The EV Hate Thread

maxward

^^^That would be a marriage made in heaven.

F1nut

EV's, a solution looking for a problem.

tonyb

I was reading an article the other day about another aspect that rarely gets talked about when discussing EV's....insurance costs. I guess, using Tesla as an example, the cyber truck which is one of the more expensive in the Tesla model lineup, costs about 3400 per year to insure. Not chump change right. Now the cheapest model, the model 3, happens to be the most expensive to insure at 4500 per year.

Tell me again, about all that money your saving on gas ?

pitdogg2

To fix the bumper on the Rivian RT1 truck, it's about $18,000.

billbillw

Ok, guys, the Cybertruck and Rivian are extreme examples. With a clean driving record and no recent claims, you can insure a Hyundai Ioniq 6 for less than $1200/year which is around what I pay for my Ford Maverick. People don't buy expensive Teslas to save money.
Also, I think the number from Tony for the Model 3 is not accurate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/15v5z7o/what_is_your_insurance_cost/
Lots of folks in that thread paying $100/month or less.

tonyb

Insurance rates always vary, depending on locations, right ? So give or take a few hundred bucks is normal. I used Tesla as the example because....they are the most popular selling EV. You'll see way more Tesla's on the road than Hyundai EV's.

Repair facilities for Hyundai are also more available, Tesla, not so much. Takes a lot less to total a Tesla, which might weigh heavily on the insurance costs.

invalid

The cybertruck uses a cast aluminum frame, which would definitely be expensive to replace.

sucks2beme

Worse than accident repair costs- long parts lead times.
If you can't drive the car for months, that's a problem.
A lot of vehicles other than Tesla at least have some common
body parts and accessories.

billbillw

tonyb wrote: »

Insurance rates always vary, depending on locations, right ? So give or take a few hundred bucks is normal. I used Tesla as the example because....they are the most popular selling EV. You'll see way more Tesla's on the road than Hyundai EV's.

Repair facilities for Hyundai are also more available, Tesla, not so much. Takes a lot less to total a Tesla, which might weigh heavily on the insurance costs.

A few hundred, yes. You said $4500 per year for a Model 3. I pointed to an owner group with many paying under $1500/year. That's more than a few hundred.

Jstas

Here in NJ, Teslas are expensive to insure. No one I know has a less than a $3K a year insurance premium. I think I saw the average was around $4200 a year.

It's the area, though, as even in the lower density southern part of the state, it's still high. But, also, a local police department published accident rates right before Thanksgiving like they do every year with their safe holiday driving campaign. The #1 car in the area that got into accidents a lot was the Toyota Camry followed closely by the Ford F-150. Both of those make sense due to just numbers on the road. They are the best selling car and the best selling truck by a very large margin so the odds of one of them being involved in an accident is pretty good. I mean, you have a 2 car accident and your chances of hitting or getting hit by a Camry or an F-150 are almost 50/50 compared with the other makes/models out there. Move to a multi-car accident and it's almost guaranteed that one of the vehicles involved will be an F-150 or a Camry.

But, #3 on the list from the police department? Tesla Model Y.

The Model 3 that the Y is based on was listed at #6.

The Cybertruck is storming up the ranks, though. Some of the discussion was the "gawk factor" for the Cybertruck and, well, anything Tesla because people get distracted looking at them. Additionally, Tesla has made the cars more about a technological experience than actually driving as the #1 car driven by distracted drivers in the area is a Tesla anything, really. I think that list showed the X and Y tied at the top and the Model 3 in 4th place behind the Camry. So Tesla took 3 of the top 4 spots there.

So despite there being an inordinate amount of Teslas on the road here compared to other areas I've been, they account for more than their statistical fair share of accidents. Given that, the insurance companies push rates up as the statistics show that a Tesla owner of any kind is more likely to have an accident of some kind so they are a high risk vehicle. With the cost of repairs, that pushes the premiums up too 'cause you don't think the insurance company cuts into their profits to pay for your screw up, do you?

Keep in mind that this is the Burlington County area of NJ, south of Trenton. YMMV in your part of the country. But if it's that bad in Burlington County with a population density of 560 pipls per square mile imagine how bad it is up in Bergen County where the population density is 3,900 pipls per square mile and the median household income topped $110K because the majority of the population are folks who work in NYC at cushy, high dollar office jobs and less than 5% of the 1M people there live below the poverty line. There's high dollar electric vehicles everywhere in that county as well as large, high dollar SUVs and they probably annihilate each other in collisions on a daily basis up there.

They would probably kill for $4200 a year for car insurance. They probably pay north of $6K a year for a single Tesla Model S and a spotless driving record with a perfect credit score.

billbillw

Jstas wrote: »

Here in NJ, Teslas are expensive to insure. No one I know has a less than a $3K a year insurance premium. I think I saw the average was around $4200 a year.

Am I reading that everyone has rates of $3K per year on non Tesla cars? If so, that definitely skews things. A great reason not to live in NJ.

Jstas

billbillw wrote: »

Jstas wrote: »

Here in NJ, Teslas are expensive to insure. No one I know has a less than a $3K a year insurance premium. I think I saw the average was around $4200 a year.

Am I reading that everyone has rates of $3K per year on non Tesla cars? If so, that definitely skews things. A great reason not to live in NJ.

You are reading incorrectly.

I am talking solely about Teslas.

I know several people with Teslas of all types. I'm sorry I'm blowing holes in your bubble here but the person I know with the lowest premium rate pays $3086 a year for full coverage on a leased Tesla Model 3 and she's a stay at home mom who averages less than 5,000 miles a year in her Tesla Model 3 and she actually lives in Atlantic County near the edge of Burlington County in a town called Sweetwater. Her husband drives a Cadillac Escalade and that's leased too but he puts 12K+ miles on it every year traveling to his business locations. Even at that, he told me his insurance on the Escalade is about $3600 a year. And my "real world" numbers are from people I know personally either through work, Boy Scouts or personal friends. I have found their rates to be indicative of NJ as a whole and very representative of the areas they live in within NJ.

As a contrast, I know someone with a Tesla Model S as his only car. He has a hybrid work situation where he goes to the office one week on, one week at home. So he averages about 7500 miles a year but he owns the car and rents his house. His insurance rate living in Hainesport, NJ in Burlington County is about $6400 a year. Granted, his driving record isn't the cleanest but he pays 3 times as much for his Model S insurance as I do for the Navigator's insurance. He's one of the highest payers that I know of with only two being higher, one topping $7200 a year because of 2 accidents with their 3 year old Model X. But the average of the dozen or so folks is around $4200 a year. Take the one lady with the $3100 a year rate out and the average moves up above $4500 a year.

The further south or northwest you go in the state, the lower the population levels and the lower the rates.

State-wide for New Jersey, the average cost of insuring a Tesla Model 3 is about $3,000 which is 11-12% higher than the average in NJ for car insurance in general. Nation-wide, the average for a Model 3 is about $2600 a year which jives with NJ being 11-12% above the national average, still pretty high comparatively, though. Keep in mind, though, that $3,000 for NJ is a state-wide average and NJ, while populous, is fairly lightly populated in many areas so the average skews towards the more densely populated areas. To be in the top 10 most populous counties in NJ, you have to have 510K+ people. Of the 10 top counties, 60%+ of NJ's population resides in them. There's 11 more counties with significantly less people and no major population areas like Burlington, Camden, Essex or Mercer counties which have major cities in one end of the county and very rural areas on the other end.

A clean record and good credit in NJ gets you right around the average at $3K a year for a Model 3 in my local area in NJ but, if you have an accident or points on your license the state-wide average at that point is over $4,700 and around $5K a year for my local area.

NJ averages about $249 a month for insurance across all Tesla models which is right around the $3K mark. The Model 3 and Model Y have lower rates than the S, X and Cybertruck so they skew it a bit. But the fancier Teslas all seem to be above $4K a year for an average with the Model 3 and Y being right at $3K on average. Comparatively, the cheapest EV in NJ is the already mention Hyundai Ionic 6 which Zebra shows an average in NJ state-wide of about $780 for 6 months on a brand new Ionic 6. My local area in NJ, it's closer to $1150 for 6 months so a little under $2300 a year. Which, again, jives with the population density of my area.

If I lived about 15 miles southeast of where I am now, insurance would drop about a grand, across the board, for any vehicle I'd have to insure. But that also puts me significantly farther away from potential employment so while I might save on the base rate, the yearly mileage would erase at least 50% of that $1,000 savings.

billbillw

I don't have a bubble to burst, but you are leaving out some key information. What are typical rates for non-EVs? You mentioned an Escalade, but that's a high value vehicle as well.

Edit: reading your post closer, it seems to say that the Model 3 runs 11% higher on average. That is not the huge 200-300% jump that Tony was showing.

Jstas

Those numbers are probably really confusing. Here's a breakdown to hopefully make better sense.

Nationally, for a Model 3/Y
- Average is about $2600 for a Model 3
- NJ, at an actual calculated average for a Model 3 is about $2880, 11% higher
- Average for a Model Y is about $2900
- NJ, at an actual calculated average for a Model 3 is about $3190 which is about 11% higher

Statewide NJ for a Model 3
- Average is about $2900

Statewide NJ for a Model Y
- Average is about $3200

Nationally for a Tesla Model S it's about $3800 a year
Statewide NJ for a Model S is about $4200 a year, 11-12% more

The numbers for a Model X are about the same as a Model S

In Burlington County, the averages, not the lowest prices, the averages for a Tesla Model 3/Y are:
- Model 3 will cost about $3200 a year
- Model Y will cost about $3400 a year

In Burlington County for a Tesla Model S/X
- Model S will cost about $4500 a year
- Model X will cost about $4600 a year

Cyber trucks are over $5K in NJ no matter where you are. Probably due to the stainless steel body and frame design driving collision costs WAY up.

The statewide averages favor the Model 3/Y because, apparently, for:
- Every Tesla Model S, there are 4.7 Model 3's
- Every Tesla Model X, there are 3.4 Model 3's
- Every Tesla Cybertruck there are 16.8 Model 3's
- Every Tesla Model S, there are 5.2 Model Y's
- Every Tesla Model X, there are 3.9 Model Y's
- Every Tesla Cybertruck, there are 15.4 Model Ys

So when you take the average insurance rates across the state, the lower costs of the Model 3/Y combined with the numbers advantage the Model 3/Y over the S/X/Cybertruck, the costs average out around $3000-$3100 a year.

The rural areas of NJ have comparatively lower income demographics so the expensive Model S, Model X and Cybertruck sales are concentrated around the population centers where they will have higher insurance rates overall because the collision risk is higher. So, there's WAY more Model 3's and Y's in the lower cost areas than there are X/Y/Cybertruck and that skews their average down because they have more data points in the $3200 or less range. They still have lower data points in the populated areas too so by raw statistics, the Model 3/Y skews to their average rather than overall. If the stats were weighted, it would probably show a more accurate picture but they don't sell insurance in NJ based on the state average but what your locality is and where you drive to regularly so that's how they quote and sell and that's the only numbers I have to go on.

Also, it seems that in 2024, NJ had more Teslas in it than any other state except California and New York. I haven't been able to verify that outside of some Reddit posts but it seems 3 of the highest insurance rate states are skewing the national average for Teslas overall. Additionally, because a significant amount of Teslas are in high risk areas, they deplete collision repair resources for everyone else too and that drives overall cost up for everyone, across the board.

Jstas

billbillw wrote: »

I don't have a bubble to burst, but you are leaving out some key information. What are typical rates for non-EVs? You mentioned an Escalade, but that's a high value vehicle as well.

Edit: reading you post closer, it seems to say that the Model 3 runs 11% higher on average. That is not the huge 200-300% jump that Tony was showing.

Comparatively to other vehicles, researching Tesla alone is time consuming, I'm not bothering with the rest. You can look that up yourself. Especially since much of the search results are centered around people complaining about the high insurance rates on Teslas. It's hard to weed out the facts from the whining. I actually signed up for a Zebra account with a burner email to research the numbers.

NJ, on average for ALL vehicles (including EVs) compared to nation-wide rates:
- Full/Comprehensive coverage is 8-17% higher than the national average, depends on what levels of liability coverage your comprehensive coverage comes with
- Liability only - NJ doesn't have a fair comparison as NJ did away with liability only insurance coverage several years ago. But since many states still carry basic/liability, NJ is 59% above the national average for minimum coverage requirements

Now, tonyb lives out near Chicago and I can tell you that despite Illinois being fairly reasonable overall, the Chicago metropolitan area is significantly higher than the surrounding areas and more on-par with NJ's crazy rates. So, I can see a very significant jump being reality in the Chicago area.

pitdogg2

Now, tonyb lives out near Chicago and I can tell you that despite Illinois being fairly reasonable overall, the Chicago metropolitan area is significantly higher than the surrounding areas and more on-par with NJ's crazy rates. So, I can see a very significant jump being reality in the Chicago area.

I live in the middle of Illinois, about 3 hrs from Tony. My insurance rates for liability only has gone up the last 5 yrs. I was paying way less than $1000 a year for 2 vehicles, a 2009 Lincoln MKZ and a 2003 F-150. I'm now at 1200+ with no claims of any kind, EVER. My last ticket by a speedtrap camera in Iowa for 77 mph in a 70 mph zone, the first ticket in over 10yrs.

Insurance has gone up dramatically since Covid. My house insurance has added another $1000 to its cost in the last 5 yrs. I keep looking every time it comes up for renewal. I can find it cheaper but only a few dollars and not worth switching for less insurance coverage than I have and not to mention NOW I'll be dealing with and AI chatbot every time I need to reach out to the new insurance company. Those chatbots should be illegal.

invalid

Tesla's are more expensive to insure nationwide. The model s is the ninth most expensive to insure, and the other ten luxury sedans have a much larger MSRP.

audioluvr

I just saw a cybertruck today in town parked where I could walk right up to it and do a walk around. Some lady saw me staring at it and asked if I was wanting to buy one. I said "No maam. That there is the ugliest thing to ever exist on four wheels" She just giggled and said "I agree" and walked off.

halen

Auto insurance and home insurance varies based on where you reside.

Rates in Oklahoma for family with no driving violations or claims. This is 2024 rate. These are actual rates from what my siblings pay there.

2023 Tesla Model X, fully loaded option insured for $1200 a year.

2021 Tesla Model 3, fully loaded option insured for $680 a year.

Down in Texas, I had the Tesla Model X for less than a week, it would have cost me almost 3x the rate in Oklahoma.

I returned the X, not because I did not like it, it was not the right one for me. I have the EV9 in mind. Great for short weekend getaways with V2L outlets

Cheers!

halen

mrbigbluelight

🤔 Hmmm....with what sort of deductible ?

Raise that deductible to $50K and I think we can get those payments down to $250/year.

halen

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

🤔 Hmmm....with what sort of deductible ?

Raise that deductible to $50K and I think we can get those payments down to $250/year.

Instead of debating what insurance costs actually are and its deductibles...

Maybe the days of true research is dead now. Instead let's take online forums as gospel.

I suggest, with respect on my end, contact your own insurance company and ask. I may purchase a Tesla, how much would it cost to insure it? Location impacts price.

Simple enough. Yeah?

My purchase decisions are not based on bragging rights and go cheap on insurance coverage.

Cheers mate.

mrbigbluelight

Simple enough. Yeah?

Well....no.🤔

2 points if I may, Sir
(or Madam)
.1. You have real world
experience.Share.
2. I'm not going to bug my agent with a non-existent hypothetical.
3. Must I have to re-emphasize that I'm lazy.?

BTW here's a little helpful hint: Guess what Blackrock, Vanguard, and State Street are going to say regarding your TESLA insurance rates come, oh, January ? 🤔🫣