Finally, an end to the cable debate!

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Early B.
Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.

HAHAHA...we were both typing at the same time, and still had a similar alanogy...in fact I like yours better...

A blind man can't see that the grass is green, but did you ever stop and think that he may still want to know that.

Let's use your scenario...

1 - Blind man doesn't know what color grass is.
2 - You tell him it's green - sure he doesn't know what that is like because he doesn't know what green is
3 - Someone down the road asks him "What color is grass" he replies "It's green"

If you'd have your way, he'd sayv "hmmm...I have no idea because I can't see it"

Grossly oversimplified, but there it is using your example...

PolkThug

I think its funny the name of this thread is "Finally, an end to the cable debate!" and we're on page 4 now.

Early B.

I think its funny the name of this thread is "Finally, an end to the cable debate!" and we're on page 4 now.

The only way to end the cable debate is to say that this debate will never end -- unless, of course, someone attempts to prove that nothing can never end or that the end must be measured scientifically in order to be considered valid.

unc2701

Uhhh, actually, I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment. Which hasn't happened yet... ever. So if PM can do what he says, then yes, the thread is correctly titled.

Early B.

I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment.

Gee, you only need one person to do this? Yeah, that'll definitely end this debate. :rolleyes:

dorokusai

Originally posted by unc2701
Uhhh, actually, I think that the cable debate would end if just one person could consistantly identify two cables in a controlled environment. Which hasn't happened yet... ever. So if PM can do what he says, then yes, the thread is correctly titled.

F1Nut and myself have done that, but who gives a shite. The difference between a Nordost Solar Wind and the MIT S1 or S3 series is like night and day to us....that's just one of the things we have done on our end.

I believe in cable theory, and its effects and like some Polkies stated previously, that's my stand and I'm very comfortable with it.

I'm definetly in the not uptight camp because I don't care what any of you think about my opinion...with all due respect of course.

Why? It's just an opinion, have we all forgotten this important fact of all things audio?

I personally have zero need to change anyones mind, that's completely up to them....hence the Cable Swap program. It allows you to come up with your own opinion, in your own enviroment.

If you don't try it or demo cables out on your own elsewhere, than your opinion on the matter is without merit.

There have been individuals that found positive, negative and inconclusive results. WOO HOO! That's the whole point, plain and simple.

I could care less either way as I don't make money from the program....I only lose money.

Good luck in your thread, I'm outta here.

2+2

Early B., it doesnt matter to the blind man that hte grass is green. You are right. But what is being said here is that the blind man is saying something like "grass is not green" and others are saying grass is green as a factual matter, whether you can see it or not. At the end of the day, as doro and many have said, it really doesnt matter....thus, to the blind man, grass can be purple for all he cares....but that does not detract at all from the relevance of the fact that grass is green...

....ug...I've posted my share..I'm done.

Polkmanic, I am looking forward to your participation in the test. Good luck.

Peace out to all.

PolkThug

Wasn't "Sassy Grassy Green" a MOPAR color?

PolkThug

sassy grass green

dragon1952

Reminds me of my '73 Dodge Challenger. I bought that car in '74 with 16,000 miles on it for $3,200

dragon1952

This is not mine

mantis

I actually sat here and read the entire thead... o WOW!!!

Ok,
I see why everyone has there opnions this way or that. I have my own opnion on wire.

As long as you use quality wire in your system and it can carry the entire signal from one place to the other withut any interference, then the goal has been met.

Over the years I have used many different kinds of wire and listened to many more. My findings are my own and will share after one listens for themself.

The only thing I have to say here is basically this...

You work hard at building your system to a level you can afford. You search for hours on spekaers and amps. Sources and software, why not the wire? Is wire not part of the system??? Are basic patch cords all that is nessary to hear your system at it's best? Do you know how much money I could have saved if that where true???

Whadyasay

Well....if cables of any type of configuration do sound different than others...they darn well SHOULDN'T. We all seem to agree that different components mated to different speakers make a discernable difference, and we spend enough time and money researching this. If anything, cables should not affect things, because all it is is more of a headache. I think the bigger issue is the marketing hype...meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible. The problem is, this supposed difference is exploited to the extreme as to make it seem like a night and day difference. So for those who buy into all of this, why not just admit that you're buying into it hook line and sinker and you're happy with that?

