New TT - I hate it

pearsall001

hearingimpared wrote: »

Sorry. . . me and Phil always get into the "great taste," "less filling" debate. . . it's all in good fun.:)

Atta boy Joe. Some guys just take things a little too serious. We're just having a little fun breaking balls. In the the end...it's all good

snow

Well I cant really comment on how good vinyl sounds. because every record I have ever heard sounded like crap, But yet again I always had 20 dollar record players at best. and never listened to anything better.

But I figure there has to be something to it. Why would thousands of full grown men spend thousands of $ on something that doesnt sound better than your average cd?

So im holding off on a oppinion till I actually hear what a nice vinyl setup sounds like. Who knows it may may make me want to sell all my SACDs DVDAs CDs etc and buy vinyl. Either way it sounds like that actually there is little difference between myself trying out amp preamp sacd speaker combos to make things sound right than a vinyl lover trying out new arms, platters etc.


REGARDS SNOW

rskarvan

I do miss vinyl. It can sound incredibly good. But, the downside is all the endless maintenance and the dust and the scratches and the skipping, hiss, and so forth. But, a newly pressed record on a nice turntable is the bomb!

heiney9

Maybe I missed it, but what are you running for a phono pre amp? This will have a great affect on sound. What are you using for a cartridge? Sometimes (remembering from my vinyl days long ago) certain cartridges just don't mate well with certain phono sections. No rhyme or reason, just no synergy.

You have to work at vinyl, especially if want stellar vinyl sounds. I'm sure your Technics is decent, but to get to the next couple of levels you have to have patience and be willing to try all kinds of combo's until you get it dialed in. Perhpas higher end vinyl isn't for you . I know it's not for me

H9

apc

No phono or pre amp. Running a vintage Marantz 2252B. Technics SL-D202 with a Stanton 500E MK II. Here's the part that I love: TT was a freebie from a friend. I bought the cartridge new for about $35. Polk RT25 bookshelf speakers. Sounds great to me.

Imagine my dissapointment with the $300 TT and factory cartridge that didn't sound any better than my bargain basement rig. I know tons can be spent on TT and related accessories, but my old ears are perfectly happy with what I've got.

Lesson learned.

I'm still trying to detect a difference using Joe's Clamp. My wife and I listened some last night and apparently neither of us have enough of a discriminating ear to appreciate it.

Lastly, if it takes that much time and effort to use then I don't have enough patience to get to the next level. There's a lot to be said about plug and play CDs in the ease of use arena; however, I do love the sound of LPs. It's just fuller and more robust.

heiney9

apc wrote: »

No phono or pre amp. Running a vintage Marantz 2252B. Technics SL-D202 with a Stanton 500E MK II. Here's the part that I love: TT was a freebie from a friend. I bought the cartridge new for about $35. Polk RT25 bookshelf speakers. Sounds great to me.

Imagine my dissapointment with the $300 TT and factory cartridge that didn't sound any better than my bargain basement rig. I know tons can be spent on TT and related accessories, but my old ears are perfectly happy with what I've got.

Lesson learned.

I'm still trying to detect a difference using Joe's Clamp. My wife and I listened some last night and apparently neither of us have enough of a discriminating ear to appreciate it.

Lastly, if it takes that much time and effort to use then I don't have enough patience to get to the next level. There's a lot to be said about plug and play CDs in the ease of use arena; however, I do love the sound of LPs. It's just fuller and more robust.

What do you mean "no phono". You can't successfully run a TT w/o a phono input. If your Marantz has a phono input then you are good.

apc

I meant nothing other than the phone stage of the Marantz. No "phono pre" as in another device.

heiney9

Well atleast you gave it a shot. Much to the chagrin of the vinyl junkies on here, 1st class vinyl isn't for everyone. I say if you done your best to get it to work and can't (for whateve reason) then go back to what works......the $$$ certainly was right

H9

wingnut4772

[SIZE=-3]This thread is scaring me.[/SIZE]

heiney9

wingnut4772 wrote: »

[SIZE=-3]This thread is scaring me.[/SIZE]

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

Well atleast you gave it a shot. Much to the chagrin of the vinyl junkies on here, 1st class vinyl isn't for everyone. I say if you done your best to get it to work and can't (for whateve reason) then go back to what works......the $$$ certainly was right

H9

Not to be crumudgeon here but a $300 TT/tonearm/cartridge isn't 1st class vinyl. Let's not forget that this new turntable we are talking about here is an entry level table! This entry level table is being compared to a vintage table which possibly is of higher quality.

