I Love SL2000 Tweeters

Systems

jakelm wrote: »

Instead of adding, I would have just pulled the XO out and changed the value of the HP cap and resistor to attenuate where I liked it..

Yes that would be a better approach.

Is there a link to a diagram of this crossover?

Does this crossover have a shunt inductor after the 12uf and before the mystery 1uf cap?If so then you have created a third order hi pass filter,but it it is nowhere near the theoretical component values one would expect.The second cap is usually larger than the first.This config is back a**wards.If there is no shunt coil (from pos to neg)then you really have problems.As Jake suggested you will have a big suck out between the mid and tweet.Either way I can't see how this cap is doing you any good at all.

candyliquor35m

I tried a 1.0mfd today but it wasn't strong enough. A 2.0 or 2.2mfd sounds better to me.

Disc Jockey

GV#27 wrote: »

Yes that would be a better approach.

Is there a link to a diagram of this crossover?

all sda crossovers are here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55888

nms

To update my previous post: the SL2000s suck for anything but symphonic, orchestral, and organ music. That is all.

jakelm

GV#27 wrote: »

Yes that would be a better approach.

Is there a link to a diagram of this crossover?

Does this crossover have a shunt inductor after the 12uf and before the mystery 1uf cap?If so then you have created a third order hi pass filter,but it it is nowhere near the theoretical component values one would expect.The second cap is usually larger than the first.This config is back a**wards.If there is no shunt coil (from pos to neg)then you really have problems.As Jake suggested you will have a big suck out between the mid and tweet.Either way I can't see how this cap is doing you any good at all.

Yep....

candyliquor35m

I'm lucky enough to have a local place to go buy caps and such without having to wait on shipping: http://epohouston.com/index.htm

OldmanSRS

I know EPO well, being an ex-Houstonian. Tell Dan hello if he's not retired yet.

candyliquor35m

I may have talked to him yesterday on the phone. I didn't catch the name. They were out of the caps I've been using.

candyliquor35m

After about a week I finally got the new 2.3's unloaded from the pathfinder and the old ones loaded hopefully to sell next weekend.

I hooked them up and was pleasantly surprised at how impressive the stock sl2000 tweeters are. Lively and robust with just a slight amount of brightness.

Since I had good luck on the old pair with upgrading the sl2000 tweeter to the sl2000wc tweeter by installing a 2.2 uf (mfd), 250 v mylar cap on their positive terminal and had 3 extra ones laying around, I didn't have anything to lose for trying them in the right speaker since I'm right handed

After the install, the right speaker sounded less bright of course but when I compared it to the left speaker, I could tell the vocals/mids weren't as full and rich sounding as they were in the left speaker.

Hmmm, not good. I don't want to lose anything except the bright highs if possible. I listen for a few more days to make sure and keep hearing the same veil of darkness over the right speaker. I go buy 1.0 uf (mfd) 250 v mylar caps and install them which seemed to help very little.

I focus on the tweeters cupping my hand around each one and then putting my ear up to my cupped hands to make sure I'm only hearing one tweeter at a time.

I notice the middle tweeter is diminished the most. On the uncapped middle tweeter in the left speaker when I cup my hands around it and listen, it's deafening and nearly ear drum shattering. The 2 other tweeters aren't as bright sounding so this gives me an idea to remove the caps on those 2 tweeters in the right speaker which I do.

I listen to the right speaker and compare it to the left and notice the vocals and mids are rich and full again in the right speaker but the brightness is still gone which is the goal.

I'm confident enough to go ahead and cap the middle tweeter on the left speaker and wallah after a song or 2, the new 2.3's sound as good or better than the old 2.3's that had caps on all the tweeters.

Conclusion: nothing concrete without further investigating another day and time. Maybe my new 2.3's weren't as bright to begin with so only the middle tweeter needed capped. This could be explained by a weak or worn polyswitch that needs replaced or bypassed. Maybe I didn't do enough side by side testing on my old 2.3's to notice the diminished vocals and mids. Lots of maybes since I don't know the history of the new 2.3's. Maybe they have had some x-over work done to them. Maybe the 2 pairs of x-overs have aged differently.

I'm not going to unload the old 2.3's to listen to them again but I can investigate the new pair further.

I can't even remember if I bypassed the polyswitches on the old pair. I don't think so. I did on my 2b's and srs's but that's all I think.

