford sued Firestone. Ford was cleared of wrong doing and Firestone was held responsible for not only the recall but breach of contract with Ford. Ford's recall was a gigantic "up yours" to Firestone when they recalled all Firestone tires and replaced them with General and Uniroyal tires just to spite Firestone.

The last GM recall cover up I could find info about was the C/K fuel tanks blowing up in an impact. GM was cleared when it was found that always credible source Dateline NBC rigged the trucks to blow up. But they settled out of court with the 4 lawsuits. However, the cover up accusations resulted from that other leviathan of credibility Kenneth Starr trying to cover up the fact that an expert witness perjured himself in the cases involving GM and the exploding gas tanks.

As far as Chrysler goes, the last recall debacle with them was from the Daimler AG years when the DCX association was in place. Since they held a controlling interest in Mitsubishi and Chrysler, Daimler-Chrysler AG was held responsible for the Mitsubishi cover ups. The only REAL implication for Chrysler was the fact that half of the cars they sold were affected by the Mitsubishi recall coverups because they were products of DCX collaboration. Prior to that, you have to go back to the pre-Iaccoca years to find any Chrysler cover ups.


There might be more that I'm missing but nothing that really stands out. Especially with stuff like GM implicated in a Lotus or Saab cover up or Ford in a Land Rover, Jaguar, Mazda, Volvo or Aston Martin cover up. But due to the fluctuations in years of ownership and levels of control, it's hard to pin down responsibility from those years. While those companies were part of a larger umbrella, they tended to work largely autonomously in engineering and design. I know there have been plenty of accusations but the accusations stemmed from lawsuits levied where a death was involved. The accusations were more like NHTSA investigations. Most if not all of those investigations came up empty and cleared the Big 3 of wrong doing. I haven't really heard of any that stuck. At least not since Nader started his antics in 1971 with the National Public Interests Association. Before that though, it's hard to verify and honestly, the companies are almost 40 years out on that stuff and not the same companies. The same goes with the foreign counterparts.

You just did my leg work for me. Thanks for admitting that you can't say that the Big 3 haven't had anything like that. Your post on that subject is now null and void.

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

As far as what's in your favor, you're trying it now. You want to hold up every mistake any U.S. manufacturer ever made and use it as evidence that they are horrible companies with a horrible product meanwhile venerating your beloved imports. This comes out of a mere mention of the poor track record that the import companies might have and you feel the argument is invalid. Why? Because you feel the heinous acts committed by the Big 3 are so much worse. So, when the argument is in YOUR favor, there is nothing wrong with it. When the argument is not in your favor, it's a bunch of BS. It's a double standard and it's honestly a fallacy.

I'm still trying to figure out how you're not doing the same thing to "prove" that foreign companies are terrible. Either i'm too dumb to figure it out, or you just can't realize the hypocrisy here.

concealer404

Second, yes, I do have a problem with you buying Toyotas or Hondas or Mercedes (if I recall, those are the only foreign makes with factories in Ohio)that were built in Ohio because you are rationalizing your purchase under the guise that they are American cars because an American assembled them.

I don't give a **** if you have a problem with it. I'm buying it, not you. You buy what you want/like. I'll buy what i want, like. I don't care what you buy, why do you get to have a problem with what other people buy? It's a market driven business. Deal with it. We aren't socialists.

Knucklehead

kevhed72 wrote: »

I would love to purchase an American - owned company's car, but I refuse to do so out of nostalgia, guilt, or sense of "patriotism". Build a quality product, and people will buy it.

respectfully, you say you read/listen to consumer reports...look how many cars Ford alone has as "reccomended", I will say unfotunatley Dodge, Chrysler brand is lacking in that dept, but im sure if you really wanted to buy American you could find a quality car that suites your taste. Im not knocking the imports, they do build good cars but if you are worrying about a quality product, they are right here in America as well.

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah...

:rolleyes:

You're an idiot. Thanks for playing, have a nice day.

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

:rolleyes:

You're an idiot. Thanks for playing, have a nice day.

Sounds like someone has no real response! Did i win the game? I'm going to steal your cookies. Maybe your lollipop, too.

venomclan

QUOTE] First IIRC means If I Remember Correctly.

Second, yes, I do have a problem with you buying Toyotas or Hondas or Mercedes (if I recall, those are the only foreign makes with factories in Ohio)that were built in Ohio because you are rationalizing your purchase under the guise that they are American cars because an American assembled them.

I am under no guise, I buy the better product from the company I trust the most, I would buy it if made in Japan also.

Possibly from parts made here, possibly not. But in the grand scheme of things, your foreign car's profits, the financial figure that counts because it is the bottom line and a measure of growth, is represented in Yen or Euro, not Dollars, U.S. That hurts the economy here and drives inflation here because it is still an imported good improving the bottom line of an off-shore interest. That causes the export to import ratios to change in the favor of other countries. That drives up inflation because we import more goods than we export. Then we wonder why the economy was riding a bubble and when it burst we have double digit unemployment figures.

So what you are saying is, the product does not have to be good or what you want, as long as it is made by a company currently owned by an American or "American" conglomerate? That makes no sense and is why the big 3 failed. They laughed at Toyota once and sat on their ****. Currently the $US is weak, helping our export structure. These are publically traded companies, that can change ownership at any time. Chrysler was owned bu a German company for the last 13 years, would you still but one? Ford conotinues to build cars in Mexico and is building new plants there. Would you still buy a Ford if not made in America?