Sorry to say here that if you want 1st class vinyl sound, you are probably going to have to spend $1000 plus dollars. In the mean time an entry level table will get you started and hearing the magic sound of vinyl but if you are looking for better . . . well . . .

I'm surprised that you hear no improvement at all with The Clamp. If nothing else your noise floor should be much lower due to the fact that the clamp forces the record to make intimate contact with the platter and this causes a very great dampening action.

hearingimpared

wingnut4772 wrote: »

[SIZE=-3]This thread is scaring me.[/SIZE]

Darla I don't think you will have these problems. You are not A/Bing your Pro-Ject with another table. The only issue I think is really outstanding is the anti-skating problem.

Spacedeckman

hearingimpared wrote: »

Yep it would be simpler but in my book unless you have a $6000 digital front end, vinyl sounds soooooo much better . . . despite its shortcomings.

I had a $27,000 digital front end for a week once. Best digital I'd ever heard, amazing, actually. My TT rig trashed it.

You guys who bag on vinyl and profess the superiority of CDs are fooling yourselves. It usually isn't that much work to get a table sounding far better than CD. You may have to spend on an outboard phono-preamp if you are trying to skimp with the "freebie" that came with your receiver or preamp. But, I heard a system with a higher end Japanese AVR and a nice TT sound pretty good not long ago. I was impressed.

CDs are a very compromised format that have become pretty dang good after nearly 25 years. I've heard high end SACD against vinyl, and that was much closer, but the vinyl still won out, although there were times when the SACDs really showed their stuff.

Mark

reeltrouble1

hearingimpared wrote: »

Not to be crumudgeon here but a $300 TT/tonearm/cartridge isn't 1st class vinyl. Let's not forget that this new turntable we are talking about here is an entry level table! This entry level table is being compared to a vintage table which possibly is of higher quality.

Niether is a 150 dollar digital player compared to a quality digital source.

I thoroughly enjoy both vinyl and digital, I am on a personal flavor of the week as to which one i prefer on any given day. I think its great to have two wonderful sounds to enjoy.

RT1

hearingimpared

Spacedeckman wrote: »

CDs are a very compromised format that have become pretty dang good after nearly 25 years. I've heard high end SACD against vinyl, and that was much closer, but the vinyl still won out, although there were times when the SACDs really showed their stuff.

Mark

Nailed it!!!

heiney9

hearingimpared wrote: »

Not to be crumudgeon here but a $300 TT/tonearm/cartridge isn't 1st class vinyl. Let's not forget that this new turntable we are talking about here is an entry level table! This entry level table is being compared to a vintage table which possibly is of higher quality.

Sorry to say here that if you want 1st class vinyl sound, you are probably going to have to spend $1000 plus dollars. In the mean time an entry level table will get you started and hearing the magic sound of vinyl but if you are looking for better . . . well . . .

I'm surprised that you hear no improvement at all with The Clamp. If nothing else your noise floor should be much lower due to the fact that the clamp forces the record to make intimate contact with the platter and this causes a very great dampening action.

Joe, I know that $300 isn't 1st class, but it should be a signifigant step up from his Technics and $30 cartridge. I also know if you want to play with the big boys and vinyl $1000 is entry level.

H9

hearingimpared

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Niether is a 150 dollar digital player compared to a quality digital source.

I thoroughly enjoy both vinyl and digital, I am on a personal flavor of the week as to which one i prefer on any given day. I think its great to have two wonderful sounds to enjoy.

RT1

You would be correct here big brother but you forget, that $150 player's transport is being fed to a $3600 to $4000 DAC. (depending on where it was purchased at the time). That being said, I still stand by the statement that the DAC makes the digital tolerable and that I heard what I believe is a $6000 SACD/CD player and that is what comes close to the sound of vinyl but doesn't beat it unless you are comparing vinyl's shortcomings to digital then the blackness that digital portrays is the hands down winner.