I left the 1.0 uf caps installed for now and may leave them in permanently unless I start to notice any brightness but so far little or no indication of that. But to make sure I should install a 2.2 uf in the right speaker since I'm right handed so I can do a side by side comp.

hearingimpared

Aren't you killing other musically necessary high frequencies with that 2.2 uf cap?

candyliquor35m

Yes and no

My guess is each tweeter has a different crossover point to control its frequencies. This can be confirmed by looking at the schematic.

So based on my testing the middle tweeter gets fed the highest frequencies so that's why I need the cap on it to lower its db's (that's the yes part).

By not capping the other 2 tweeters which are being fed lower frequencies by the x-over, I'm not changing their db's and not affecting any frequencies except the highs (that's the no part).

On these I was able to use a 1.0 cap so far until I can do further testing.

I forgot to mention that my jaw is still on the floor with disbelief in how good they sound. I never thought I would say this but now they sound better than my 2b's which I thought were untoppable. I listened to DF Nightly about 4-5 times in a row. I only turned it off because it was getting late so not to disturb my neighbors.

ben62670

hearingimpared wrote: »

Aren't you killing other musically necessary high frequencies with that 2.2 uf cap?

Well I don't agree with it, but at that rating he is wacking the high frequencies at about 10-14k with that cap there. To much high detail to be lost just to smooth a peak at 12k I don't recommend it. If he enjoys it great, but I think it is bad advice to recommend putting caps in there like that. The 1uf's shouldn't do a thing that we should be able to hear(above 20k). Just another component. To each his own.

Ben

ben62670

candyliquor35m wrote: »

Yes and no

My guess is each tweeter has a different crossover point to control its frequencies. This can be confirmed by looking at the schematic.

So based on my testing the middle tweeter gets fed the highest frequencies so that's why I need the cap on it to lower its db's (that's the yes part).

By not capping the other 2 tweeters which are being fed lower frequencies by the x-over, I'm not changing their db's and not affecting any frequencies except the highs (that's the no part).

On these I was able to use a 1.0 cap so far until I can do further testing.

Yes.

Yes. Maybe a resistor. Not a cap. A resistor would throw the rest of the XO off slightly.

Last statement kinda correct.
The DB usage here is improper. Caps don't drop DB's , but limit how high a driver goes.

avguytx

You're not changing the "db's"...you're changing the crossover point. A resistor changes (attenuates) the output.

But this is a moot topic.

candyliquor35m

ben62670 wrote: »

Yes.

Yes. Maybe a resistor. Not a cap. A resistor would throw the rest of the XO off slightly.

Last statement kinda correct.
The DB usage here is improper. Caps don't drop DB's , but limit how high a driver goes.

I was a little confused when you mentioned db's in the post below. I do understand that the db's don't drop but if I understand right, the cap changes the crossover point so that a certain range of highs never reach the tweeter which is exactly what I'm wanting to accomplish. The smooth, silky highs are kept but the upper harsh shrilll highs are prevented from ever reaching the tweeter.

"The cap in series with the tweeter like that will b a 6db roll off at higher frequencies."

It appears that a portion of the vocals/mids are fed to the tweeters and that's what I was losing when I was putting a cap on all 3 tweeters. Those vocals/mids have returned with a passion very similar to how my 2b's sound. The music is full and rich and is everywhere like it surrounds me coming from all directions which the sda's are known for imo.

The rd0's cannot accomplish this with just a tweeter swap. Caps have to be changed so that the mids aren't lost along with the brightness. That's why the rd0's sound dull and you lose alot of soundstage, fullness and richness and warmth for that matter with them.

agfrost

I clicked on this thread fully expecting to see that you had bought a $3 gallon of gas to set your tweeter capacitors afire.

F1nut

The rd0's cannot accomplish this with just a tweeter swap. Caps have to be changed so that the mids aren't lost along with the brightness. That's why the rd0's sound dull and you lose alot of soundstage, fullness and richness and warmth for that matter with them.

To anyone that happens across this in the future, the above is pure BS. Ignore it.

candyliquor35m

F1nut wrote: »

To anyone that happens across this in the future, the above is pure BS. Ignore it.

Keep trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes including your own. You are just prolonging their agony and the truth from coming out.

A large percentage of the success of Polk was built on the incredible sound of the sl2000. Then as cables and wires became more efficient, the sl2000 became a little bright to some people.

The easiest solution was a stop-gap tweeter but compromises had to made because the multiple tweeters in the sda each handle different x-over frequencies. It solved the brightness complaints but took 50% of the soundstage and vocals/mids along with it.

