My Big Effin' Cables!!

ben62670

treitz3 wrote: »

If you think everything can be measured by an electronic device, you're in the wrong hobby there guy.

+1 on that.

jdhdiggs

If you think you are hearing something other than the result of an electrical signal than you know nothing about this hobby.

Care to explain how you can hear something that nothing non-human can? Microphones are far, FAR more sensitive than the human ear, oscilliscopes are even more sensitive (after all, from the time your music leaves the cd/lp it is an electric signal until th voice coil)

I mean, if a microphone can't record it, you should never hear it on your recordings, no? :rolleyes:

BTW: John is far more correct than most give him credit for. I have noticed that the people who design speaker and electronic systems and recording engineers all agree with him far more than not.

Also, both of you need to work on reading comprehension as you BOTH missed the point, which actually proved mine... Interesting...

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

Thanks Snow. I wish I had an opinion on power cables. I am seriously considering a DIY power cable hard wired directly to my amp, and hard wiring all the caps together to bypass those silly flat steel busses that are inside my amps! I have been looking at Carol wire for the project. I think wiring directly to the innards is bet than adding 2 connectors for the IEC thing. More connectors is more problems!

Ben do you mean direct to the breaker, like a dedicated line specifically for your amp...or modifying the amp?

I have had good experiences with Carol 10/2 wire as both a dedicated line for my amp as well as power cords. Sadly the price of the 250ft spool went up pretty drastically over the last couple of years...more then 2x the price.

Face

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Basically, humans are flawed measuring devices

This couldn't be more true.
How many times have my friends "tuned" their cars and they claim "it's so much faster, must be another 15-20 horsepower, etc..". Then it runs slower than ever at the track.

As for the PC debate, I have no opinion. I changed the PC on my sub and haven't noticed a difference.

My next receiver allows the use of different PC. I'll probably give it a try.

ben62670

Gaara wrote: »

Ben do you mean direct to the breaker, like a dedicated line specifically for your amp...or modifying the amp?

I have had good experiences with Carol 10/2 wire as both a dedicated line for my amp as well as power cords. Sadly the price of the 250ft spool went up pretty drastically over the last couple of years...more then 2x the price.

I have 4 20 amp circuits within 12' from each other. I was talking about upgrading the amps internal wire with point to point wiring. Also I don't really care for IEC connectors. Less connectors is always a better thing minus minor inconveniences. I too am looking at the Carol wire for power cables. I really don't know if 10 is really better than 12 for my present currant draw. Adcoms have very large caps to help with peaks, but I do know I like the idea of very good shielding to help cut down on noise transfered to IC's, and Speaker cables. I try to separate them as much as possible, but it is not easy with my setup. I really would like to put in a 100 amp sub panel. 80 would be ideal, but I am pretty sure they go from 60 to 100.

treitz3

jdhdiggs wrote: »

If you think you are hearing something other than the result of an electrical signal than you know nothing about this hobby.

Care to explain how you can hear something that nothing non-human can? Microphones are far, FAR more sensitive than the human ear, oscilliscopes are even more sensitive (after all, from the time your music leaves the cd/lp it is an electric signal until th voice coil)

I mean, if a microphone can't record it, you should never hear it on your recordings, no? :rolleyes:

BTW: John is far more correct than most give him credit for. I have noticed that the people who design speaker and electronic systems and recording engineers all agree with him far more than not.

Also, both of you need to work on reading comprehension as you BOTH missed the point, which actually proved mine... Interesting...

Awe, crap. PARTY'S OVER fellas. He proved it. This is the end of the discussion. He's right. We can't hear any difference. Everybody can go home now. Go on, go home.....nothing left to see here.






Go on............move along..............keep walking............








I'm so ashamed.

tonyb

jdhdiggs wrote: »

If you think you are hearing something other than the result of an electrical signal than you know nothing about this hobby.

Care to explain how you can hear something that nothing non-human can? Microphones are far, FAR more sensitive than the human ear, oscilliscopes are even more sensitive (after all, from the time your music leaves the cd/lp it is an electric signal until th voice coil)

I mean, if a microphone can't record it, you should never hear it on your recordings, no? :rolleyes:

BTW: John is far more correct than most give him credit for. I have noticed that the people who design speaker and electronic systems and recording engineers all agree with him far more than not.