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

Joe, I know that $300 isn't 1st class, but it should be a signifigant step up from his Technics and $30 cartridge. I also know if you want to play with the big boys and vinyl $1000 is entry level.

H9

Yes sir!!! One other little monkey wrench I would like to throw in . . . the vintage Technics table was manufactured in a time when TTs ruled the earth. So the technology in the Technics was pretty darn good. Now as far as the $30 cartridge goes. . . well. . . there is no comparison there.:)

mhardy6647

Unfortunately an inexpensive modern tt like the Pro-Ject is not gonna be any great shakes. If you allow for inflation, the Debut III is the equivalent of a sub-$100 tt from the halcyon days of vinyl (e.g., late 1970's). You get what you pay for.

When it's all said and done, you cannot beat analog (early-generation tape is top o' the heap, vinyl and really-well engineered FM just behind) but you gotta have good transducers (tape deck, tuner, or tt) to get what's there.

The digital stuff is great for convenience, and rules the day as a direct consequence (which I don't begrudge, BTW).

Were I buying something new, I think the Clearaudio Emotion/Marantz version of same, and the venerable VPI Scoutmaster are pretty much the entry level for anything serious. The sub $1k tt's are all very compromised. I will allow (somewhat grudgingly) that the battleship Technics SL-1200 is still a pretty good buy, but the arm is not my idea of "high end", and I am no particular fan of DD.

BottomFeeder

Ok, gulp. Let's say a CD guy wanted to try a little TT. Nothing expensive - sorry - but note my user name. I can't spend a lot on digital & can't on analog. Anyway, what if a guy had about $300 & wanted to get up & running w/a TT? I miss vinyl - it's just fun - and like the idea of finding nice albums for little $.

What should this guy do? Run to Radio Shack?

heiney9

Spacedeckman wrote: »

You guys who bag on vinyl and profess the superiority of CDs are fooling yourselves. It usually isn't that much work to get a table sounding far better than CD. Mark

^^In your humble opinion.

I'm not fooling myself or anyone else. Just because I prefer digital doesn't mean I'm fooling myself. It's what I prefer, plain and simple. Arrogance is foolish. Telling someone else what they like or dislike is foolish.

H9

hearingimpared

hearingimpared wrote: »

You would be correct here big brother but you forget, that $150 player's transport is being fed to a $3600 to $4000 DAC. (depending on where it was purchased at the time). That being said, I still stand by the statement that the DAC makes the digital tolerable and that I heard what I believe is a $6000 SACD/CD player and that is what comes close to the sound of vinyl but doesn't beat it unless you are comparing vinyl's shortcomings to digital then the blackness that digital portrays is the hands down winner.

One more thing to add here. The other night I was doing a prolonged listening session to really evaluate the affects of the crossover upgrade as well as the new speaker placement using all vinyl during the session. I had decided after a few hours to see how some good digital would sound now that I had a good taste of the sound. I played the Talking Heads, "Stop Making Sense" and was really blown away at how good it sounded. I went ahead and played a bunch of Mapleshade CDs as well as a very old, and very primitive CD, "The Best of" Emerson, Lake, & Palmer. It sounded excellent. But I didn't get that sense of depth and all the other merits I've mentioned here that I get with vinyl.

apc

"I'm surprised that you hear no improvement at all with The Clamp. If nothing else your noise floor should be much lower due to the fact that the clamp forces the record to make intimate contact with the platter and this causes a very great dampening action." - hearingimpaired


hearingimpaired,

I've not given up...still have another week to evaluate. Will give it many more chances and use various types of music. Have been doing classic rock n roll thus far. Everyone I talk to about clamp devices say they help including all the feedback in the related thread. Wish I could A/B it with twin TTs and same LP on both. Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to try it out.

Happy 4th, y'all.

heiney9

hearingimpared wrote: »

Yes sir!!! One other little monkey wrench I would like to throw in . . . the vintage Technics table was manufactured in a time when TTs ruled the earth. So the technology in the Technics was pretty darn good. Now as far as the $30 cartridge goes. . . well. . . there is no comparison there.:)

I sold Technics around this time and while they were good tables they were mass produced and really weren't anything special. Hell, a B & O of the day would smoke it and the Linn's and Sota's of the day were off the charts better (they should be for the $$$). Not dis'ing the Technics but they were only good, not great for audiophile level performance even in their prime.