The problem was not with the sl2000. The problem is with the x-over frequencies at the x-over level which is controlled by the caps.

The easiest solution in the short term is to add caps at the tweeter level until you EE types can work out the optimal cap values at the x-over.

Just like someone said "this is not rocket science"

You guys can and do understand what I'm talking about.

F1nut

You have serious issues. If you're not already, see a shrink and take your meds.

ben62670

Dude many many people have tried to tell you that you are ruining the frequency range of these speakers. Cutting off the highs is not fixing it. You are for sure giving bad advice. I know you enjoy them, and that is great, but people who don't understand XO's are reading your post, and thinking yeah this will fix it. Anyone who knows any XO facts knows you are just killing the highs. This is not the answer. Yes the tweeter is not the best, but capping it is not the answer either. The peak is at 12k. You don't care about anything above 10k, or wherever that cap blocks the frequencies at. I have tried to wait till you have seen the light, but going out of your way to preach this is just wrong. Plenty of guys here have mentioned what you are doing is wrong, and yet you persist. Like I said if you are happy with it cool, but don't keep smearing the forum with this bad advice please.
Thanks
Ben

candyliquor35m

Killing the highs to get rid of the slight brightness is exactly what I want to do so what's the problem. The cap does that and eventually some of you will figure out how to do it when you do your x-over upgrades so it won't have to be done at the tweeter level like I'm doing which obviously works just as well as doing it at the x-over level.

Mission accomplished. $3 fix per tweeter vs $46 per new tweeter.

I'm not trying to fix the spike which no one has probably ever heard with their ears. It's on the chart but I've never heard it so I'm not worried about it.

If you don't like what I'm doing, don't do it. Some will want to try it and some won't.

Auditions available by appt only

Systems

candyliquor35m wrote: »

... don't do it

excellent advice.;)

F1nut

candyliquor35m wrote: »

Killing the highs to get rid of the slight brightness is exactly what I want to do so what's the problem.

I'm not trying to fix the spike which no one has probably ever heard with their ears. It's on the chart but I've never heard it so I'm not worried about it.

Talk about contradiction. :rolleyes:

avguytx

candyliquor35m wrote: »

If you don't like what I'm doing, don't do it. Some will want to try it and some won't.

No, none of us will ever try it because we actually understand what the addition of the cap is doing.

candyliquor35m

Ok explain what the cap is doing and why it is doing exactly what I want it to do and why is that a bad thing.

1. The harsh bright highs are gone.
2. The normal subtle highs remain.
3. The soundstage and mids/vocals remain.

madmax

If your RDO tweeters sound too bright something is wrong. I've had this situation twice in my SDA setup. One time was when I used monster cable interconnects and the other was with a POS sony CD player.
madmax

ShinAce

Candy,

Google "notch filter"....please!

1 cap, 1 coil, 1 resistor(maybe)....won't cost that much for a test.

ShinAce

candyliquor35m wrote: »

Ok explain what the cap is doing and why it is doing exactly what I want it to do and why is that a bad thing.

1. The harsh bright highs are gone.
2. The normal subtle highs remain.
3. The soundstage and mids/vocals remain.

A challenge? ok!

1) They're not gone, they are attenuated. A little distortion versus a lot of distortion is still distortion. Not only are the 'harsh' highs attenuated, further down the chain the highs are almost missing. You might have substituted a small peak for a big dip.

2) What? Can we be more specific than 'highs'. How about breaking it down to clarity of female vocals, cymbal sounds and snare sounds.

3) Nope, sorry. By adding a cap, you are altering the phase of that tweeter. Chances are, for the worse. This will degrage the soundstage and can affect the frequency response(or mids/vocals as you call them).

How can you say the cap is doing exactly what you want if you are doing a trial and error run? You still have more trials to do before it's over.

Systems

candyliquor35m wrote: »

Ok explain what the cap is doing and why it is doing exactly what I want it to do and why is that a bad thing.

If you have added the 2.2uf directly in series (no shunt coil between them)with a bigger cap then you have created a very small value from the combo.This will mean that it will only be reproducing the very top octave from 10-20k.

1.The harsh bright highs are gone.

Because this tweeter is no longer contributing output in the lower treble the systems overall output in this (the brightness)range will be less therefore it should sound less bright.

3. The soundstage and mids/vocals remain.

Because most of the vocal range is reproded by the midrange drivers.

avguytx

I bet the sound on an RTA would look like a big smiley faced EQ setting or somewhere there abouts.