I Love SL2000 Tweeters
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Not to leave the sl3000 out, I put one in the right 2b with the cap attached and I couldn't tell any difference between it and the 194 w/cap.
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They used to be very entertaining to me so one of two things have occured: The caps need refreshing or I have moved up the food chain and these components sound the same as the day I bought them. I think that the caps need refreshing.
I agree with your analysis (above). What I have learned is that my "sonic memory" is very poor. It is very easy to "move up the food chain" and forget that the old ones sound exactly the same. That is why I am no fan at all of subjective listening to evaluate a change. If it isn't measurable, it isn't real. -
Ron super simple. Take two different amps with the same specs, and they both will not sound the same. Take two CD players with the same specs, and they will not sound the same. Measuring something is not going to tell you what is better. Audio, food, clothes, nearly anything on this planet(or yours). Keep up the good work. I appreciate a good laugh.
BTW
I am not that impressed with the components in the LSI series speakers. I would definitely mod the caps.
What you are describing is normal production variation. No two models of anything are completely identical. There is always variation.
I've never owned or listened to an LSi speaker. I did see one once in a show-room, and I wasn't particularly impressed with its construction. I had already set my sights on Thiels when the LSi was introduced. Never even gave it a shot.
I would HATE to have to upgrade a Thiel crossover. There are 155 components on each cross-over board (very complicated x-over design). I doubt that Jim Thiel would have selected a 155 element cross-over if all the caps needed upgrading every decade. -
I would HATE to have to upgrade a Thiel crossover. There are 155 components on each cross-over board (very complicated x-over design). I doubt that Jim Thiel would have selected a 155 element cross-over if all the caps needed upgrading every decade.
I bet if you bought your Thiel's 20 or more years ago Jim would be more than happy to make some recommendations to "refresh" the x-over and I bet it would sound even better.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
It hardly seems possible that they could sound better.
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Ron,
Your a bright guy and I bet you could do the upgrade to the Thiel's and if you can't just give them to me for awhile and I will do it. I may even return them after the break-in period in this case may take a couple of years. 155 element x-over would be fun maybe I should go buy a pair.
On a serious side, I bet if you upgraded the crossovers on the Thiels they would sound better than they currently do. Thats why they call it a upgrade. I had an upgraded room in Atlantic City last week and that was real nice, upgrades are great. -
It hardly seems possible that they could sound better.
Yes they can. There is always a way to have better sound. I have learned that over the past year I have been a member of Club Polk
drew -
What you are describing is normal production variation. No two models of anything are completely identical. There is always variation.
You seem to have an on going problem with reading comprehension.
Ben didn't say compare the same model amps from the same company, he said compare two different amps with the same specs. Now, if said company is producing a line of gear and two of the exact same model sound different from each other, they have a serious quality control problem.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
It hardly seems possible that they could sound better.
You have 20 year old Thiel's?? I thought you said your's were newer. Plus, I'm sure you've compared said 20 year old Thiel's with the old caps vs. the same 20 year old Thiel's with new caps to to base your opinion."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Ron I'm sure your local college offers reading comprehension classes, you seriously should enroll. You read things into peoples posts that just aren't there and no amount of logical deduction can possibly make the leaps you do in your responses.
H9
P.s. I'm being stone cold serious here, no pot shot's at all. Dead serious!"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Ron: I don't need much sonic memory. I can hook up the old pre or power amp right next to my new stuff today, and do a quick comparison. If it sounded better than my newer stuff, I would not hesitate to use it.
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I sold all my SL 2000's and I am about to sell some more. No going back for me.I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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You read things into peoples posts that just aren't there and no amount of logical deduction can possibly make the leaps you do in your responses.
You mean like the time he thought he read into Sona's posts that she wanted a knight in shining armor to rescue her from the TBT only to end up with a slap in the face. Like that?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You have 20 year old Thiel's?? I thought you said your's were newer. Plus, I'm sure you've compared said 20 year old Thiel's with the old caps vs. the same 20 year old Thiel's with new caps to to base your opinion.
Nope... my Thiels are new to me. All the drivers in them have been replaced by Thiel just a few months before I got them (with receipts). But, I'm still working with that old worn-out, 20 year old cross-over that sounds absolutely perfect. Also, they have been refinished so they look new too.
Wouldn't think of changing out components in the cross-over. It takes the cross-over a full decade to "break-in". Otherwise, when coupled with Krell, they'll make your ears bleed. Like a fine wine, I will listen to no Thiel speaker before its time.