Also, both of you need to work on reading comprehension as you BOTH missed the point, which actually proved mine... Interesting...

I dunno JD.....K makes some valid points,but extends them thru the whole audio spectrum.By your logic,if speaker designers,recording engineers more times than not agreed with K,then we would all be listening to the same equipment useing the same speaker cables,no?Funny thing is,I bet if you went to these so called engineers homes,I think a ratshack cable will be far and few between.As the human ears go,yeah,we are flawed and audio comprehension differs wildly.Exactly why things don't sound the same to each of us.Regardless,these stupid cable debates bore the crap out of me and many others.The age old saying still applies,let your own ears be the judge.

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

I have 4 20 amp circuits within 12' from each other. I was talking about upgrading the amps internal wire with point to point wiring. Also I don't really care for IEC connectors. Less connectors is always a better thing minus minor inconveniences. I too am looking at the Carol wire for power cables. I really don't know if 10 is really better than 12 for my present currant draw. Adcoms have very large caps to help with peaks, but I do know I like the idea of very good shielding to help cut down on noise transfered to IC's, and Speaker cables. I try to separate them as much as possible, but it is not easy with my setup. I really would like to put in a 100 amp sub panel. 80 would be ideal, but I am pretty sure they go from 60 to 100.

Damn more adventurous then me. This reminds me of Ric Schultz who used to hard wire components together in order to bypass the rca jacks. I am a fan of less is more, but have no real skill with a soldering iron so I have never tried any real modding. For internal wiring I see no reason to use 10, way overkill and it would be harder to work with.

I always wanted to try balanced power at the breaker. I forgot the brand but they used to do 40 and 50 amp panels with balanced power, I remember the transformer was massive....like 200lbs+.

Systems

Gaara wrote: »

I forgot the brand but they used to do 40 and 50 amp panels with balanced power, I remember the transformer was massive....like 200lbs+.

Sounds like that might be Eqitech?

zombie boy 2000

burp

Gaara

Good call GV, it was Equi=tech. Wow the lightest one is 285lbs and the heaviest is 514lbs, those are some heavy duty transformers in there.

unc2701

Check out Torus Power, too. Same idea- designed to survive a couple thousand worst case lighting strikes and puts out balanced power as well. 'course a 100amp panel from them runs about $8500..

madmax

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Microphones are far, FAR more sensitive than the human ear, oscilliscopes are even more sensitive (after all, from the time your music leaves the cd/lp it is an electric signal until th voice coil)

I mean, if a microphone can't record it, you should never hear it on your recordings, no? :rolleyes:

Microphones are way too flawed to even come close to a comparison of human hearing. This is why we know a recording when we hear one.

madmax

MacLeod

madmax wrote: »

Microphones are way too flawed to even come close to a comparison of human hearing. This is why we know a recording when we hear one.

madmax

Microphones are far superior to human hearing.

Can you hear a 2 db difference from 16,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz? A microphone can.

Can you play a pink noise track and tell the exact output of each 1/3 octave bands? A microphone can.

Bamadude

I took the blue pill... so expensive cables don't matter to me

ben62670

Bamadude wrote: »

I took the blue pill... so expensive cables don't matter to me

This lady at my church confused her Valium with her birth control. She had 13 kids, but didn't care...:D

Systems

treitz3 wrote: »

If you think everything can be measured by an electronic device, you're in the wrong hobby there guy.

You know what Spock would say.....

Systems

MacLeod wrote: »

Microphones are far superior to human hearing.

Can you hear a 2 db difference from 16,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz? A microphone can.

Can you play a pink noise track and tell the exact output of each 1/3 octave bands? A microphone can.

But it cant tell that Neal Peart simply kicks arss!!!

MacLeod

Silverti wrote: »

But it cant tell that Neal Peart simply kicks arss!!!

LOL! Got me on that one!

duksbak

This thread really needs some sort of award or something....

madmax

MacLeod wrote: »

Microphones are far superior to human hearing.

Can you hear a 2 db difference from 16,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz? A microphone can.