Actually, if someone has spent a lot of money on their cables, and in the end they are happier...no problem. Good for you. It's the people who claim such things like "You'd have to be deaf and ignorant not to tell the difference.." or "If you're fine with settling for mediocrity...." that heat this issue up. Then again, the more we all get into audio fidelity and its associated electronics, the farther away from general sensibility we stray anyway.

F1nut

".....meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible."

Have you tried different cables to be able to say that? I have and your comment is far from the truth.

dragon1952

meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible.

Well to me that's just the point. Cables are of all kinds of different construction and materials. Different metals and plating of the terminations, different purity metals used for the conductors, different dielectric and shielding materials, different gauges, stranded vs single conductor. It's the same with amps and CD players, etc. The objectivists are always using that similar quality/construction/specs argument when alot of the time the components we're comparing are not necessarily that similar.

mantis

Thats why spec's are spec's and actual performance is always different.

Can you put sound quality on paper?

Dan

Whadyasay

Originally posted by F1nut
".....meaning that if there is a real difference between cables of similar quality/contruction, it is at best miniscule and hardly audible."

Have you tried different cables to be able to say that? I have and your comment is far from the truth.

Yes I have, and the differences seem extremely subtle...but not worth the money spent on these high-end/boutique wires in search of the magic formula. If there is an extreme difference, then it means that one of these really expensive cables is either a piece of garbage with horrible construction or it is adding tonal coloration...is that what a cable is supposed to do? If so...why do it with a cable? Shouldn't cables be as neutral as possible?

I do sound editing/design for movies, so I'm trained to hear differences...and by the time I think I hear a difference, it's a tough call as to whether it really does sound different or if I've forced myself into hearing a difference. I've recorded into ProTools using the same speaker/mic/volume level etc. but with different cables of similar quality construction (interconnects from Audioquest, Monster, Kimber....speaker wire from AR, Audioqiest, Kimber) and then zoomed in and looked at the individual waveforms, even a sample at a time. They were identical. I've had to cancel sounds out by reversing the phase of what seemed identical to the ear, but was a few peaks/valleys off. When that's the case, some sound will always come through...albeit tiny at times. Reversing one of the cable sample recordings against another, when lined up properly, created absolute silence...meaning they were identical.

Some say you can't electronically measure the differences that people hear....well, this microphone can hear better than just about any human...and IT heard no difference, even though at times I thought I kinda' did. But what does a machine know, right? Did the mic cable somehow ingeniously average out the two recordings into identical representations? If so...maybe I should be using THAT for cable instead.

Come to think of it...I've never met a recording engineer who's spent tousands of dollars on a high-end boutique micropone cable to be used while recording the very material we all listen to.

Also, by the time I think I've heard a difference, I'm not listening to the actual music anymore...so what's the point?

Whadyasay

Sorry...double post.

F1nut

Well, we're back to the fact that some people can hear a difference and some can't. Sometimes the differences are subtle, sometimes they are huge, but then there are a lot of subtle differences in audio and if even it's just a subtle improvement, to me, it's worth every dollar. It's kinda like the need for speed, to shave a second off your time it may involve a lot of subtle changes and may cost a lot of money, but oh what a effing ride.

Whadyasay

If you felt like you were driving faster, yet your lap time and radar gun readings were exactly the same as before you got that $3000 timing belt...would you still think you were driving faster?

$4 a week can make a subtle improvement in some starving child's life. What can it do for an audio system?

Now...I cannot prove that someone isn't hearing something that someone else isn't. But what they claim to be hearing is something that cannot be proved scientifically, whereas the lack of functional and electrical differences can be. So...if these cable manufacturers have somehow figured out how to control and manipulate things that cannot be quantified, but can be unequivocally sensed and distinguished by a few extrordinary people...what the heck are these manufacturers doing making cables?!! They think it's real...because they incorporate it in their designs. Should they not be applying these theories to the growth of scientific and biological development? Something that could possibly help the world, instead of keeping it secret and mysterious...and yet unproven? Okay, maybe it's not quite on the scale of something that could cure cancer or whatever......then why does this stuff cost so damn much?!!!!

F1nut

Depends, maybe the new timing belt was helping to get out of a corner faster, but causing extra engine fricton on the straights. Time to tweak a little more.

$4.00 a week for a year? Well, $208.00 will buy a very nice pair of used interconnect cables.

Whadyasay

Which sound exactly like a $40.00 pair.

