Capacitor shootout

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Comments

  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    How many tweeters have you all ran across that were damaged because of DC voltage?

    Blown because of overdriven, yes, but DC offset? I have never seen one.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited January 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    How many tweeters have you all ran across that were damaged because of DC voltage?

    Blown because of overdriven, yes, but DC offset? I have never seen one.
    That is because most speakers use passive crossovers so they will have a capacitor in series with the tweeter.Therefore will not see any DC.In an active set up DC can be a problem so it is wise to add the cap.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Thats smart thinking. with an 8ohm tweeter you could probably use a 20, and be happy with no adverse slope to the tweets. With a 4ohm tweeter you would have to run about 40 like you posted. keep in mind you may want to try a polarity sway to deal with the phase issue of a 6db sloped bass blocker;)
    The tweeter is actually 6 ohms and the cap is large enough that it does not add any phase shift as the tweeters output is already more than -24db down before the cap begins to roll off.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    GV#27 wrote: »
    That is because most speakers use passive crossovers so they will have a capacitor in series with the tweeter.Therefore will not see any DC.In an active set up DC can be a problem so it is wise to add the cap.

    I understand. But in an active setup , the same basic xover design is used, right, just within the electronic components?




    Nevermind, I'll go sit in my corner and read.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited January 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    nevermind, I'll go sit in my corner and read.
    There will be a test in the morning:D
    F1nut wrote: »
    You'd have to go with a 20 and 23 as Sonicap's largest is 30uF. Probably run $50-$60.
    Ouch,I think I will try and tough it out with the nasty $8 Solens for a while longer.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,573
    edited January 2008
    Tubes can introduce a big failure.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    If there are any issues with an amp/XO popping, or clipping the tweeter sees the brunt of it. I would for HaHa's try reversing the polarity.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    I would for HaHa's try reversing the polarity.
    Yes I have tried it and got the results expected when reversing polarity of a 4th order LR crossover,a big nasty null caused by the midrange and tweeter being 180 degrees out of phase with each other.As mentioned the cap begins to operate at a low enough frequency as to make its phase shift insignificant.

    Anyway sorry for the derail Ben.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    Hey man we are still talking caps:D Any time we can share its a good thing:)
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    Ben . GV.

    Quick question, but since I have you 2 here, I know you guys would know, I have always wondered, and by looking at the build, I dont think so, but in the basic 2nd order (I believe) xovers like in the older monitor series Polks (monitor 7's, 5's, 5jr;s..etc). Is there any part (cap/coil) that rolls off the highs at the top end, or is that the tweeter rolling off naturally? There is nothing acting as a Hp filter, other than the inductor for the mids, right?

    The only reson I ask is becuase after changing the caps from Mylar to Solen, I noticed (yes an audible smoother difference) but also what seems like a HP slope in the higher Fr. You know how when listening to a bad recording there is a slight hisss, well after changing the caps out, I noticed on the same recording, the hiss wasnt as pronounced, alot more quiet. Like the top end had been cut down.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    Theoretically the tweeter should roll of naturally. But the cap can limit the highs. Also speaker cables/IC's have capacitance that can roll of the highs too.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Theoretically the tweeter should roll of naturally. But the cap can limit the highs. Also speaker cables/IC's have capacitance that can roll of the highs too.

    Thanks I edited my post and added more info on my experience, sorry. I didnt change the cables just the caps and resistors. Your saying a cap can effect the top end of the Fr band?
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    Has any of your testing revealed the same thing? Different caps effecting the highs in that way? Limiting the reach of the tweeter?
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    Has any of your testing revealed the same thing? Different caps effecting the highs in that way? Limiting the reach of the tweeter?

    Mostly wires have limited the highs. Too heavy a gage kills highs especially with lower power applications. Caps have also effected the highs. I don't have a lot of experience with this, but the Dayton's clearly reach a little higher than the Solen's. Hold off any ideas you are having unless you just want to bite the bullet, and get the SoniCap's at $20 each for 12's. I think this is the route I will be taking on my custom SDA's.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Mostly wires have limited the highs. Too heavy a gage kills highs especially with lower power applications.

    First I hear of this. I always believed that you cant go wrong with a heavier guage wire.
    Caps have also effected the highs. I don't have a lot of experience with this, but the Dayton's clearly reach a little higher than the Solen's. Hold off any ideas you are having unless you just want to bite the bullet, and get the SoniCap's at $20 each for 12's. I think this is the route I will be taking on my custom SDA's.

    Same here, $60 for 3.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    First I hear of this. I always believed that you cant go wrong with a heavier guage wire.

