Finally, an end to the cable debate!

AsSiMiLaTeD

If you're interested, read the thread linked to below. I'm not going to spell everything out again here, but I just wanted to make everyone aware.

I'm tired of all the talk about cables not being different and all that garbage. Therefore, at the next Polk gathering, I am going to prove beyond doubt that there are differences in sound between different cables by doing a blind test.

Read THIS thread for the details.

Mark, are you gonna put together any type of agenda for this meeting, or is it more informal? I want to make sure that we don't lose sight of this and forget about it. That's also why I'm creating the separate thread - to draw more attention to it.

Two things that this test is not intended to prove:

1 - That there is a LARGE difference in sound quality between cables. I've done this before, and I know for 100% certain that I can hear it. If you can't hear it, that's your issue, not mine.

2 - That one cable is better than the other. 'Better' is completely subjective. I'll prove to you that there is indeed a difference in sound...which one you or I like better isn't the debate.

jdhdiggs

My proposal:

1). Use a shielded splitter at the first outpout that becomes analog (Out of the CDP or DAC) with each cable coming to a shielded passive pre-amp

2). Use each cable as an "in" on the pre. The passive is used as there is no chance of processing differences or internally generated electrical hum

3). High quality interconnects will connect to the amp. The amp will be SS.

4). Highest quality speaker cables will be used to the speakers.

5). For speakers, I would avoid SDA, Maggie, Horn, or Ported designs. At this point, I would suggest sealed 2-way monitors. If the person being tested wants a beefier speaker, a 2.5 way sealed should be used

6). Listener gets to pick the tracks and portion of the track. Each section of music will be repeated at least 8 times and last until the listener wants to repeat or 30 seconds has expired. The switch will stop the music, rewind, and change cables. This should take less than 2 seconds.

At least 4 diffferent tracks would be used.

If more than one person is being tested at the same time, 30 seconds will be used each time.

The IC's to be tested will include low grade patch cord and any other IC of the listeners choice.

As stated, this is not to say what is better or how big of a difference, but rather state that there is a difference.

How's that?

RuSsMaN

Well, I for one will not be attending any more Polk gatherings. The cable debate is endless, those that believe, believe, those that don't, don't.

I for one have no interest is proving anyone right or wrong, based on a few limited components at a gathering. I love how you guys are trying to be scientific, but end up clusterfucking the whole thing. Shielded splitter, you're **** hilarious.

The whole thing is pushing me in another direction, other than Club Polk. Tired head BIG time.

jdhdiggs

Thanks for the suggestions...

Some people might find this fun, informative, and interesting. no one is forcing you to read it. No one is forcing you to participate. Chill out, drink some beer and have some fun...

F1nut

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
The cable debate is endless, those that believe, believe, those that don't, don't.

AMEN!!!

RuSsMaN

Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

Don't even bother typing a response, unless it's something other than 'well, if they make a difference, it should be noticeable on any combo of gear' response. That card is so old and worn out.

Nevermind, I'm done with the subject.

unc2701

Yeah, but at least Polkmaniac is putting his balls on the line. And if he can tell on the proposed rig, I'll get my **** off the fence and into the "cables matter" field. I have an open mind. And he said he'd be willing to use whatever gear, so if he agrees to it, then great.

PolkThug

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

Don't even bother typing a response, unless it's something other than 'well, if they make a difference, it should be noticeable on any combo of gear' response. That card is so old and worn out.

Nevermind, I'm done with the subject.

Let's all call each other names, thats pretty cool.:rolleyes:

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

No problem, PM, you up for it this way instead? The other set-up was for for multiple people at the same time since multiple people have expressed an interest in trying it out.

PM, if you want to do this, what's your current rig and I'll start working on replicating it up here, even if it's at my house.

Let me add this to the whole conversation: for every person who "knows" it makes a difference, there are probably 10 or twenty more that "don't know". Some of these people buy because they feel they should, there are others sitting on the fence because they don't know... If they can experience the difference themselves, or see that someone else can, without a doubt, then maybe this would give them that push that the cable demo program can't.

