Finally, an end to the cable debate!

Early B.

You know what...nevermind

Finally, something we can all agree on...

BTW, PM -- you shouldn't even bother participating in such a test because you've already formulated your opinion on this issue. If you do, the test will be totally invalid before you even get started. You gotta find a large number of subjects who are not biased to do the listening. You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician. Good luck with trying to prove to yourself that you're right.

Early B.

I would submit that what we are all after is tone in our audio systems. Additionally, I'll submit that everything in the signal path is a contributing factor to the quality or character of the sound.

Interesting post, Blue.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Early B.
Finally, something we can all agree on...

BTW, PM -- you shouldn't even bother participating in such a test because you've already formulated your opinion on this issue. If you do, the test will be totally invalid before you even get started. You gotta find a large number of subjects who are not biased to do the listening. You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician. Good luck with trying to prove to yourself that you're right.

Obviously you've got it out for me...that's fine whatever. But, can you start by answering my question please??

If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference??? You do know what a blind test is right?

unc2701

Originally posted by Early B.
You'll also need to employ the services of a statistician.

The statistician is already covered... no need to employ, I'll waive the usual $200/hr fee.

2+2

Early B. you missed the boat on this altogether. It would not surprise me one bit if 90% of the general population cant hear any difference. Thats fine and your test would prove nothing.

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by 2+2
Early B. you missed the boat on this altogether. It would not surprise me one bit if 90% of the general population cant hear any difference. Thats fine and your test would prove nothing.

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...

OMG!!!! Finally, someone who 'gets' it!

Thank you!

By the way, Early B entered this thread with hostility...so I doubt he's interested in hearing the rational point of view.

hoosier21

I see no problem at all with trying doing this test, why not? It could be fun, But…. just a few thoughts,

Agenda?
Sponsors?
Video taping?
A Lab?

Come on now, the gatherings I have been to, are 75% social events, with cool gear and demos coming in second. Think about it, even if Mark's is a small gathering like Russman had in Texas, it is hard to do critical listening with 2-3 stereos going at the same time, 5-8 people milling around, swapping out gear, changing CD's.

Now when we were at Troy's, we had 30-40 people inside and outside, two rigs going on, lots of gear everywhere, speakers swapping out every 20 mins. 3 and 4 people to a couch, some on the floor, some in easy chairs off to the side.

I predict Mark will have 2 to 3 rooms set up for listening, 20-30 people EASY, a frigging ton of gear. It will it be hard to listen for the differences in the cables with all the people and noise from talking, sound from other rooms and such. It will be nearly impossible and somewhat rude to ask the other 20 people attending to be silent and don't move while somebody is trying to listen to x y and z cables. The gathering will be a great time, but not even close to being ideal for cable evaluations.

I suggest for those on the fence, why wait till the meeting, do it right now at your house, with your equipment. Join the cable swap program, the cost is shipping to the next person in line.

PolkThug

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I just don't see how anyone can contend there is no difference when there is proof to the contrary.

The answer is simple. Some people have not seen the proof for themselves, or nobody has taken the time to show them the proof.

My house and beer tap are open for anyone to show me the proof. FYI I like 80 proof.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by PolkThug
The answer is simple. Some people have not seen the proof for themselves, or nobody has taken the time to show them the proof.

My house and beer tap are open for anyone to show me the proof. FYI I like 80 proof.

Oh I understand that completely. But if you are shown the results of the test (or can witness it first-hand) and I am 100% accurate on identifying cables...then you'd have to admit there's a difference right? maybe not one you can hear, but that one exists...right?

jdhdiggs

2+2

Right on, 100%.

Some beliefs of my own since I am now getting bashed by both camps in various threads:

I know that I will most likely never hear the difference (real or not) because my hearing is not that great. I have burst both eardrums twice on the left and around four or five times on the left. I have passed hearing sensitivity tests perfectly, but I know my hearing is far from perfect. My wife proves this to me consistantly. She can here the TV in DVD mode from 40 ft through 2 closed doors. Me, I can barely here it in the same room. Does this mean I shouldn't care? No, not really. It is curiousity driven. If PM can go 20/20, then I know if I change my cables, at the very least it will sound better to my wife or some of my guests. It also allows me to feel better spending $50-$100 on a piece of cable knowing that it does make a difference to some people. And perhaps with some training, I might here that difference as well.

If PM fails, as the "difference" and "no-difference" camps are both predicting? Well, I'll go spend that extra budget on better speakers that I know have different sounds and be done with this stupid argument. And speaker differences can be measured on a computer...

I can feel the vultures circling...

Worse comes to worse PM, if we can borrow some high end interconnects and an integrated amp (since my carve/adcom setup doesn't seem sufficient) come to my house for a night and we'll do it there. Maybe I'll talk my wife into making her famous pork tenderloing in chedder cheese sauce...

PolkThug

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Oh I understand that completely. But if you are shown the results of the test (or can witness it first-hand) and I am 100% accurate on identifying cables...then you'd have to admit there's a difference right? maybe not one you can hear, but that one exists...right?

YES!! I agree with you 100%.

hoosier21

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
I have burst both eardrums twice on the left and around four or five times on the left.

but how many times on the left? lol

Also, jdhdiggs, why did you post not to use the Maggies in this test?

I think Maggies would be the most revealing speaker to try the test on.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
If PM fails, as the "difference" and "no-difference" camps are both predicting?

You say that like there's a chance of that happening:D

Keep in mind, I'm not doing this for me...I've done this a bunch of times and already know there is a difference. I am doing this to prove to all the nay-sayers that there IS a difference. I wouldn't be putting my **** on the line if I thought there was a chance I could fail at this...I'm not that brave, not even close.

