Finally, an end to the cable debate!
Comments
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Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D
You give me a couple minutes with each cable on said gear, and I'll be ready to go...each cable will have it's own unique sound...all I need is a couple minutes to figure out what that is...
You go girl.
BTW, I just happen to know cables sound different. You better watch what equipment they get hooked up to. Some equipment the cables make no difference whatsoever. Better stick to tubes for this contest.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D
or October or November....Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Well, I for one will not be attending any more Polk gatherings.
Russ isn't going, less competition for the hot chicks that will be there, chicks go crazy for the big headed man from Texas, second only to a beer bellied man from Georgia, so I will be in like Flint, Mark there will be some hot chicks there right?Dodd - Battery Preamp
Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
Outlaw ICBM - crossover
Beringher BFD - sub eq
Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..." -
Originally posted by madmax
Better stick to tubes for this contest.
Tubes??? really? In my experience tubes have been way more forgiving, but that was more in terms of speakers instead of IC's. I think I'd want the harshest SS gear you could find.Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i -
New idea, let PM pick the equipment, anyone else who wants to be part of this can and until it's done, we can just drop the bickering since everyone already seems to "know" the answer.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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I shouldn't even comment on this because of my lack of experience one way or the other, but I can't resist.
I personally have never heard any difference in cables (I'm using that to mean "interconnects" here, not speaker wire or power cables) . I've never really tried or wanted to hear any difference in cables. I thought about getting involved in the cable swap program because I think that's a great idea, but honestly most of the cables cost more than I feel like I would realisticly be willing to spend on them, and if I DID hear a difference-- well, then here we go. So my position has been: Yes, different interconnects probably sound different, even if there's no scientific reason for it. Maybe I can't hear the difference; Maybe my equipment is not good enough to hear the difference; Maybe I don't WANT to hear a difference, because I'm really pretty satisfied with what I'm hearing now.
I'm not actually the dumbass that I may come across as sometimes-- The scientific side of me tells me that the flow of an electrical signal through a cable is a basic, well-understood concept, and that, at the frequencies in the audio spectrum and lengths we're talking about, any difference between one wire and another should be incredibly small, certainly not measurable. As a human being though, I know that just because something can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I believe that hearing can be more sensitive than any instrument for measuring. Moreover, there are individuals whose opinions I value and trust, who have much more experience with this sort of thing than I do, not to mention much better audio equipment with which to hear the differences-- that feel strongly that cables DO make a difference. That in itself has been good enough for me, so far.
I see nothing wrong with trying to set up the experiment, as described above. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to be there in person (pending confirmation on the hot chicks), but I'm very interested in hearing the results. I must say that I will be VERY impressed if Polkmaniac, or anyone else, is able to pick out interconnects with 100% success. That would prove the point, as far as I'm concerned. If he can't, then that would put me right back on the fence, where I've been for at least the past 4 years.
Jason
And I'm sorry for adding to the pile: I just had a couple of things I wanted to say and didn't know where to put it. -
Mitch Hedberg (comedian) apparently died last night and I'd like to offer this quote, which seems appropriate:
"Because of [dropping] acid, I know now that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the ****."
RIP.Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i -
I will ensure that a tube and SS rig be available for the demo....both of which will most likely be integrated amplifiers to ease signal path changes. The source will be identical for either rig.
Does that make you freaks happy?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Now your going to have the time delay thing going and accoustic memory is so short.... It will never end Mark, never. I'll go ahead and do this experiment just for fun, but someone will always find a hole in it to justify their position (for or against).
After reading the "difference" camps comments, if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference. Doro and PM are the only one's giving me anything to go the other way.
I mean, we are not talking about comparing different TOTL cables in Jesse's setup, we're talking about as far different as we can get as far as quality on the cables as we can get...
It would be even better if we could find a very "specific" sounding cable, if there is souch a thing.
