The curse of the Treitz, expanding a networking journey

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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Then what is the advantage? Maybe I'm missing something here, which of course, would not be surprising. I haven't had my morning coffee yet...

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    Essentially the switch wouldn't have a built in power supply, which technically a switch doesn't have a built in power supply anyways so.... I can't really see an advantage myself but I also like to eat crayons.

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 320
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    I'd keep looking for a used EtherRegen. Would guess more will be available as the v.2 release gets closer. That said, I'm using the ER stock PS, but I have a 12V/3A TeraDak (intended for a router) that I'm going to try on the ER. If there's significant improvement, I can always get another for the router.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    Dr_Wu wrote: »
    I'd keep looking for a used EtherRegen. Would guess more will be available as the v.2 release gets closer. That said, I'm using the ER stock PS, but I have a 12V/3A TeraDak (intended for a router) that I'm going to try on the ER. If there's significant improvement, I can always get another for the router.

    Same here, I just missed a used ER couple days ago. I under bid and he went with the full price offer. I simply asked if he'd include shipping. I was willing to pay the PP fees.

    I also talked to a guy in the UK that was selling one, but he wouldn't ship to the US. I can wait for the v2, but it seems it will be a bit different.

    I guess we're all competing for the same used v1........lol.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    I just bought a 2nd linear PS for my modem, am running a linear PS on the router already. This weekend I'm going to upgrade the internals on my Blue Node 3 so I can use a linear PS I was using on my SQB Touch.

    The LPS I'm running on the router is a dual output 12V 25w 3A unit, but when I ran both the modem and router the thing got really hot, too hot for my liking. So I just bought a 2nd one the same as the first and I'll run (2) separate units.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    treitz3 wrote: »

    Thanks Tom, I've been using HiFi Shark, but this one didn't show up....weird.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Yeah, Hi-Fi Shark doesn't detect/show new listings for about a day or so. That Velcro can easily be removed but the residue will not be so easy. There is a workaround for that though (unless you want to keep it on there). Get an "Air Freshener" and use it for off label use. It looks just like the picture below.

    xtynff4oubbm.png

    Let the liquid sit on the unit for about 5 minutes and it will wipe all of the residual residue off. BTW, be forewarned....the EtherREGEN does run very hot. This is normal. Mine averages about 105 degrees and according to the owner of UpTone, the heat generated does not affect the components within the unit. IIRC, DK's ER runs at about the same temp.

    When questioned about the high temps and adding a heat sink to prolong the life of the device, the owner of UpTone stated that it was unnecessary but if you feel the need to feel better about it, feel free to waste your money. I tried a heat sink for mine but it didn't help weigh the thing down, so I returned it along with the heat sink pads. I might actually use his Velcro idea but place it on the bottom of the unit to keep it down. He did mention that putting something on top of the ER will make it run even hotter, which may affect it in the long term.

    He did mention that the failure rates due to heat were either non-existent or negligible. Something to that effect. He mentioned this on his sponsored forum over at Audiophile Style, way down in the depths of a 2 or 300 page thread. Seeing how some people weigh these things down creating even more heat, I found that to be insightful.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Dr_Wu wrote: »
    I'd keep looking for a used EtherRegen. Would guess more will be available as the v.2 release gets closer. That said, I'm using the ER stock PS, but I have a 12V/3A TeraDak (intended for a router) that I'm going to try on the ER. If there's significant improvement, I can always get another for the router.

    One thing I have discovered in all of the configurations on my streaming rig is that it is more beneficial to the end result if you put your best equipment at the tail end of the signal (just before the NAP). I can't speak for how it will work in your rig but if your experience mimics mine, there should be an improvement.

    Then, of course, there is the argument that a router is a superb noise generating item. So, at the end of the day, it may work better in the current location. Experimenting is the only way to find out. What works for one may not necessarily work with another, especially with all of the configuration, gear and noise variables.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    I just bought it at FULL price. I never pay asking, but in this case after having lost one over $25, I figured what the hell!

    Thanks for the advice on removing the velcro/glue.

    I will say not having used Audiogon in about 7 years, I had to jump through a lot of hoops to make a purchase. I was worried I miss it over all the BS and error messages.

    But it worked out.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    I guess I won't change out the power supply this weekend in the Node 3. I'll wait until after I evaluate the ER. I don't want to change things up too much. It makes it hard to evaluate individual upgrades.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
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    Congrats! Yes!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 756
    edited March 2023
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    LHY audio sw-8 is the switch I went with
    Very good reviews.
    High quality 8-ports Network Switch housed in CNC Milled Aluminium Chassis, powered by Ultra-Low-Noise Linear Power Supply, Clock by OCXO (Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator).

    LHY Audio SW-8
    Based on Linksys LGS108 8-Port Business Desktop Gigabit Switch, LHY SW-8 is designed for critical audiophiles who seek refinement in Digital Music Streaming.



    Designed and hand-built by highly skilled electronics crews by LHY Audio

    Purpose built for High End Audio System

    Engineered by Audiophile for Audiophile

    The chassis of SW-8 is milled out of an Aluminium Block. Three(3) compartments spotted within the chassis to segregate the AC mains, DC regulators, and the Ethernet Switch main board.

    CNC Milled
    Aluminum Block Chassis
    High Speed DC Rectifier
    High Precision OCXO
    Multi-Stage LDO DC Power
    Linksys Business Grade
    Ethernet Switch
    Talema Encapsulated AC Transformer
    AC Mains EMI Noise Filter
    Engineered
    for
    Audiophile
    Filtered AC Mains stepped down by an Encapsulated Tamale AC Transformer, Rectified DC further Regulated by Multi-stages of Low Drop Out (LDO) Regulators to supply Ultra-Low-Noise (<uV) to the OCXO, low level DC3.3V, DC1.2V for the Ethernet Switch.



    Replaced built-in crystal of LGS108 with High quality SC-CUT Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator with ultra low noise PLL circuitry

    Unified Aluminium Block Chassis

    Multi-Stage LDO DC Power

    Filtered AC Mains Power

    High Precision OCXO



  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2710434/#Comment_2710434 - Read this and the following post - FWIW

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
    edited March 2023
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    For reference Linksys LGS108: 8-Port Business Desktop Gigabit Ethernet Unmanaged Switch, Computer Network, Wired Connection Speed up to 1,000 Mbps (Black, Blue) https://a.co/d/7aHvY79

    This is the one I am using with a power supply, I like it because it's very heavy and doesn't move around with the heavy cables
    NETGEAR Nighthawk S8000 8-Port Gigabit Smart Managed Plus Gaming Switch (GS808E) - Low Latency for Responsive Streaming, Cool-touch Zinc-alloy Desktop Housing, Fanless for Quiet Operation https://a.co/d/aVxyxNA
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,225
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    Let me ask a quick question to use the expertise in this thread.

    My networking setup.

    Net gear Cm2000 Modem
    >Netgear Orbi AC3000 mesh router

    Listening room
    Netgear Orbi Mesh Satellite
    > Lumin U2 mini via AQ Cinammon Ethernet

    Where is money best spent here? LPS for the satellite that is feeding the Lumin? Would a LPS for the Router/Modem downstairs even matter given they are on a different circuit m?

    Due to cabling constraints, the router and modem cannot be relocated to the listening room without rerunning the cable coax

    Not doing this anytime soon but seeing as a lot of folks are doing these upgrades here, might make sense at some point to pick up an affordable LPS
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,212
    edited March 2023
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    You need to remove all switching power supplies as that noise enters the stream
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Hi, Zach. If I was running your system, my first move would be a LPS for the Lumin U2 mini (would need an adapter as well for the DC PC). That's just what I would do.
    stangman67 wrote: »
    Would a LPS for the Router/Modem downstairs even matter given they are on a different circuit?

    In my experience, yes. Everything....literally everything makes a difference. Please do not expect everything to be night and day. These differences (some big) are more of "removing" than adding. I wasn't really expecting anything to make a change at the Modem/Router area (my setup mimics yours with location(s)) I was pleasantly surprised when I added the upgraded items upstream of the router. From the power supplies, to the E cable to the modem.

    In my system (each system/setup/configuration is different), I found it better to concentrate the best gear at the tail end of the system, right before the NAP and leave/utilize the worst gear towards the front end. With that said, I was surprised at what the Shunyata Alpha (filtered E cable) did in between the modem and the router, so my opinion may change over time, as I upgrade the front end even more. I just don't think at this point that there is room for improvement....although I have thought that before and was corrected after a change.
    stangman67 wrote: »
    Due to cabling constraints, the router and modem cannot be relocated to the listening room without rerunning the cable coax

    No worries there. I have the same restraints as you. Turns out that you and I have what they call a natural "moat", if you will. Auralic actually suggests that you configure the streamer this way, as it breaks the hardwired contact and all of the noise that is carried along with it. If your signal is strong and you aren't sending packets back and forth, then there is no issue. Don't ever feel that you are missing out just because you aren't hardwired. Trust me when I say that I'm not missing a thing. That and my signal is crystal clear...as evidenced by what I hear and what the system is capable of now. I am not bottle necked at all due to not having a hardwired connection.

    Let me throw this out there for all who are wondering....

    When it comes to changes in your streaming network, with every upgrade, you will not hear a significant difference. Some upgrades are subtle but distinguishable. Others, like the Muon or the Shunyata cables are undeniably for the better on all aspects (especially that Muon....Holy smokes Batman!).

    Most of the time, I noticed a slightly higher volume level, more "air", sharper imaging, better depth/height/3D imaging and less digital artifacts. The more you work on your streaming setup, the better these aspects all get. At some point you will just sit down and listen and ask yourself, "Why didn't I do this sooner"? It just sounds great.

    The less digital noise you have, the more you combat latency, the more noise is rejected/isolated and the purer the signal gets - this will allow to to turn the volume up well beyond what you were previously able to do. And I do mean well beyond. You'll know it when you hear it (or in this case,when you DON'T hear it). One other added note.....the lower registers become unfathomably clear with incredible texture.

    Please don't expect that just because you bought an E cable or a LPS that the system will all of a sudden sound phenomenal. It's a cumulative effect.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
    edited March 2023
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    Dr_Wu wrote: »
    I'd keep looking for a used EtherRegen.

    https://audiophilestyle.com/classifieds/item/2535-etherregen-with-ultracap-lps-12/

    Here ya' go. Buy two, sell one. Don't ask me what an Ultracap LPS is though. Not familiar with them but they couldn't hurt, especially over a Wal-Wart PS.

    Tom

    Post edited by treitz3 on
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
    edited March 2023
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    Ultracap LPS is their linear power supply if one doesn't want to use the power supply supplied with the ER.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    "Their" LPS, as in UpTone?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    "Their" LPS, as in UpTone?

    Tom

    Yes, one was discontinued for an upgraded version.

    They had 3 now 2.

    https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1

    https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    Thanks, H9. I did not know this.

    Okay, fellas, I can't find the thread to where the discussion was going with how all of this makes sense...Dan (@Mantis) was on the thread and could not understand how all of this stuff works.

    Here is a link to a post offered up over at the WBF that explains what we are hearing better than I could even begin to explain it. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/what-ethernet-cables-are-members-using.27353/post-860422

    (Posts #418-420)

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,102
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    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    That's the thread I thought of. I looked at that one and a couple of others but could not find it.

    Oh well, hopefully Dan will run across this thread and click on the link. That's some great information that explains things much better than I could......and in a more concise way than if you were to research it yourself, which is what I exhaustively ended up doing.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,477
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    This all is reminding me of cryptocurrency. The more you talk about it, the higher the price gets.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
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    So for testing, I took the EtherREGEN out of the chain and going directly from my deco 6e with a sbooser power supplu, to the Innuos zen mk3 using Qobuz for music. Soundstage collapsed, everything sounds further away and, i can definitely hear the clarity difference. After about 30 minutes, i had to put it back in. I then took the RAL Ethernet back out and put the Supra back in. That lasted a whole 10 minutes and put the RAL back in. Brad might be slow but makes a very good ethernet cable. His usb cable is also fantastic.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
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    I forgot to mention, I still need to check out that muon pro. That has been on my mind to test.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,527
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    If that does to your system what it did to Trey's and mine? You are gonna LOVE that thing!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~