Not everyone makes six figures on this board so spending $100 on a wire that may or may not make a difference is difficult to justify without some proof beyond "try it, it's obvious" statements that so many throw around.

If you want to avoid CP and CP gatherings because some people are trying to find their own truths, that's your own ballgame. You would be missed though.

2+2

Russman, I think those who believe simply can hear the differences because the difference is there..
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference. This again goes to my thought about a half colorblind person needing corrective lenses commenting on not seeing much differences in color and resolution of different TVs....my point being that no two ears are alike...much like vision is not and we should not expect everyone to hear the differences....especially when the differences are relatively subtle.
(BTW I am partially color blind so no offense).

unc2701

Originally posted by 2+2
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference.

Actually, I think I hear a difference, but I also know ALL about bias and 50 ways to screw a test. I have self doubt, so I want to set up a DB test that'll convince me that it's not just bias (I don't have the gear to do a true ABX on myself). The "not sure"/ "no difference" crowd is ready to see a difference... please, show us you can do it. PolkManiac is willing to do that, good for him.

I think we're all willing to let you set the parameters of the test so long as blinding is maintained, so if you got any proposals, we want to hear them.

PolkThug

Originally posted by 2+2
....those who don't believe honestly and truely cannot hear the differences and that is why they are so adamant about there being no difference.

My computer is in this camp, no speakers or ears in these graphs, just a looped connection:
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27287

jdhdiggs

PT, I would not go that far yet. The fact that the peaks measure out isn't conclusive. You need to add some time axis to make it more accurate. That way you can take any differences in transients if they exist. The only problem then would be how do you compare the results to eachother...

unc2701

Actually, it's a logical problem. It is impossible to prove no difference (you can't win). However, we can say that as yet, no one has proved that there is a difference. So, basically the "cables matter" crowd needs to find just one person who can consistantly distinguish normalized cables in a double blind test.

As a side note, I'm amused that many of these people claim that you cannot hear things which do measurably change the electrical properties of the cables (doubling length doubles resistance; coiling cable changes inductance; etc), yet claim they can distinguish two electrically identical cables.

Again, I think I do hear a difference, but my logical side tells me I'm full of ****.

Early B.

Russ is right -- it's a dead issue. These tests have been done before and no real conclusions have been drawn. Waste of time. It's too subjective an issue, so it's impossible to prove anything.

Edit: unc - we posted at the same time and said basically the same thing. Weird.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Geez Russ, having a bad day?

James, I don't care how you set it up. We can use any rig as long as it's decent.

I did this test at the Tweeter up here on a Yamaha receiver and RTi8 towers and was correct 10/10 times...whatever you want to use is fine by me.

Again, I think we're digressing a bit. We're not talking about if everyone can hear a difference or if $1K cables are worth it...we're talking about if there is in fact a difference. I don't care if we test a thousand people and I'm the only one to hear it. If I hear it 100 out of 100 times with a success rate of 100%, then it must in fact exists...END of STORY...no one in their logical mind can argue with that result...

unc2701

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
If I hear it 100 out of 100 times with a success rate of 100%, then it must in fact exists...END of STORY...no one in their logical mind can argue with that result...

Yeah, all the no diff/ not sure crowd is with you there... talk to your buddies in the "difference" crowd, 'cause it sounds like you're getting a no confidence vote from them.

PolkThug

Originally posted by jdhdiggs
You need to add some time axis to make it more accurate.

Exactly, capture all the detail! I have the software to do this too (although it may be expired now) You can break up a second into X number of slices.

Its a little harder to capture, because as you can imagine, the rate at which the data scrolls up the screen is extremely fast.

I can say with confidence that the max spl peaks are not very different from the cables I have tested.

Regards,
PT

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Early B.
Russ is right -- it's a dead issue. These tests have been done before and no real conclusions have been drawn. Waste of time. It's too subjective an issue, so it's impossible to prove anything.