F1nut

Hey, if you can't hear a difference, no big deal, but don't think that because you don't that others can't. Science? Screw science! I don't need to see some spec sheet to tell me what I hear or don't hear.

BTW, it's more than a few extrordinary people. Just read some of the cables review posts from folks that use to feel the same way you do and that's just a small precentage of audio freaks.

Edit for language......you prudes.

TheReaper

Here is my philosophy on cables. With sub-$1000 receivers having built in per-channel digital equalizers. It just doesn't make economic sense to go chasing after a cable to perfect the sound of a lower budget system like mine. I just use the equalizers in my receiver to tune the sound to my tastes.

Whadyasay

Originally posted by F1nut
Hey, if you can't hear a difference, no big deal, but don't think that because you don't that others can't. Science? **** science! I don't need to see some spec sheet to tell me what I hear or don't hear.

BTW, it's more than a few extrordinary people. Just read some of the cables review posts from folks that use to feel the same way you do and that's just a small precentage of audio freaks.

No...the thing is...I thought I was hearing a difference after a lot of back and forth. I really did. Which is why I did the testing using a special ribbon diaphram mic that a sound designer friend of mine uses to record ladybugs in flight, amongst other things (this guy was a sonar man on a naval sub...he's nuts when it comes to this stuff). We did these tests in his recording studio, with reference monitors in an anechoic sound booth. No electrical gauss or ohm tests and NO SPEC SHEETS...but the actual sound coming out of the speakers...being picked up by an insanely sensitive mic that can discern differences in frequencies that the human ear isn't supposed to be able to hear. The mic acts as the ear...a really GOOD ear. I intended to prove that there WAS a difference...but I couldn't. If one sound was any brighter or bassier or thinner/fuller sounding than another of the same material...even by a nano-amount...it would show up in the waveforms of the actual recording, as heard by the mic. It didn't. Now, this isn't to say that other cables out there won't sound any different no matter what you do. But if it does, something's been done to that cable to sound that way, meaning most likely that it's not doing its job, which is to stay out of the way in terms of audible coloration. I admit I had a limited variety, but the Monsters cost around $50, and the Audioquests were around $300.00 or something, the AR's around $30. Even a bigger price difference between speaker cables.

So the differences I were 'hearing' were a result of my wanting and trying to hear a difference. I work in audio and video production, I have extremely sensitive hearing and I'm a musician with just about perfect pitch....and I know how much of a mind f^%k sound can be, especially when you are listening repeatedly and microscopically to something for an extended period of time.

But whatever, really......some folks are happy with the exotic cables they bought...it makes them feel better about their system, and tey may or may not translate that into better sound. Me, I choose to save that money for other things and get the same performance as the exotic stuff...which makes me feel better about my system and the person who owns it.

jdhdiggs

That's pretty cool Whadayasay and matches some half-assed stuff we ran in college. We had some great wires to compare, but our mics/listeners/environment were not the best so we went the "inconclusive" route which really pissed off the guy whoe spent, minimum, $200/ft on every cable in his system.

What I really would like to see is some super cheapo patch cord, or even some basic AR or MC compared to something like transperent or MIT cables that do have some R-L-C components in the signal chain and see what they do to the signal. My suspicion on these types of cables is that they do change the sound by drastically in certain areas by changing the sounds at particular frequencies, but not the whole spectrum.

dragon1952

Originally posted by Whadyasay
No...the thing is...I thought I was hearing a difference after a lot of back and forth. I really did.

Yes....heaven forbid we trust our own ears :rolleyes:
Better to trust some inanimate object that can't even hear. If the squiggly lines match up it must sound the same. After all, squiggly lines don't lie. And a jet engine and a rock concert probably sound the same too becuase they both measure the same on the decibel meter.

PolkThug

Originally posted by dragon1952
Yes....heaven forbid we trust our own ears :rolleyes:
Better to trust some inanimate object that can't even hear. If the squiggly lines match up it must sound the same. After all, squiggly lines don't lie. And a jet engine and a rock concert probably sound the same too becuase they both measure the same on the decibel meter.

If scientists could figure out a way to make recordings via your human ears, would you rather have a recording of your favorite live performance done with a human ear, or a microphone like what is used now?

unc2701

That makes me think of that mouse with the human ear on its back:

PolkThug

Originally posted by unc2701
That makes me think of that mouse with the human ear on its back:

haha! I just pictured a recording studio with mice hanging down everwhere.:)