Can you play a pink noise track and tell the exact output of each 1/3 octave bands? A microphone can.

I can hear variations that no equipment can measure. May not know what they are but I can hear them.
madmax

jdhdiggs

Then how can these sounds be present if they can not be amplified, recorded, or reproduced? After all, an amplifier can only amplify what it measures. A CD or LP only records signals a microphone can measure. A speaker only reproduces the sound it can measure...

I mean, if you can hear things that a system able to measure at a resolution thousandth's of a volt and millionth's of an amp and thousandths of a db from 1Hz to 300khz, what are you hearing exactly?

A loudspeaker is the crudest measuring device in the chain, how is it the only one that can produce these results?

So where is this sound you hear coming from? I would seriously like to understand the logic of this.

Trietz: Grow up or go get laid, you've lost your grip.

Tonyb: Actually, most of them have monster for one reason only: The replacement policy. Kinda funny to see a person who has music and sound production as their livelihood using monster cable on $100K worth of electronics. Of course it all depends on who the guy is and what school of thought they prescribe to, can't say 100% don't believe but the ones I have talked to believe that beyond a certain point there is no difference and that point of no difference would be considered mid to low fi around these parts.

As far as John goes, most people imply what he does not say. Look at Trietz diatribe about SACD equaling dixie cups and a string. That's the moronic logic that people use when dealing with him: That if what he says at the high end is true, it must be just as true in the low end.

reeltrouble1

How come I hear differences in cables?

RT1

madmax

jdhdiggs wrote: »

So where is this sound you hear coming from? I would seriously like to understand the logic of this.

Can you even imagine the amount of processing power it would take to pick out a given nuance of sound? (assuming the transmission of this nuance to the measuring equipment without changing it). And then the ability to tell you exactly what it is??

I'm not alone here. Why do you think it is that the top manufacturers rely on ear after doing all the computer design?

And yes, why can we tell any differences in any components?

phuz

This is all really moot. You're arguing human perception vs. science. Science can not measure or explain human perception, nor can science disprove that a perception exists or doesn't exist.

All humans perceive things differently, and they are not wrong for doing so. You can't hear what someone else hears, and shouldn't argue an opinion, perception, or try to discredit their perception with science. It goes nowhere and only causes frustration and long, nasty threads on internet forums.

So, pretty please with sugar on top... stop the @#$%ing cable debate!

disneyjoe7

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

How come I hear differences in cables?

RT1

You're not it's all in your mind. Rip out all that cable, sell them, buy lamp cord. Copper is Copper that is all...

madmax

I don't think its a perception issue. We could all perceive a different sound while still either hearing or not hearing differences when things change.

jdhdiggs

madmax wrote: »

Can you even imagine the amount of processing power it would take to pick out a given nuance of sound? (assuming the transmission of this nuance to the measuring equipment without changing it). And then the ability to tell you exactly what it is??

I'm not alone here. Why do you think it is that the top manufacturers rely on ear after doing all the computer design?

And yes, why can we tell any differences in any components?

It doesn't take much processing power at all to pull out every nuance of sound beyond the capabilities of a human to hear. This has been and is VERY easily proven. The reason the listen to it is to make sure it sounds good in the real worled, not to unlock some magical sound that they can't measure.


RT1: It can be real, or it can be imaginary, it doesn't matter as long as it's real to you. Up to a point, physics will show you that there is a difference and depending on your personal ability determines the scale of those physical changes that will affect the sound for you. Beyond the point it is psychological similar to a magician or fortune teller pulling their tricks. I have done this with one well known polkie here: Same exact cable, told him I switched it and to listen for the increased bass presence and clearer highs. He thought it was a night and day difference. You tell me, what did he hear? Was it not real to him?

PolkThug

The music on a CD can be fully analyzed without the use of loudspeakers. All the various frequencies at their respective amplitudes can be seen at any given fraction of a second, the raw data doesn't change.

Then, your weak stereo screws it all up.

jdhdiggs

Also, that pesky conversion of an 80GB sound file for a 3 minute song into the proper size for a CD. If the nuance is in the 30MB song, it should be more prevelent in the 80 GB one no? And you have all of that data in the master file....