I refuse to let that statement go without rebuttal. Tell me this: If I can listen and distinguish between two ICs 10 out of 10 or 100 out of 100 times without one failure...how does that NOT prove that there is a difference??

I don't know if this test has ever been done officially, but it does PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that there is a difference in wire. Your logic is flawed if you believe otherwise.

You think it's a dead issue or aren't interested...thats fine. But this is a debate that still rages heavily today, and I think we can put at least one aspect to rest with this test.

phuz

I love how you guys are trying to be scientific, but end up clusterfucking the whole thing. Shielded splitter, you're **** hilarious.

BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Forget the cable crap. The horse is dead, burried, and decomposing. Read a book about Schrodingers cat.

PolkThug

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I did this test at the Tweeter up here on a Yamaha receiver and RTi8 towers and was correct 10/10 times...whatever you want to use is fine by me.

I'm not sure if I should be envious or glad I don't hear a difference. So, what interconnects do you use now?

Also, do you think its possible you could train someone how to listen better. (Kind of like how I train people at work how to be critical of video displays)

Regards,
PT

Kudos again, for stepping up to the plate.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by unc2701
Yeah, all the no diff/ not sure crowd is with you there... talk to your buddies in the "difference" crowd, 'cause it sounds like you're getting a no confidence vote from them.

I can see that...I'm sure they're nervous that I'm FOS and that this may hurt their (our) position that there does exist a difference in cables.

Fair enough, I shall have their confidence in due time.

Plus it sounds like some people (Russ, Early B, more I'm sure) just don't give a rats ****. That's fine and they're perfectly entitled to their apathy. However, I'm dead set on disproving this particular accusation.

unc2701

Come to think of it, I'm going to join the Rat's **** crowd.

Ok let say you buy the world's most badass cables and run them against your old ones:
1) You hear no diff. **** it, dude, your stereo is perfect to you.
2) You hear a diffence, but you're full of ****, it's just bias. **** it, if it sounds better to you, you got your money's worth.
3) You hear a difference and there is, in truth, a difference. Again, you got your money's worth.

Yeah, so I'm going to go jerk off to a picture of some Kimbers... but I'll hate myself in the morning.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by PolkThug
I'm not sure if I should be envious or glad I don't hear a difference. So, what interconnects do you use now?

Also, do you think its possible you could train someone how to listen better. (Kind of like how I train people at work how to be critical of video displays)

Regards,
PT

Kudos again, for stepping up to the plate.

I use Audioquest DiamondBacks. I'm not saying they're the best, they are just the ones that I prefer the most in my price range. I have yet to hear Signal Cable though.

And also, I'm not claiming to be an expert on cables...not even close. There are guys on here that have probably heard more cables than I know exist...but I CAN tell the difference between them...

As to your question of training a person to hear that...I'm really not sure. Can people be trained to hear 'better' and to hear certain things? Sure they can. It's called Ear Training, and every college that I'm aware of has it as a required part of their music program, usually at least a couple years' worth. Now, can I train someone to hear the differences in cable...I really don't know and have never tried. Granted that their ears are good enough, I suppose so, because I'd just be teaching them what to listen for. But if their ears aren't sensitive enough, then I can 'teach' them what to listen for, but they'd never be able to 'learn' it. For instance, I have pretty bad vision, even today. Sure you could teach me about macroblocking and the chroma bug...but if I can't see well enough to 'see' it, then I'll never get it...if that makes sense.

For the record, I've never met anyone who has near as good ears as I do. I know a couple other people with perfect pitch, but no one with near the sensitivity as I have. I expect that, given the pool of individuals we have here, we'll find another person or two, if not more, that also have excellent and sensitive hearing. We shall see.

jdhdiggs

It sounds like they care, otherwise they wouldn't read it or post. I don't car about the CA stuff, so I don't post there. That simple...

I'm in UNC's camp. I think I've heard differences, but I was expecting and wanting to. I hope we can do this and PM does what he claims.