Seriously, all my electronics are 20 years old. I need that much "wait time" until I can afford them on the used market. The caps in them sound just fine (and, I would venture to say, much better than most peoples new stuff). -
You mean like the time he thought he read into Sona's posts that she wanted a knight in shining armor to rescue her from the TBT only to end up with a slap in the face. Like that?
Yep... just like that. Never underestimate a lunatic. -
Ron I'm sure your local college offers reading comprehension classes, you seriously should enroll. You read things into peoples posts that just aren't there and no amount of logical deduction can possibly make the leaps you do in your responses.
H9
P.s. I'm being stone cold serious here, no pot shot's at all. Dead serious!
I'll be sure to sign up for "reading comprehension" right after I finish that course in sheep herding. Those silly sheep will walk right off a cliff into the abyss left unattended. -
On a serious side, I bet if you upgraded the crossovers on the Thiels they would sound better than they currently do. Thats why they call it a upgrade.
If I could upgrade a Thiel, I'd be a very talented guy. -
Where's the guy who pops up at just the right time & says,
"I like pie!"
We need him right now!"Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." Bob Seger -
This works too:Studies also show that those that don't know, don't know.
BDT"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
There actually is a name for that, it's called "White Knight Syndrome".You mean like the time he thought he read into Sona's posts that she wanted a knight in shining armor to rescue her from the TBT only to end up with a slap in the face. Like that?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I can understand replacing a broken tweeter. And, I can even understand "upgrading the tweeter" with a Polk-approved replacement.
But, when you decide that you are better equipped to select a source component than Polk Audio engineering, you are a little bit "out there". Sure, there are better components available. But, at the same time, the ones that they selected are "engineered" for the system.
Awwww man...are we back to this again? We went over all this with K-Spec a few months ago.
Ron, as a mechanical engineer, you should know that any commercially offered engineering design has tradeoffs between cost and performance. Sometimes an optimum part is not selected due to cost or supply issues. It is the same principle as building a house from a set of blueprints. If a house is framed in steal beams rather than lumber, and uses cinder block exterior walls rather than lapboard, which implementation will be more impervious to hurricane and termite damage, although functionally and aesthetically, they appear identical?
I did my first SDA mod after consultation with Polk Audio engineering. There was nothing "wrong" with the original crossover parts Polk selected. However, the full design performance potential could be realized with an implementation in better parts.
I just don't understand why the desire for improved performance is mistaken for an indictment of Polk's design.My Monitor 10's sound fabulous with their stock cross-over. Could they sound better... perhaps. But, then they really wouldn't be Polk Audio Monitor 10's would they.
Wow. You are confusing a change in components with a change in design.:rolleyes: If I put a Ferrari engine in a Ford Taurus, would the Taurus still be a Taurus? Sure it would. It would just be a Taurus with a Ferrari engine. See how many chicks you pull with the Ferrari enhanced Taurus. If medical science figured out how to transplant a pig's heart into a man's chest, would the man become a pig? How ludicrous. All a crossover does is filter frequencies and route them to the appropriate driver, hopefully with a minimum of induced noise and distortion. A better quality crossover simply passes a cleaner signal to the drivers.I trust Polk Audio to do things right the first time.
You are the first engineer I have seen state something like this. This statement, taken to its illogical conclusion, means that there is no room for improvement. However, the five generations of SDA's would seem to indicate that Polk felt there was room for improvement. From Gen 1 through Gen 5, there were improvements in cabinet structure, crossover design, drivers, tweeters, SDA interconnects, and aesthetics. The crossover parts quality remained the same, except for an improved polyswitch. However, according to Polk engineering, the lack of evolution to higher quality film capacitors was due to their limited availability and high cost rather than there being no need for improvement. Indeed, I was specifically advised, by a Polk engineer, that the greatest modification improvement would be gained by replacing the mylar film and electrolytic capacitors with polypropylene film capacitors. I didn't do any post modification laboratory measurements, but my ears told me I had done a very good thing.;)It would be silly (and incredibly egotistical) to purchase speakers thinking... "Not bad... but, if you swap out the tweeters, re-wire it with silver-wire, change the binding posts to vampires, and replace every capacitor with Sonicaps, re-stuff it with cotton-balls instead of poly-fill, and change the grill fabric... then, it will make an incredible difference and be a "giant killer".
Tweakers. Gotta love em.
Hot rodders buy stock vehicles with every intention of transforming them into giant killers. Some of them buy the mod parts prior to buying the vehicle. Are they being silly and egotistical? I don't think so. They are performance oriented auto enthusiasts pursuing a hobby at a particular level.
I have stated many times how the audio enthusiast in unfairly and unjustifiably looked upon as some weird freak, but hobbiests in other fields, who may even spend way more money, are looked upon as normal. Say, for example, the guy who collects Rolex watches. Some Rolex enthusiasts are not content to collect the stock watches. They have to send them to a custom jeweler for cosmetic and functional enhancements and modifications. Sometimes the modifications cost more than the stock watch. Hey, if that makes them feel special, go for it.I just think that the x-over tweakers are hopeless audiophiles that make design decisions without the benefit of facts or data. This isn't science. This is just a grape kool-aide phenomina.
If this statement were coming from a credible source, it might give one pause for reflection.I have owned about 8 SL2000's, and 2 of them sounded great! I replaced them with the RDO's, and I liked the two SL2000's more than the RDO194's. The nasty peak is at 12k. Please feel free to play that with a signal generator. It is very faint, and any music that reaches into 12k is so brief you would hardly notice it. No voices extend into that range. Very few guitar notes will touch that range, and it won't be the main part of the note, just the harmonics.
Some instruments and female voices have significant harmonic energy in the upper frequency ranges.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Very nice post DK as usual. However, Ron doesn't respond to logic. It doesn't equate in his world. Plus, as you know, he'll take everything your wrote completely out of context and relate it to something that has no significance or relevance on the discussion at hand.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Developing a better speaker is more than just randomly replacing components with different ones and saying...uhm.. I think it sounds better now. Why not just purchase a better, higher-end speaker than modifying a factory one?
I would never buy a speaker based upon the fact it had been "upgraded". Instead, I'd be highly suspicious that the tweaker screwed up the original design intent (i.e. Frankenpolks)
Here is my experience with upgrading:
When I purchased my Monitor 10's from Scott Trigg (wangotango), all four 6-1/2" drivers were generic parts-express $7 drivers. So, I immediately called Polk Audio and had four MW6503's shipped to me for $48each.
I listened to these el-cheapo drivers for a few days until the MW6503's arrived. And, surprisingly, they didn't sound too bad. The 6503's sounded better... but, the cheap generics sounded ok.
I then upgraded the tweeters from the SL2500 to the RDO's. BIG IMPROVEMENT. The SL2500's were awful sounding. -
H9,
I realize that Ron and his circular, sixth dimensional logic, is for entertainment purposes only and that he thrives on the attention his off the wall comments generate. It's fun...up to a point.:)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Very nice post DK as usual. However, Ron doesn't respond to logic. It doesn't equate in his world. Plus, as you know, he'll take everything your wrote completely out of context and relate it to something that has no significance or relevance on the discussion at hand.
H9
Kiss my hiney, heiney. -
My daily "sport" quota has been fulfilled and I can not respond to any further sixth dimensional type posts. Maybe tomorrow...if I feel like it.
I'm off to the gym now. Nite Nite.:)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
:eek:Nelson Pass is wrong.
Measurements can tell a great deal about a design and help an engineer to improve on things like signal-noise,THD etc. but at best it is a 2D view of a 3D event.Measurements can't tell you how a particular piece of electronics will actually sound.Everything can be measured and absolutely nothing is subjective about accurately reproducing an audio signal.Testing
Testing
Testing -
Ron,
I will have a pair of upgraded/updated crossovers for Monitor 10's with-in a few weeks or so, I will burn them in first. If they are a perfect match to swap out in your Monitor 10's will you try them? I will mail them to you at my cost for your evaluation and you can compare them to the "stock" x-over Monitor 10's. I have no question that you will be fair in your evaluation.
Maybe this is a stretch but I think it could be interesting.
Drew -
If medical science figured out how to transplant a pig's heart into a man's chest, would the man become a pig?
No. But medical science did figure out how to replace a defective human heart valve with a pigs heart valve, aka, porcine valve. These porcine valves have good durability and usually last for 10 to 15 years. Almost the same amount of time before the caps need to be replaced on your Polks.
Upgrade the caps!SDA SRS 2.3TL's
Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
SDA 2B TL's -
Onk OnkI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
This discussion has been closed.