I owned and SL-1200 MK II for many years and that was a nice table for the day especially with a nice Grado cartridge. But you are talking $500 for the table and $250 for cartridge (in the day) so 15-18 years ago that wasn't chump change. That combo sounded damn good, but I bet today for roughly $1K you could better it by a pretty wide margin. Not sure, but it would great fun to experiment .

H9

heiney9

apc wrote: »

Happy 4th, y'all.

Ditto to everyone

hearingimpared

apc wrote: »

"I'm surprised that you hear no improvement at all with The Clamp. If nothing else your noise floor should be much lower due to the fact that the clamp forces the record to make intimate contact with the platter and this causes a very great dampening action." - hearingimpaired


hearingimpaired,

I've not given up...still have another week to evaluate. Will give it many more chances and use various types of music. Have been doing classic rock n roll thus far. Everyone I talk to about clamp devices say they help including all the feedback in the related thread. Wish I could A/B it with twin TTs and same LP on both. Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to try it out.

Happy 4th, y'all.

Tony, What kind of platter do you have on your TT? Are you using a mat? If so, does the mat have empty channels in it?

mhardy6647

Ok, gulp. Let's say a CD guy wanted to try a little TT. Nothing expensive - sorry - but note my user name. I can't spend a lot on digital & can't on analog. Anyway, what if a guy had about $300 & wanted to get up & running w/a TT? I miss vinyl - it's just fun - and like the idea of finding nice albums for little $.

Frankly, I'd buy used and I'd buy local. Avoid eBAY, since most folks don't know how to pack a tt for shipping, and you're unlikely to find a bargain from someone who does know what he/she is doing.

The big problem with buying used is wear and tear that you'll only know about too late.

Given your interest and budget, I'd recommend a Technics. Belt or DD, according to your taste, cost, and availability. JVC and Denon made some excellent midlevel tt's but they are not common and typically not cheap.

Better still -- if you can find a nice example -- would be a Philips GA-212 or GA-312, a Thorens (e.g., TD-165 or TD-166), or an AR-XA.

Do you live in New England? If so, check the swap piles at your town dump!
Here are a couple of my dump finds; both in fine working order as found (I installed a new Shure M97xe cartridge on the Pioneer). These will both play music and track well enough not to be vinyl-eaters.

Russ loves it when I recycle my Photobucket photos...

apc

Joe,

Here's the tank (hopefully you can see the channels in the rubber mat):


Here's the mat removed (the factory platter):



I am wide open to suggestions.

reeltrouble1

Spacedeckman wrote: »

I had a $27,000 digital front end for a week once. Best digital I'd ever heard, amazing, actually. My TT rig trashed it.

You guys who bag on vinyl and profess the superiority of CDs are fooling yourselves. Mark

I certainly thank you for stopping to straighten me out, I feel like such a fool now.

I have been listening to music and thinking both CD and Vinyl were great, but I thought I noticed some negatives with each, not that I really dwell on them, well then I suppose I should just take your advice and just junk all my digital stuff.

BTW what is dynamic range of vinyl across the entire frequency range? Addtionally, what is the actual frequency range of a vinyl recording. Maybe the possible noise floor information?

RT1

mhardy6647

As far as frequency response... the CD-4 (compatible, discrete 4-channel) record standard developed by JVC used a multiplex scheme with a high frequency pilot signal a la FM MPX stereo. This required cartridges (more specifically, styli) with good frequency response to 50 kHz. The line contact styli were developed for just this purpose. Thus, the technology of the early 1970's was perfectly capable of response to 50 kHz. No, that doesn't mean that any garden variety two-channel LP has information at 50k encoded on it :-)

The dynamic range is a very good question. I would guess that the quietest vinyl (JVC Supervinyl, also developed for CD-4 and used by Mobile Fidelity for their half-speed mastered discs) would allow 80 dB or better. I doubt 100 dB is real-world achievable, but a definitive answer would be interesting.