If there are differences, they certainly aren't as night and day as tubes/ss, speakers, or sources.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by unc2701
Come to think of it, I'm going to join the Rat's **** crowd.

Ok let say you buy the world's most badass cables and run them against your old ones:
1) You hear no diff. **** it, dude, your stereo is perfect to you.
2) You hear a diffence, but you're full of ****, it's just bias. **** it, if it sounds better to you, you got your money's worth.
3) You hear a difference and there is, in truth, a difference. Again, you got your money's worth.

Yeah, so I'm going to go jerk off to a picture of some Kimbers... but I'll hate myself in the morning.

I could not agree with you more. That is a perfect way to think of things. However, I'm one of those people who just won't let it go. If the statement was "Well, there's not much of a difference" or "WE can't hear a difference" or "any minute difference isn't worth your money"...then fine, you've stated your opinion and that's fine.

But to say something like "IT's scientific fact, there is NO difference, if you think there's a difference, then you're wrong, you're a fool for spending your money". Well, that's just wrong and inaccurate and I'm set on proving that...

madmax

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Here's a suggestion numbnuts, how about using gear that the individual listener is familar with, so they might be more aware of any changes (subtle or not) in sound?

Russ has brought up something here that most people dismiss. You must be familiar with the sound of a system over time and material. I have thought about this many times but wasn't in the mood to get into it.

I went to F1's to get a good demo and it took about an hour to comprehend and adjust to the sound of the room acoustics, a few more hours to become one with the equipment and about 4 more to play enough material to really understand many of the finer characteristics. Early on we switched to some other cables and I could hear the difference and told him exactly the same thing he thought but that was because the cables were dramaticly different. Same brand but very different characteristics. He kept switching them around and since they looked the same I was afraid he would catch me making the wrong choice but after a few times I gained confidence because there were many differences.

Any one who thinks they can hear one, hear the other then do an a-b test in less than several hours to a day is claiming to be more of a listener than they probably are. Lots of problems crop up because the average person does not know what to listen for or even how to listen as far as that goes.

madmax

dorokusai

PM - Sorry, I naturally skipped the thread due to the topic. I'm more than willing to have a simple rig setup so that easy changes can occur. We'll run double blind testing and let it ride.

This debate has been going on forever....long before Polk Thug and his magical software....long before the Polkie's with EE degrees....etc etc.

It's not at all a no confidence vote as I simply don't care what anyone thinks about what I hear on my gear. Why should I? Isn't that logical? I certainly relish compliments, constructive criticism and/or negative comments but in the end....the rig is the rig, nothing more nothing less.

I buy my gear based on my own research, experience and demo....I don't ask anyone, on any forum what they think I should buy....problem solved.

jdhdiggs

Thanks Mark!

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by madmax
Any one who thinks they can hear one, hear the other then do an a-b test in less than several hours to a day is claiming to be more of a listener than they probably are.

Well I guess we'll find out in September...:D

You give me a couple minutes with each cable on said gear, and I'll be ready to go...each cable will have it's own unique sound...all I need is a couple minutes to figure out what that is...

shack

I certainly didn't start this debate, but I may be somewhat responsible for the latest reincarnation (well maybe the 10 Audio Lies got it started and my speaker cables arriving was coincidence). My point was I heard the effects of burn in, or lack thereof and not necessarily the difference in cables (which I also agree with due to my own experience). If you recall, my comments about the whole thing was that I did not care what anyone else said, did, replied etc... I was simply reporting what I heard. Not that the discussions haven't been entertaining...but bottom line is it just doesn't matter. I am very much like Doro on this one. I have never asked anyone about how something sounds before I purchase it. My experience with the gear is all that matters. I didn't ask for any discussion, and if no one had posted that would have been ok. If PM wants to do his thing at the PF...it's all good...but it will have no effect on what I believe. This isn't a matter of non-support. If he is 1,000 for 1,000 of if he is 0 for 100 my views will not change and it will not reinforce my belief or raise doubts either way.