Anyway, this should be fun either way. Have a great night all! There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
A bunch of the cables making the rounds in the cable shootout club (or whatever it is called) could be collected.Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
But even if it did take me hours of listening before the tests...as long as I'm accurate...there's still a difference. It may not be enough of a difference for you to justify spending the cash on, but remember that's not what this is about anyway. We're just going to prove that there's a difference...how much of a difference and how much one should justify to spend for the extra diff. is out of scope for this particular test, because that gets into the subjective.Originally posted by jdhdiggs
After reading the "difference" camps comments, if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference. Doro and PM are the only one's giving me anything to go the other way.
I just want to be clear...there is NOTHING subjective about this blind test...this test is completely conclusive. Afterwards, there shouldn't be any discussion about whether there's a difference in wires. You can discus how much of a difference there is and what's 'better' all day long. And after the test I don't want to hear everyone poking holes in the outcome and coming up with excuses and to why it doesn't prove anything. If you don't think this test is foolproof, then let's hear it NOW, not after the fact.
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I is happy:DOriginally posted by dorokusai
I will ensure that a tube and SS rig be available for the demo....both of which will most likely be integrated amplifiers to ease signal path changes. The source will be identical for either rig.
Does that make you freaks happy? -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
if you need to spend hours with a system and a special amp to here the difference between a free patch cord or TOTL MIT's, well then I got better things to spend my dough on, even if there is a proven difference.
Actually the comments I made regarded a $900 VS $1500? pair. I guess you can hear some differences quickly but I wouldn't pick out the better sounding one that way. I certainly couldn't pick out which cable was which in a short time either without memorizing several characteristics and putting them with a name. But just different? I guess, depending on the cables.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
Does anyone have a video camera that we can use to tape this? I want to document this very well. I think it would be cool to send the results to someone like Streophile magazine (or whoever is good and reputable) to show our results. Maybe we can get someone to sponsor an 'official' test in a lab or something...
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This is worse than a political debate. If you hear a difference, and it's an improvement, Great!! More power to ya.
If you don't hear a difference, Great!! More power to ya.
What hell is the difference? Why get so worked up over something like this? It's only sound.:rolleyes: I've given up debating this subject because I've wised up and realized that no one needs to have the same opinion that I do, too bad more people don't look at it the same way.
I promise that I will not make fun of or bash anyone that believes in high end cables/wire provided that these same folks show the same restraint. -
Polkmanic, I like your style....take no prisoners....must be from TX!!:D
As to sponsors....uhum...what about Polk Audio? Are you listening Admin?System 1: Martin Logan Vantage, Rotel RC 1070, B&K Reference 200.2, Music Hall DAC 15.2, Yamaha 2300
System 2: LSi15 w/db840, Marantz SR8400, Rotel 1080, RM6800 (C&S), Sony X2020ES
System 3: LSi7, Yamaha SW215, Music Hall Maven, Music Hall MMF CD25 w/627opamps
System 4: RTi100, Harman Kardon AVR 230, Panasonic DVD -
BINGO! That's exactly what I'm talking about doing. I'm not going to tell you which is better because we may not agree on what is better...I'm just proving there's a difference.Originally posted by madmax
I certainly couldn't pick out which cable was which in a short time either without memorizing several characteristics and putting them with a name.
madmax
max, from what you're saying, it sounds like you can do the same thing as I...and I suspect that alot of the rest of you hardcore guys can do the same...I just happened to be the first one to volunteer... -
Frank, I see your point...really I do.
I'm just one of those people who thinks that everyone should know the truth and have correct information...simple as that. I just can't stand it when people around me are wrong when I KNOW that I can PROVE that they're wrong and show them the truth.
I'm a somewhat opinionated person, but am very tolerant to others having a different opinion than I do...but it's different when we're dealing with FACT. -
There is no such thing as a bulletproof test in this context.
It is not conclusive for anyone other than yourself.
Nobody will ever - with the exception of maybe using a wire hangar vs. some quality cables - be able to do this sort of test and make it 100% conclusive or reproducable to different people. The difference in most wire is completely subjective and results vary from person to person, it always will. You may get your conclusions, but to say that your conclusions are universal and everyone should agree and will hear the same thing is... well... wrong. That will never change.
It's a matter of perception, not copper, insulation, or silver.
There, I said it. -
I just can't stand it when people around me are wrong when I KNOW that I can PROVE that they're wrong and show them the truth.
This whole thread is obviously ego-driven.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
I disagree...and you're missing my point. Here, just answer this one question:Originally posted by phuz
There is no such thing as a bulletproof test in this context.
It is not conclusive for anyone other than yourself.
Nobody will ever - with the exception of maybe using a wire hangar vs. some quality cables - be able to do this sort of test and make it 100% conclusive or reproducable to different people. The difference in most wire is completely subjective and results vary from person to person, it always will. You may get your conclusions, but to say that your conclusions are universal and everyone should agree and will hear the same thing is... well... wrong. That will never change.
It's a matter of perception, not copper, insulation, or silver.
There, I said it.
If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference???
The fact that there is a difference is not subjective or open for debate. How much of a difference, or if the difference is good or bad...sure, we can debate that all day long. But tell me again, if I (or anyone else) can consistantly hear a difference, then how does one NOT exist? -
You, sir, are wrong. And I feel that comment is way out of line.Originally posted by Early B.
This whole thread is obviously ego-driven.
Maybe you didn't catch this:
How is that ego-driven?max, from what you're saying, it sounds like you can do the same thing as I...and I suspect that alot of the rest of you hardcore guys can do the same...I just happened to be the first one to volunteer...
I ask you the same question I asked phuz. If I can hear a difference 100% of the time without fail, using various pairs of cables, how can there NOT be a difference??? -
Just look at the cable swapping threads. They are mostly different. The only real question is which ones sound better or worse than others, not whether they sound different.
Does anyone here really think they all sound the same given an equal price?
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
Max, I understand where you're coming from and that will always be a good topic for debating. However, I brought up the double blind test idea just to prove that there are differences in how wires sound. There are apparently people out there who belive there is no difference (i.e the guy who wrote that article about the ten audio lies started in another thread) - my only goal is to prove that a difference exists.Originally posted by madmax
Just look at the cable swapping threads. They are mostly different. The only real question is which ones sound better or worse than others, not whether they sound different.
Does anyone here really think they all sound the same given an equal price?
madmax
If you already believe this, which is sounds like you do, then this test will hold little value for you other than just confirming what you already know.
As for determining which cables are better, I'd never put myself in a position to conduct such a test because a) I believe that is subjective and b) of my limited experience with ICs. How can i possibly say which one is the best when I haven't heard them all. -
Mark, are you gonna put together any type of agenda for this meeting, or is it more informal?
Uhhhhh....for a baseline reference, check out the pics from the Carolina Polk Gathering. :rolleyes:
I wonder if we could find anything more pointless to argue about.
El Christo, how retarded is it to try and force objectivity into a hobby that is, at it's core, subjective?? Why even friggin' bother? The camp that believes there is no difference will still contend there is no difference.
If this is what the next Polkfest is about, count me out. I'll see you at the next Carolina Polkfest where there will be no attempt at a blind cable test. A beer funneling contest is a REAL possibility, however.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
What's with all the "I'm taking my ball and going home" talk? Can't you guys see that some people are just curious and view this as fun?
You keep saying go try something, well, we are trying something. Not only that, but attempting it with as little bias to the results as possible. It's not going to change how you guys think and feel so why do you care to respond at all?
I've received some PM support from others to go ahead and do this becasue they are sitting on the fence as well. As maniac has said, we are trying to see if there is any difference at all. Not describing what's better, which has better treble, which has more bass, etc.. just difference. A lot of people don't want to experiment with cables because of the $$$ involved. If you can show that there is a difference between $0.50 patch cord and $1400 IC's, then they might have the motivation to go explore.
MadMax, Doro, and maniac are all firmly in the "difference" camp and have either shown indifference, or cuirosity and interst. The least you could do is not go on bashing people and name calling.