The "world economy" is a bunch of horse ****. When we have a world currency and a world bank that all governments recognize and use the currency that institution creates then we will have a world economy. As long as there is a Dollar, Yen, Euro or whatever, there will be an exchange rate and a determination of value which begets a determination of wealth. But then again, if we did have a world bank and a world currency and a world economy, who would regulate it? Oh, yeah, the bankers. The same people who got us in to this mess to begin with. (doesn't include ALL bankers, just the irresponsible ones)

I agree that free trade is not fair trade. But how does that factor into the big 3 making garbage for 30 years? GM already apologized for the crap they admitted they made. Only you are in denial.

As far as recalls, every manufacturer has two types of recalls. Compulsory which are usually safety related and non-compulsory which are technical problems that affect multiple vehicles. An example of a compulsory recall would be a faulty airbag. The NHTSA would issue a case number and require a full, expensive and over-sighted recall at the manufacturer's expense. An example of a non-compulsory recall would be a faulty overhead lamp switch. This is not a safety issue and the manufacturer would not be required to issue a recall. They may chose to if they feel the negatives of ignoring the problem and just handling it on an individual basis would be cheaper and have less bad press. The manufacturer may even require the vehicle owner to cover the cost.

Lexus was built from the result of a recall. Every company has recalls. Big 3 are not immune, by far.

Now, if you are going to list numerous cases where consumers BELIEVE there should be a recall issued but there wasn't then, go ahead. But all the companies, U.S. and foreign alike have those. I can think of a few for Ford, Toyota, GM and Mercedes right now just off the top of my head. But if you are going to look for times when a compulsory recall should have been issued but wasn't (usually due to circumventing the laws and the NHTSA), go ahead. You're gonna have to dig real hard to find something significant for the Big 3 but the makes i already listed are quite readily available.

As far as what's in your favor, you're trying it now. You want to hold up every mistake any U.S. manufacturer ever made and use it as evidence that they are horrible companies with a horrible product meanwhile venerating your beloved imports.

I don't love imports, I love Honda's because they break down the least. When my Corvette and SS's were in the shop, I drove my Honda. In the winter, my V8's were coocooned while my trusty Honda never failed. When I worked for Chevy and drove every GM car made at the time, my Honda kept going. As my family worked for Chrysler and Ford dealerships for decades, it was my Honda that beat them all. I have brken down by more big vehicles, than you have ever driven. So who are you trying to convince again?

This comes out of a mere mention of the poor track record that the import companies might have and you feel the argument is invalid. Why? Because you feel the heinous acts committed by the Big 3 are so much worse. So, when the argument is in YOUR favor, there is nothing wrong with it. When the argument is not in your favor, it's a bunch of BS. It's a double standard and it's honestly a fallacy.

No fallacy. Everything the big 3 did were not bad, but many were. Eventually one gives up and gets tired of repairs and excuses hding behind false patriotism. There are many factors today against the big 3, many of them their own fault. The CEO's who did it are long gone, with golden parachutes.
They admitted, why can't you?
Venom

sucks2beme

I like to buy American when I can. I have never owned a Japanese car.
I owned a Volkswagon for a couple of years in the early 80's, nothing
very special about that car. I don't get that excited about German
engineering. Good fit and finish, but that's about it. I now own a couple of
Ford/Mercury products, all v8 rear wheel drive. I work on my own, so I
know what's built right, and what's not. Son#1 was a Toyota/Lexus
mechanic for a while, and also worked as an underwriter at an extended
warranty company. HE did the research and set rates for warranties.
A lot of the newer small domestics from Ford and GM have matched the
classic Corolla for dependability. But the big three have a long way to go
accross the product lines. Chrysler just needs a full top to bottom overhaul.
But Nissan and Toyota have had their problems , too. Especially in full size
vehicles. And everyone is in trouble but Hyndai and Kia. Seems we still
buy CHEAP vehicles, even when times are tough.

shack

I currently own 3 Fords, a Honda and a VW. The Honda has 60K miles on the OD, the Fords have 80K, 121K and 185K and the VW 125K. All have been excellent cars and very reliable. I would not hesitate to by another vehicle from any of these mfgs. The Fords are as good as the Japanese and German cars in every respect that matters IMO. In fact...based on cost to buy, repair and maintain...the Fords are superior.

engtaz

concealer404 wrote: »

Sounds like someone has no real response! Did i win the game? I'm going to steal your cookies. Maybe your lollipop, too.

If your looking to argue with someone have a PM war.

concealer404

engtaz wrote: »

If your looking to argue with someone have a PM war.

Nah, not looking to argue. Just laughing a little at the lack of response to valid points made.

I'm cool. I'll jump out of the thread.

ben62670

wingnut4772 wrote: »

We didn't start the fire.....

HeHe nothing like a little Billy Joel:)





pssst buy American. Dollars going out of the country and not coming back is a bad thing:(

treitz3

ben62670 wrote: »

pssst buy American. Dollars going out of the country and not coming back is a bad thing:(

Now, that's a good point.

Kex

ben62670 wrote: »

... Dollars going out of the country and not coming back is a bad thing:(

Setting the Japan question aside for a moment, I wonder if more European cars are sold here (measured in units and/or value) than American cars in Europe. GM (Opel, Vauxhall) and Ford are both quite successful over there. I would hasard a guess that GM and Ford both have a much larger market share (%) of the non-luxury market in several European countries than Volkswagen does here. How things would add up when you also consider MBZ and BMW, I don't know, since there aren't any remotely successful luxury U.S. brands there that I have noticed. And how are we supposed to tally Volvo and Saab? Are they considered European or American at this point?

Kex

Just a quick note: I wish the person (or persons) putting those childish and meaningless tags on this thread would just remove them, or add some useful ones. Tags really could be an excellent search tool, identifying threads with the same topic with a single click of the mouse, if they weren't used for insults and jokes.