I think i asked this already, but can you hear the difference between your Polks and a set of crappy KLH or Bose? Can you do that 20 out of 20 times? I bet you can... That's how much of a difference there is between cables for me...night and day usually. Maybe I have superhuman ears or something:D or maybe I've just learned to use those more due to bad sight...who knows...

All you people saying that I'll fail, I'm serious about those bets. I'll take any bet you make that I'll get 20/20

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
Maybe I'll talk my wife into making her famous pork tenderloing in chedder cheese sauce...

mmmm...cheese...:D

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
mmmm...cheese...:D

Seriously, the thing is a heart attack on a plate, but damn is it good. With some asperagus and foccacia and a good wine... Now that's tasty...

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by hoosier21
but how many times on the left? lol

Also, jdhdiggs, why did you post not to use the Maggies in this test?

I think Maggies would be the most revealing speaker to try the test on.

I agree wholeheartedly agree with you, but some people believe that di-pole type speakers would hide the differences. That argument came up when some people did the same thing running 3.6's and ML gear over at AVS.

I'd figure klipsch would do this as well, but same argument was made becasue the horn "disguised" the sound.

That's why.

AsSiMiLaTeD

James, how far are you from Mark? Russ brought up a good point about there possible being too many at Mark's place to do a good demo...I definitely don't want to inconvenience anyone else by doing this at the gathering.

There won't be any need to bring extra gear over to your place. I think if I can hear it on a yamaha receiver through some RTi8s at Tweeter, I can do it with your gear.

jdhdiggs

85 Miles as my car drives, but if that's what it takes to get away, then whatever.

Test gear would be 1.6QR maggies driven by a carver a500x, adcom passive pre-amp and an modded CDP with a tube output stage assuming all my stuff is used.

Early B.

Polkmanic is saying that eventhough many people cannot hear a difference in cables, that difference does exists and it can be heard on a consistent basis, and that he can hear it on a consistent basis. The fact that Polkmanic can hear the differences consistenly shows that there is a difference (even though many people will likely not be able to hear)...this is a question of whether a difference EXISTS, not can the difference be heard by the general population or any individual. Polkmanic being able to ID calbes 20/20 is merely on guesses is not a possibiltiy...

No, I get it. I can hear the difference in cables. Does a difference exist? YES, it does (at least to me). So what? The difference is only significant if one can hear it. Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one. Nevertheless, you guys are free to enjoy your fruitless and frivolous attempt at doing something that's been done 100 times already without success.

steveinaz

I've done all the testing I need to do; tried another cable, didn't like it, so I replaced it.

You like your supplied 99 cent IC's? then keep them. No skin off my nose...

jdhdiggs

If he does it, it proves a lot to a lot of people. It is very intersting that the only people that say it's a fruitless waste of time are those who are already convinced that it does make a difference.

Even PT said that if PM does it, he'd change his stance... Won't prove anything to anyone? It will if he's successful. If he fails, it just proves that he was full of crap, and that's all.. It's all in fun.

2+2

I guess the point of Polkmanics experiment would be evidence that difference between cables do exist and people who says "difference does not exist" should just say that "difference exists but I can't hear it so interconnects are irrelevant" and that is perfectly fine....

hoosier21

Make it interesting? I say PM does a beer bong or a shot after each test! and let's see if he makes it through 20 tests.:D

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by hoosier21
Make it interesting? I say PM does a beer bong or a shot after each test! and let's see if he makes it through 20 tests.:D

Eh, no openings for volume pukes, we'll stick to shots for each time he gets one wrong, or when someone wants to make him...

Early B.

I guess the point of Polkmanics experiment would be evidence that difference between cables do exist and people who says "difference does not exist" should just say that "difference exists but I can't hear it so interconnects are irrelevant" and that is perfectly fine....

Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.

PolkThug

Originally posted by Early B.
Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one.

Not true! You're making huge assumptions here. I find it very relevant and I haven't heard differences yet.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Early B.
No, I get it. I can hear the difference in cables. Does a difference exist? YES, it does (at least to me). So what? The difference is only significant if one can hear it. Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it. Waste of f*cking time. Proves nothing to no one. Nevertheless, you guys are free to enjoy your fruitless and frivolous attempt at doing something that's been done 100 times already without success.

Man, why all the hate? Geez man, freakin' chill out. If you're not into it, that's fine...but there's no need to smal everyone else who is.

Did you mother not teach you to play nice with the other kids???

and saying that "Whether the difference exists is absolutely irrelevant to someone who cannot hear it" is like saying "Man that picture is beautiful, but I guess it doesn't mean anything to a blind person". What about people like me who just want to know stuff, and know the truth about stuff...even if it doesn't apply to them.

Hell, I can draw out and explain the DT fusion reaction (D + T > 4He (3.5 MeV) + n (14.1 MeV)). It doesn't have anything to do with me and what I do for a living (not even remotely close)...but I still find interest in it and still like to know about it...

unc2701

Originally posted by Early B.
Yeah, that's like trying to PROVE to a blind man that grass is green so can he say, "I'll admit that grass is green, but I still can't see it."

Utterly pointless.

1)Bad metaphor, a blind man can't learn to see.
2)Circular logical, you assume that which is to be proved.

By the way, why do all the cables matter people seem to get really uptight whenever someone says the words "Double blind"? Everyone except for PM seems to be totally flipping out.

PolkThug

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
What about people like me who just want to know stuff, and know the truth about stuff...even if it doesn't apply to them.

Bingo!

steveinaz

Folk's, thats why they call it "Cable Theory." If we had facts, this debate wouldn't exist.

It's like arguing religion, try to prove all you want, but it won't change a thing, and I'll still go home a Catholic!