Everyone here is looking for their own audio truth. Some are just trying a different path than the one you approve of. Everyone is different, let's have a little tolerance.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
I just don't see how anyone can contend there is no difference when there is proof to the contrary.The camp that believes there is no difference will still contend there is no difference.
Do you believe in gravity and the physical laws of motion? Sure you do, because there's proof. Same deal here...if someone can hear a difference 100% of the time...then there's a difference.
Difference is NOT subjective in this case. The amount of difference, or characteristics of the difference and how/if they apply to one's listening and cable choices...sure those are subjective. But the fact that there IS a difference, well there either is or there isn't... -
You know what...nevermind
I now know of four people who've said they aren't going to attend the gathering because of this test, two have stated it publically, two via pm.
If we're gonna start losing people because of this test, then that's just stupid and we shouldn't do it. I'm definitely going to find a way to do this somehow and have the results recorded, but it doesn't have to be at the Polk gathering...
This idea was never meant to bring about this much of a heated discussion. I know we all have different opinions on cables, and each of us has his own cost/benefit ratio that he uses when buying gear. This test was never intended to even address any of that (go back and count how many times I've said that prior to this post, that this test isn't about determining what is better or how much difference there is).
The test was only brought up to demonstrate the fact that there is (or isn't, either way) a difference in cables and how they sound. I've met a bunch of audio gurus in person and online, a good percentage of them contend that there is absolutely NO difference in how cables sound and that high priced cables are a waste of money. The second half of that statement is subjective and not up for debate...the first half is simply ludicrous and can be disproved.
Thatnks for your support guys, you're great!:o -
Originally posted by jdhdiggs
What's with all the "I'm taking my ball and going home" talk? Can't you guys see that some people are just curious and view this as fun?
You keep saying go try something, well, we are trying something. Not only that, but attempting it with as little bias to the results as possible. It's not going to change how you guys think and feel so why do you care to respond at all?
I've received some PM support from others to go ahead and do this becasue they are sitting on the fence as well. As maniac has said, we are trying to see if there is any difference at all. Not describing what's better, which has better treble, which has more bass, etc.. just difference. A lot of people don't want to experiment with cables because of the $$$ involved. If you can show that there is a difference between $0.50 patch cord and $1400 IC's, then they might have the motivation to go explore.
MadMax, Doro, and maniac are all firmly in the "difference" camp and have either shown indifference, or cuirosity and interst. The least you could do is not go on bashing people and name calling.
Everyone here is looking for their own audio truth. Some are just trying a different path than the one you approve of. Everyone is different, let's have a little tolerance.
I'm not calling anyone names, I'm just saying that this particular horse has been beat to death WAY too many times.
I believe that there is equally as much bias in both camps, actually. I fall somewhere in the middle.
Again, not every difference will show up correspondingly on a chart or graph, that's my philosophy. It's up to each of us individually to determine if we can discern the difference and if we can how much importance we assign to it.
I just think it's retarded to keep flogging away at this, it's been done too many times in too many places and the results are ALWAYS the same.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
If a few indivduals want to mess around with a cable demo at the Polkfest, then they will be able to do so.
Since the area will be seperate anyways, how is it affecting anyone else if they want to conduct a simple experiement.
If some of you don't wish to attend, because of this being too formal, then don't attend.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
I am notoriously absent from these debates. However, I'd like to offer my personal observation regarding what I'm after in audio of any kind: tone.
tone (n.) The quality or character of sound.
I'm a guitarist and keyboard player. If I can't get my tone going, I can't play (well, technically, I can play - I simply don't enjoy it.) What contributes to the overall tone in an electric guitar, for example? Everything: construction and material type of the instrument, tuning and intonation, nut, bridge, fret height/width, strings, pickups, pots, switches, internal wiring, external wiring, amplifier design, speakers, cabinet design, and venue. I can change any single factor listed and instantly notice (I believe you could as well) a difference in tone which I can describe with singularity. No science involved, just perception of the quality or character of the sound.
I would submit that what we are all after is tone in our audio systems. Additionally, I'll submit that everything in the signal path is a contributing factor to the quality or character of the sound.
Enjoy the music.
Mike