    Sorry dude.
    Let me clarify what I said a bit. Heavy gage super fine strand dogs the highs in a bad way. I have some single strand AQ's in a star quad config which equals 11ga, and sound very nice. IMHO it is skin effect, and bad insulation that is the real culprit. Now on subs bigger is better.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • Phasearray
    Phasearray Posts: 437
    edited January 2008
    oops
    Receiver - Onkyo HT-R340
    Front - Pioneer S-HF21
    Center -Onkyo SKC-340C
    Surround Back - Polk R15 <--Ticket to club polk
    Subwoofer - Onkyo SKW-340
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Sorry dude.
    Let me clarify what I said a bit. Heavy gage super fine strand dogs the highs in a bad way. I have some single strand AQ's in a star quad config which equals 11ga, and sound very nice. IMHO it is skin effect, and bad insulation that is the real culprit. Now on subs bigger is better.


    Gotcha. Single strand that equals 11awg, must be hard to manage?
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    Not really. Its really just like regular romex wire for a house.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    Now, does this guage opinion, apply to IC's or speaker wire? Or both? In other words, what would be a better fisrt upgrade, my Monster IC's or my speaker cable? And of corse all of this depends on how good your source is.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited January 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    Now, does this guage opinion, apply to IC's or speaker wire? Or both? In other words, what would be a better fisrt upgrade, my Monster IC's or my speaker cable? And of corse all of this depends on how good your source is.

    In my experience get rid of anything Monster. Start with speaker cable and then IC's, but if you can do both do it. Either get something Ben makes (support a Polkie) or go with Signal Cable (esp. for IC's).

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2008
    From experience, Ben's interconnects made a nice difference in my system. They replaced a almost $400 pair of interconnects.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    I thought my 7' 16awg white "Lowes" lamp cord was doing ok.

    Here is something similar @ RatShack

    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049735&cp=2032058&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032058&categoryId=2032058&kwCatId=2032058&kw=speaker+wire&parentPage=search

    Seemed to work better than the more expensive.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2008
    Another cap shootout.
    http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

    I believe this one was posted already.
    http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited January 2008
    Wow Jake and Ben,you were still talking xovers,caps at 2 am.:D A sure sign you are afflicted with audio disease.

    jakelm wrote: »

    The only reson I ask is becuase after changing the caps from Mylar to Solen, I noticed (yes an audible smoother difference) but also what seems like a HP slope in the higher Fr. You know how when listening to a bad recording there is a slight hisss, well after changing the caps out, I noticed on the same recording, the hiss wasnt as pronounced, alot more quiet. Like the top end had been cut down.
    Hummm assuming the caps were the same capacitance value,it could be the difference in series resistance(ESR) between the two.Different types of caps have different ESR values so its possible that the mylar's ESR is lower so it might have a fraction of a db less attenuation making it sound a bit brighter.Thats all I can think of.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2008
    For me, HF improved with Solens, that shows how shot my old caps were.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2008
    Face wrote: »
    For me, HF improved with Solens, that shows how shot my old caps were.

    The Solen's are definitely not crap. There was a substantial SQ improvement with them. The Dayton's have been getting better, and better with more time on them. I was happy with my Solen's, but I am a freak, and I am always looking to find better stuff on the same price level. Somebody gave me some Solen's because they changed over to Dayton's. That made me curious. So before I continue doing more, and more custom stuff, and upgrades I really want to know. Also I have given advice to many newbies on using Solen's for their upgrades. This advice has been given with my experiences with this one brand that I have used. The real test is going to be the sonicaps vs the Dayton's. When the finances permit I shall do the comparison:)
    BTW I hated giving up your wires. now I need to make some more for myself, and break them in before doing any critical listening. Also the Ipod speaker wires look nice, but the sonics kinda suck so far:(
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2008
    ben62670 wrote: »
    BTW I hated giving up your wires. now I need to make some more for myself, and break them in before doing any critical listening. Also the Ipod speaker wires look nice, but the sonics kinda suck so far:(
    Don't worry, they should be well appreciated here. :D
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    Ok. So far we have Dayton better than Solen better than OEM. From 1-10 I know the margin between the OEM caps and Solens are about ~5. I'm wondering what you think, Ben, the margin is between the Solen and Daytons. In mid bass and highs.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited January 2008
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Wow Jake and Ben,you were still talking xovers,caps at 2 am.:D A sure sign you are afflicted with audio disease.

    Yep..LOL;)

    Hummm assuming the caps were the same capacitance value,it could be the difference in series resistance(ESR) between the two.Different types of caps have different ESR values so its possible that the mylar's ESR is lower so it might have a fraction of a db less attenuation making it sound a bit brighter.Thats all I can think of.

    The values are the axact same 12uF. The only difference was the larger cap, going from electrolytic 34uF to Solen 33uF. That was the only "value" change in the entire xover. The Mills resistors stayed at same value.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek: